So i started working on this tractor last year. Every step forward has come with a step or two back and this is no exception. I had the generator rebuilt and vr tested, Replaced the solenoid, new 1g battery cable and a new battery. Now the tractor dies within 10 minutes or so. Before the generator was rebuilt, it would run close to 30 minutes before it would die. Somewhere something is draining the battery. I checked for obvious bare wire/mouse damage and saw none. I'm electrically handicapped... to say the least. With that being said, where would you start looking?
Bruce (VA)
Well-known Member
" where would you start looking? "
I'd narrow the problem down to spark or fuel. You haven't done that. You've just assumed it's spark.
It is important for you to tell us if the distributor is on the front of the engine or on the side. The troubleshooting is different based upon the configuration of your engine.
It takes three things for an engine to run: spark at the right time, compression, & fuel/air in the right mixture. For the moment, forget about compression & concentrate on narrowing the problem down to spark or fuel.
There are three very important tools you always need to have in your N tool box: a 3 inch piece of wire w/ alligator clips on each end, a spark checker w/ an adjustable gap (* see below) and a 7/16 box end wrench. (see tip # 50 at the link below) And, you really do need a working ammeter on the tractor; it is a very important diagnostic tool. With these tools, you can quickly narrow down most N problems to spark or fuel.
Next time it stops, check quickly for fuel (** see below) then spark. When I say quickly, I mean get off the seat, grab the tools & do it right then. Do not wait a minute or two. First, check for fuel. Get a can & put it under the carb. Remove the bolt in the bottom of the carb; as long as the fuel is turned on, you should see gas flowing out of the carb. Let it run for at least 30 seconds. If it’s a dribble, or runs for 5 seconds & stops, or none at all, you have solved half the problem: it’s fuel related. If gas flows well out of the carb & only stops when you turn it off at the sediment bowl, chances are very good it’s not a fuel problem. So, next, turn the key on, crank the engine & look at the ammeter. What is the needle doing? Does it show a constant discharge, no movement at all, or does it move back & forth slightly? Next, hook up your spark checker, turn the key on & crank the engine. If the spark jumps the 1/4” gap, you probably don’t have a spark problem. If it won’t jump the ¼” gap, you have a spark problem. If the ammeter needle shows a constant discharge, or doesn’t move at all, that also tells you that you have a spark problem. Jump the ignition switch w/ your jumper wire & see what happens. If it runs, you found the problem. If it doesn’t have spark after you jump the ignition switch, post back for more info on further troubleshooting. (and do not forget to turn the ignition switch off; see tip # 38)
If it does not have gas coming out of the carb at a steady stream w/ the bolt out for at least 30 seconds, you have a fuel problem. First, remove the gas cap. Your vent could be clogged & it vacuum locked. If that doesn’t work, tap the carb bowl w/ a hammer handle in case the float is sticking closed. (don’t whack it w/ the head of the hammer; you can crack the bowl). If you still don’t see gas flowing, the N has three fuel screens; one in the brass elbow, one in the top of the sediment bowl & one on the stem of the sediment bowl in the gas tank. Check the screen in the elbow & the screen in the top of the sediment bowl. (don’t worry about the one in the tank) Both probably need to be cleaned. If you have the fuel knob turned on all the way, & 1 gallon or less in the tank, it may be trying to feed off of the reserve inlet which is probably clogged. Only open it 2 full turns. Put at least 2 gallons in the tank. (and do not forget to turn the gas off; see tip # 9)
There are ways to check for spark & fuel that work & ways that don't. For example, having gas to the carb is nice, but having it past the float is what counts! That’s why removing the 7/16” bolt in the bottom of the carb is the way to check for fuel. And, same thing w/ spark at the plugs. Some folks think that checking for spark means pulling a plug wire off & looking for one. Well, it's the distance the spark jumps at the plug that gives you the info you want. It takes about 17kv to jump a 3/16" gap & 22kv to jump ¼” in the open air. Remember, it’s 14psi outside of the engine & about 90psi at a 6:1 compression ratio in the cylinders & compressed air creates electrical resistance, so you really need the 17-22kv to fire the plugs when the engine is running. A store bought plug checker (in the picture) will work better than an old plug because it won’t shock the snot out of you like an old plug might!
Post back with results or more questions.
*If you don’t own a spark checker w/ an adjustable gap, buy one. In the meantime, an old spark plug w/ the gap opened to at least ¼” will work. Ground it to a rust & paint free spot on the engine turn the key on & look for a spark.
** On most gas engines, you would check for spark first. But, the N gas tank has a pin-hole size vent that easily clogs, causing vacuum lock. By the time you check for spark on a hot engine, the vacuum lock will dissipate w/ the engine off
75 Tips
I'd narrow the problem down to spark or fuel. You haven't done that. You've just assumed it's spark.
It is important for you to tell us if the distributor is on the front of the engine or on the side. The troubleshooting is different based upon the configuration of your engine.
It takes three things for an engine to run: spark at the right time, compression, & fuel/air in the right mixture. For the moment, forget about compression & concentrate on narrowing the problem down to spark or fuel.
There are three very important tools you always need to have in your N tool box: a 3 inch piece of wire w/ alligator clips on each end, a spark checker w/ an adjustable gap (* see below) and a 7/16 box end wrench. (see tip # 50 at the link below) And, you really do need a working ammeter on the tractor; it is a very important diagnostic tool. With these tools, you can quickly narrow down most N problems to spark or fuel.
Next time it stops, check quickly for fuel (** see below) then spark. When I say quickly, I mean get off the seat, grab the tools & do it right then. Do not wait a minute or two. First, check for fuel. Get a can & put it under the carb. Remove the bolt in the bottom of the carb; as long as the fuel is turned on, you should see gas flowing out of the carb. Let it run for at least 30 seconds. If it’s a dribble, or runs for 5 seconds & stops, or none at all, you have solved half the problem: it’s fuel related. If gas flows well out of the carb & only stops when you turn it off at the sediment bowl, chances are very good it’s not a fuel problem. So, next, turn the key on, crank the engine & look at the ammeter. What is the needle doing? Does it show a constant discharge, no movement at all, or does it move back & forth slightly? Next, hook up your spark checker, turn the key on & crank the engine. If the spark jumps the 1/4” gap, you probably don’t have a spark problem. If it won’t jump the ¼” gap, you have a spark problem. If the ammeter needle shows a constant discharge, or doesn’t move at all, that also tells you that you have a spark problem. Jump the ignition switch w/ your jumper wire & see what happens. If it runs, you found the problem. If it doesn’t have spark after you jump the ignition switch, post back for more info on further troubleshooting. (and do not forget to turn the ignition switch off; see tip # 38)
If it does not have gas coming out of the carb at a steady stream w/ the bolt out for at least 30 seconds, you have a fuel problem. First, remove the gas cap. Your vent could be clogged & it vacuum locked. If that doesn’t work, tap the carb bowl w/ a hammer handle in case the float is sticking closed. (don’t whack it w/ the head of the hammer; you can crack the bowl). If you still don’t see gas flowing, the N has three fuel screens; one in the brass elbow, one in the top of the sediment bowl & one on the stem of the sediment bowl in the gas tank. Check the screen in the elbow & the screen in the top of the sediment bowl. (don’t worry about the one in the tank) Both probably need to be cleaned. If you have the fuel knob turned on all the way, & 1 gallon or less in the tank, it may be trying to feed off of the reserve inlet which is probably clogged. Only open it 2 full turns. Put at least 2 gallons in the tank. (and do not forget to turn the gas off; see tip # 9)
There are ways to check for spark & fuel that work & ways that don't. For example, having gas to the carb is nice, but having it past the float is what counts! That’s why removing the 7/16” bolt in the bottom of the carb is the way to check for fuel. And, same thing w/ spark at the plugs. Some folks think that checking for spark means pulling a plug wire off & looking for one. Well, it's the distance the spark jumps at the plug that gives you the info you want. It takes about 17kv to jump a 3/16" gap & 22kv to jump ¼” in the open air. Remember, it’s 14psi outside of the engine & about 90psi at a 6:1 compression ratio in the cylinders & compressed air creates electrical resistance, so you really need the 17-22kv to fire the plugs when the engine is running. A store bought plug checker (in the picture) will work better than an old plug because it won’t shock the snot out of you like an old plug might!
Post back with results or more questions.
*If you don’t own a spark checker w/ an adjustable gap, buy one. In the meantime, an old spark plug w/ the gap opened to at least ¼” will work. Ground it to a rust & paint free spot on the engine turn the key on & look for a spark.
** On most gas engines, you would check for spark first. But, the N gas tank has a pin-hole size vent that easily clogs, causing vacuum lock. By the time you check for spark on a hot engine, the vacuum lock will dissipate w/ the engine off
75 Tips
Thanks Bruce, but it's definitely an electrical issue. It's a funk motor. The spark is good, as i went thru all the basic steps when she wouldn't start after replacing all that i mentioned plus the sediment bowl gasket. Once started, the ammeter showed continues charge, the higher the rpm the higher the charge. After a short amount of time, the battery was totally dead.
Just to add, my thought is somehow the charge isn't getting back into the battery. The wire going thru the ammeter is the only old wire left, perhaps even an original wire as it's cloth wrapped.
Just to add, my thought is somehow the charge isn't getting back into the battery. The wire going thru the ammeter is the only old wire left, perhaps even an original wire as it's cloth wrapped.
Bruce (VA)
Well-known Member
swpaguy.......didja know that yer tractor will run fer about 5-10 mins on just gas before VACUUM will stop it? Mud daubers are known to block the tank breather dome where you can't gitt too itt. Simple fix, crack yer gastank cap. Ford sells a breathing gas cap fer the NAA/600. ($15 cheap) ........the amazed Dell
Bruce (VA)
Well-known Member
I'm not understanding what you are telling me.
You said you are sure "it's definitely an electrical issue." Then, you said " The spark is good, " Now, you are saying "But no i didn't check for spark. "
So I'm confused.
As soon as it stops running, you need to see if the spark jumps 1/4" in the open air.
75 Tips
You said you are sure "it's definitely an electrical issue." Then, you said " The spark is good, " Now, you are saying "But no i didn't check for spark. "
So I'm confused.
As soon as it stops running, you need to see if the spark jumps 1/4" in the open air.
75 Tips
Bruce (VA)
Well-known Member
OK......got it.
The tractor stops running because the battery is dead. Meaning that it will not turn the engine over, right?
So, follow JMOR's advice re fully charging the battery then unhooking the generator.
And try a load test/specific gravity test on the battery.
FWIW......
You can usually run an a N for days w/o a fully charged battery & no generator.
So what's the difference between a Funk engine & a Ford engine?
The tractor stops running because the battery is dead. Meaning that it will not turn the engine over, right?
So, follow JMOR's advice re fully charging the battery then unhooking the generator.
And try a load test/specific gravity test on the battery.
FWIW......
You can usually run an a N for days w/o a fully charged battery & no generator.
So what's the difference between a Funk engine & a Ford engine?
Whew, glad we're on the same page now. You've given me lots of tips and advice over the past year and I always trust your judgement but i was getting confused on this one.
Just wondering what I'm looking for in disconnecting the generator. I did that before getting it done last year and the tractor would run for quite a while, not sure how long, before dying. I think the longest i ran it was about 1 1/2 hours
What would prevent the charge from the generator getting back to the battery? The vr or wiring or solenoid? What could possibly drain the battery while running? I should add the lights are disconnected.
Bruce (VA)
Well-known Member
" What could possibly drain the battery while running?"
The ignition system. Where do you think the current for the spark comes from?
" Just wondering what I'm looking for in disconnecting the generator."
You are isolating the charging system from the ignition system. With a good fully charged battery, the tractor should run for days; the ignition system only draws about 3-4 amps.
" What would prevent the charge from the generator getting back to the battery?"
You don't really know that's the case. If the battery has a dead cell, it will not hold a charge. But, it could be mis-wired. Or you've got an A circuit generator w/ a B circuit v/r. Or vice-versa. But it's surely not the solenoid; that's in the starting circuit.
So.....
Fully charge the battery & check it w/ a hydrometer. Or better yet, take it in for a load test.
Remove the generator wires & tape the ends.
Start the tractor.
Post back w/ results.
75 Tips
The ignition system. Where do you think the current for the spark comes from?
" Just wondering what I'm looking for in disconnecting the generator."
You are isolating the charging system from the ignition system. With a good fully charged battery, the tractor should run for days; the ignition system only draws about 3-4 amps.
" What would prevent the charge from the generator getting back to the battery?"
You don't really know that's the case. If the battery has a dead cell, it will not hold a charge. But, it could be mis-wired. Or you've got an A circuit generator w/ a B circuit v/r. Or vice-versa. But it's surely not the solenoid; that's in the starting circuit.
So.....
Fully charge the battery & check it w/ a hydrometer. Or better yet, take it in for a load test.
Remove the generator wires & tape the ends.
Start the tractor.
Post back w/ results.
75 Tips
Not much progress today, but i did find a bare wire. It was the wire going from the vr to the terminal block. Not sure how I missed it before. I just taped it for today and will replace it tomorrow. I believe 16g is the size-correct? I didn't run it long today, but I have to get the disc out of the field tomorrow so I'll see how it goes.
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