8N Front-Mount Distributor Timing

Guys, my old '49 8N quit on me again - I could not get a spark off a plug, so I suspected the points had closed up again (happened 10 years ago).

I have replaced the points & condenser, and (tried to) set basic timing on the distributor, according to the shop manual.

If the distributor will go back on only "one way", will I need to rotate the shaft to align it properly? (will that change the timing?)

Also, I am unclear as to how to change or lock in the timing setting - the adjustment screw on the side of the distributor was MISSING. So I replaced it with a screw I had.

How does the timing plate move? (up or down)

Going to put it back in, in a little while, and check for TDC on #1 cylinder, and see if it fires and runs.
 
"will I need to rotate the shaft to align it properly?" YES

"will that change the timing?" NO"

"How does the timing plate move? (up or down)" It rotates. Clockwise will advance the timing.

"Going to put it back in, in a little while, and check for TDC on #1" Not necessary. Put it back in and fire it up.
 

OK, Mr Cooke - I put it back on, but still no fire (grounded a plug to make sure)

I forgot to mention, I also put a new 12v coil on it.

So at this point, what's next? (I know the manual has other tests, like starter relay)
 

12 volt conversion kits often come with a ceramic resistor to use in addition to the OEM resistor in the wire to the coil. if yours has one, i'd suggest u try jumpering around it and see if that fixes the problem. now that u have a 12 volt coil, that extra resistor likely shouldn't be needed anyway. often they are too much resistance to begin with.
 
(quoted from post at 13:04:46 10/31/17)
12 volt conversion kits often come with a ceramic resistor to use in addition to the OEM resistor in the wire to the coil. if yours has one, i'd suggest u try jumpering around it and see if that fixes the problem. now that u have a 12 volt coil, that extra resistor likely shouldn't be needed anyway. often they are too much resistance to begin with.

OK, where is it?
 
Starter relay? That has nothing to do with no spark.

The first thing you need to check is for battery voltage at the coil. Yes, you need a meter for that, not a light. With the key on, you should see battery voltage battery with the points open and about half that with the points closed. If you do not see either, the problem is between the battery and the coil, e.g., the resistor, ignition switch or a bad connection.

Assuming that the bushings & advance weights are ok (*see below), & that you have correct voltage to the coil , the most common reasons for no spark or a weak spark on the front distributor are below. Check each one carefully. Even if you find a problem, check all 10:

1. The insulator under the brass concave head screw & where the copper strip attaches. (it's fiber & will wear out; poke & prod w/ your meter leads to make sure it still works) If you need to replace the insulator, use a
.250 x 3/8 nylon square nylon anchor nut available at most big box home stores.

2. The pigtail at the bottom of the coil not making contact w/ the concave head brass screw inside the distributor. (With the coil on, the pigtail must firmly contact the brass screw. No contact = no spark) Check for continuity between the top of the coil and the pig tail; a 6 volt coil will be around 1 ohm & a 12 volt coil should be 2 to 3 ohms.

3. The copper strip is broken or grounded to the plate. (look very carefully for cracks & breaks) .

4. The distributor is not grounded to the block because of paint or grease acting as an insulator. Or the points plate is covered in oil.

5. The tab on the bottom of the coil not making contact w/ the brass button on the cap. (With the cap on, the tab must firmly contact the brass button. No contact = no spark.) Check for continuity between the top of the coil and the tab; you should see about 6k ohms.

6. A grounding issue inside the distributor: Incorrect positioning of the spring clip on the plate causing the pigtail to ground. (the open part of the clip goes between 7 & 9 o'clock on the plate. That puts the straight part of the clip opposite of the timing screw at 3 o'clock) or the condenser wire is grounding to the plate or side of the distributor.

7. Incorrect seating of the coil on the distributor due to a loose bail or no gasket.(the coil must not move at all; if it does, replace the gasket or bail. Or stick some cardboard under the bail).

8. Water/moisture inside the cap due to gasket failure or the absence of a gasket. (the cap AND coil have gaskets)

9. Dirty/corroded/burned/incorrectly gapped or misaligned points. I use only Wells, Blue Streak or Echlin brand points (* *see below). If you are using quality points and cannot get the gap to open to .015, chances are you need to replace the bushings. If the shaft has any sideways movement AT ALL, the bushings must be replaced. (*** see below) If the tractor has been sitting unused for a few months, it?s highly likely that the points are glazed. Dress them with brown paper or card stock. Do NOT use a file or sandpaper. That removes the thin metallic coating on the surface and reduces point life considerably. With the points closed, you should have continuity between them; high resistance means they are glazed.

10. Burned rotor, cracked/carbon tracked cap. Brass ?dust? in the cap is a sure sign of bushing wear.

After find the problem & re-check the point gap, do a continuity check before you put the distributor back on the tractor. Before you start, make sure your meter/light works.

With the distributor still off the tractor, follow these steps:

1. Coil off, cap off, points open. One probe on the brass screw & the other on both sides of the open points. On the side closest to the cam, you should have continuity. Not on the other side! If you do, you will also have continuity everywhere because the points are grounded.

2. Coil off, cap off, points open. One probe on the brass screw & the other anywhere on the body of the distributor. You should have no continuity! Now, rotate the tang on the distributor....as the points open & close, you have continuity (closed) and lose it when they open.

3. Put the coil on the distributor, cap off, points open. One probe on the lead on the top of the coil, the other on the cam side of the open points. You should have continuity!

4. Coil on, cap off, points open. One probe on the lead on the top of the coil, the other anywhere on the body of the distributor. You should have no continuity!

At this point, I just put the distributor, coil & cap all back on the tractor as a unit. The reason I do this is because it is real easy to get the cap or coil misaligned trying to put it back together, one piece at a time. The result is something gets broken or you get a 'no spark' problem.

It's possible to put it back on wrong & break it. Look at the slot on the end of the cam shaft. Whatever angle it happens to be, turn the distributor tang to match it. Make sure you can tell the wide side from the narrow side on both the cam & distributor! (close counts). Place the distributor on the front of the engine, gently push it in place & slowly turn the distributor body until you feel the tang slip into the slot. Rotate the distributor body until the bolt holes line up. Hand tighten the two bolts until the distributor body is flush with the timing gear cover.

* Unscrew the plate hold down screw & remove the C clip to get the plate out. Remove the shaft & weights. The weights should freely move. The tracks should not be wallowed out.

** NAPA part numbers:

. Points: FD-6769X or ECH CS35

. Condenser: FD-71 or ECH FA200

. Rotor: FD-104 or ECH FA 300

. Cap: FD-126 or ECH FA 350

** Yesterday's Tractor kit:

Premium Blue Streak points (A0NN12107ABS), rotor, condenser, and gauge Part
No: APN12000ABSR

** nnalert's kit:

Heavy-Duty Point Set, Condenser, Heavy-Duty Rotor, Heat Range Matched Spark Plugs. Packed 6 to Master Carton. Contains: 1-9N12107 Point Set, 1-AONN12300A Condenser, 1-9N12200 Rotor,1-9N12104 Gasket Kit,4-AL437 Spark
Plug,1-015 Gauge, 1-025 Gauge.

** Distributor cam lube, Mac's Auto Parts:

http://www.macsautoparts.com/.../distributor-cam-lube...
one-7-8-ounce-381629.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=paid_search&utm_campa
ign=paid_search_google_pla&scid=scplp58-20966-1&sc_intid=58-20966-1&gclid=CN
7P-sjQ9tICFYePswodaH0HRg

** Distributor cam lube NAPA:

https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/ECHML1

*** There are three ways to replace the bushings in a front distributor:

1. Buy new bushings (part numbers 9N12120 front & 18-12132 rear). Press out the old ones, press in the new ones and ream to fit. CAUTION: do not try this unless you have a press & know how to use it. If you break the base, a new one costs $130. If you bend the tower which holds the front bushing, a new plate will cost you $30. Resist the temptation to buy a new plate; most are pot metal and the threads will wallow out about the third time you change the points.

2. Take the new bushings and distributor to your local machine shop.

3. Send the distributor out for bushing replacement if you do not have a local machine shop
75 Tips
 
No telling. Folks put them just about anywhere. So start at the coil and work your way back to the oem ballast resistor on the terminal block. If it's connected correctly, it will be somewhere in the ignition circuit.
75 Tips
 
Timing isn't going to cause a no spark situation; see my other response re the spark problem.

But when you get back to setting the timing, following up on what Harold told you...........

Get a meter or test light, a 21/64? drill bit & a metal straight edge. Put the distributor face down w/ the condenser on the left & the timing plate lock screw on the bottom. Look at the end of the shaft: it has a narrow side & a wide side. Make sure you can tell the difference. Now, place the drill bit in the bottom mounting hole (this will be your reference point for measuring). Next, place a straight edge on the wide side of the tang on the shaft as shown in fig. FO83 in the picture. Rotate the shaft CCW (as viewed from rotor side OR CW as viewed from back/tang side) until the straight edge is ?" beyond the outside edge of the drill bit you stuck in the distributor mounting hole. At this distance, the distributor points should start to open (get your meter/light out now & check). If not, loosen the timing plate lock screw and turn to advance or retard the timing (move the plate down to advance timing, up to retard). Remember, each one of those little hash marks represents about 4? of timing. Keep adjusting until you get the proper ?" setting. (if the plate won?t move, you might need to remove the big C clip to loosen it a bit) As you?re adjusting, eliminate backlash by turning the shaft backwards (CW as viewed from the front) and bring the shaft forward (CCW as viewed from the front) to measure your setting. This ?" setting will get you static timing at top dead center.

And to reiterate.....timing isn't causing your no spark problem.
75 Tips
 
(quoted from post at 17:23:15 10/31/17)
(quoted from post at 13:04:46 10/31/17)
12 volt conversion kits often come with a ceramic resistor to use in addition to the OEM resistor in the wire to the coil. if yours has one, i'd suggest u try jumpering around it and see if that fixes the problem. now that u have a 12 volt coil, that extra resistor likely shouldn't be needed anyway. often they are too much resistance to begin with.

OK, where is it?

as bruce said, there's no telling where physically someone chose to put it. the bottom line is, it's either electrically between the coil and the OEM resistor, or it doesn't count.

you're looking for something that usually looks like this:

TT_RU11T_Fro.jpg


that pic is about 2.5 or 3 times life size. they are often white.
 
As a test, run a wire from the non grounded side of the battery to the top of the coil. If it runs the problem is in the wiring up to the coil. If it still doesn't have spark the problem is in the distributor.
 
Run a wire from the non grounded side of the battery to the top of the coil. If it runs, your problem is between the battery and the coil. If it still doesn't run, your problem is in the distributor.
 

Awesome! - thanks guys for all the info. I will try it.

I don't have a meter but I can get one.

One immediate concern, I have NO gaskets installed. I also install the dist, cap, and coil ONE AT A TIME. The coil seems 'wobbly' even with the clip - is that 'normal'? Also, the aftermarket cap does not fit snugly (1/8" gap at bottom) - should I replace?

Finally, I have tested only one plug for fire (#4). I will test the other 3.

I will try the jumper from battery to coil lead and see what happens.

Keep in mind, my tractor is sitting OUTSIDE (and it's now raining, all week). So I can do bench-testing, but that's about it, til better weather.
(not to mention, I'm only 2 years newer than my tractor? :lol:
 

One last confession - I may have 'introduced' the no-spark problem (by gooning with the distributor).

It's possible that I had a FUEL problem, and not a FIRE problem at all?

Here's why:

My tractor started missing badly, AFTER I foolishly put some old gas in it. But if I choked it, it would smooth out and run. Thinking I could just burn out the mixture of old and new(er) gas, I kept running it with the choke pulled, til the last time when I shut it off, it would not restart.

So I drained the tank and refilled with fresh gas, then removed, disassembled, and sprayed the carb with cleaner, then blew out with compressed air. The floats appeared to be good?

That's when I started chasing my tail, and started through the distributor.

I believe it was clearly a 'fuel-starvation' problem?

Btw, the carb is aftermarket (from TSC) and only about 5 years old.

If I can resolve the no-spark issue and it still does not run, I will rebuild the carb.
 

Keep at it, once you sort out all the parts like Bruce says it will run. Going through the same things with my 9N, it ran when parked, now almost 2 yrs. later I have a no spark situation. I'm getting voltage to the coil (even the near dead 6V battery is showing 6V at the coil) I'm jumping it with 12 V and ran a bypass to the coil to be sure there was no wiring issue, so my issue is in the distributor like the last time it did this. Then there was a grounded piece that was tough to find but got it sorted out. Like you mine is partially outside (rolled it out to get to it) but it's raining here too and have too many other things to do first before getting back to it.
 

You're right, W_B - and I don't give up, easily.

I had time, between rain, this afternoon to do some quick tests:

1) I checked for a spark at ALL 4 plugs (nada)
2) I jumpered from the hot side of the battery to the coil (no luck)
3) I jumpered AROUND the resistor block on back of the firewall (same result)

Next I guess I will remove the distributor again (3rd time this week) and start trying to test it?

Btw, how do I post an image on here?[/code]
 
(quoted from post at 17:40:00 11/01/17)
I just went through the same thing after a tune up. The problem was with the insulator under the concave-head screw where the coil pigtail makes contact. Follow Hobo's sage advise here: http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?t=942649

Thanks, LTU - I'll keep that in mind (btw, the Home Depot web site is down for 'routine maintenance')

Anybody have any feedback on that aftermarket distributor sold here?

How about the carb issue I mentioned? (only ran smoothly when choked)
 

OK, Round 3 - here's what I did today:

1) Replaced spark plugs

2) Replaced distributor cap (new cap does not seat snugly onto the distributor, just like the original)

3) Performed the simple Ignition Troubleshooting tests in the factory shop manual, as follows:

"No Spark at Any Plug Wires"

... If a spark fails to jump the gap, disconnect the primary wire from the top of the coil. Turn the ignition switch on and observe if a spark occurs when the coil lead is grounded. If a spark occurs, the distributor and coil assembly are at fault."

Result: No spark occurred when grounding the coil wire

"If no spark occurred when if coil lead was grounded, the trouble is located between the starter relay and the primary lead on the coil. To locate the trouble ... the three (3) terminals on the terminal block should be grounded in the following order:
lower center, upper right, and upper left."

(Note: my terminal block has only 2 leads - one to ignition switch and one to coil)

"If no spark occurs when the lower center terminal is grounded, the trouble is in the connection between the terminal and the starting motor relay." (Note: my resistor block does not have this terminal)

"If no spark occurs when the upper right terminal is grounded, the ignition switch or its leads are faulty."

"If no spark occurs when the upper left terminal is grounded, the resistance unit is faulty. If a spark occurs, the connection is faulty between the terminal and the primary connection on the coil."

I got NO SPARK when I grounded either of the two leads on the resistor block - I did get a spark at each lead when grounded to the resistor block.

Why does my resistor block have only 2 leads (one to coil and one to ignition switch)?

Is the resistor block BAD? - or, maybe the ignition switch?

Where is the starter relay?

(I am keeping Tractor Supply in business - that aftermarket distributor on here is looking better, all the time! :wink: )
 
I do not know what "factory shop manual" you are reading, but it sure does not sound like it matches your tractor's distributor.
 
(quoted from post at 12:29:22 11/02/17) I do not know what "factory shop manual" you are reading, but it sure does not sound like it matches your tractor's distributor.

It came with my tractor from the PO, 12 or 13 years ago
- I see now, the title page says, "OPERATOR'S MANUAL, 1948 Ford Tractor"

That may explain it? (my tractor is a '49)

So, to the point, the resistor on my tractor has 2 terminals (just like the one in the photo posted on this thread)

So, in light of the tests I did, could it be bad?
- if so, where can I get another one?
 
(quoted from post at 18:34:25 11/02/17)
(quoted from post at 12:29:22 11/02/17) I do not know what "factory shop manual" you are reading, but it sure does not sound like it matches your tractor's distributor.

It came with my tractor from the PO, 12 or 13 years ago
- I see now, the title page says, "OPERATOR'S MANUAL, 1948 Ford Tractor"

That may explain it? (my tractor is a '49)

So, to the point, the resistor on my tractor has 2 terminals (just like the one in the photo posted on this thread)

So, in light of the tests I did, could it be bad?
- if so, where can I get another one?
umper (short) across the resistor & then try to start. If it does, don't run it long or it will eventually over heat the coil, but is a test .
 
(quoted from post at 19:39:27 11/02/17)

Jumper (short) across the resistor & then try to start. If it does, don't run it long or it will eventually over heat the coil, but is a test .

he said he put in a 12 volt coil.
 

OK, to revisit the loose dist cap and wobbly coil issues, I ran back out and removed the distributor. Here you can see what I'm talking about.

The cap is the TSC aftermarket (same as previous one I had when it was running), and NEITHER of them fits snugly.

Likewise, the new coil is 'wobbly' (same as the previous one I had on it).

No amount of gasket will make a seal.


mvphoto5567.jpg


mvphoto5568.jpg
 
(quoted from post at 19:41:12 11/02/17)
JMOR, I disconnected both terminal leads and jumpered them together (is that right?) - still no fire or run.
K, so that ought to rule out the resistor as a problem.
 
(quoted from post at 16:58:28 11/02/17)
(quoted from post at 19:41:12 11/02/17)
JMOR, I disconnected both terminal leads and jumpered them together (is that right?) - still no fire or run.
K, so that ought to rule out the resistor as a problem.

I also jumpered from the battery to the coil - same result.

What's your take on the misfit cap and 'wobbly' coil? - is it possible the I have the incorrect base?
 
" What's your take on the misfit cap and 'wobbly' coil? - is it possible the I have the incorrect base? "

No.

Do you have battery voltage to the coil? Yes or no? Battery voltage, points open, about 9v closed.

If you have battery voltage, the problem is in the distributor.

Go back to the list of 10 likely failure points I posted, along with the continuity checks. Start at the top and go through each one.
75 Tips
 
(quoted from post at 04:59:53 11/03/17) " What's your take on the misfit cap and 'wobbly' coil? - is it possible the I have the incorrect base? "

No.

Do you have battery voltage to the coil? Yes or no? Battery voltage, points open, about 9v closed.

If you have battery voltage, the problem is in the distributor.

Go back to the list of 10 likely failure points I posted, along with the continuity checks. Start at the top and go through each one.
75 Tips

Not sure, Bruce? I will have to go buy a meter (and it's thunderstorming here this morning)
 

Sitting here and looking at my distributor last night, I noticed that the points had CLOSED UP again (not sure how that happened?). So I reset set them, and ran back out this afternoon, in between rain, and threw the dist back on - no luck.

Then I yanked the carb off (remember the 'fuel starvation' theory?), removed the bowl plug, and NO GAS came out.

I have bought a rebuild kit, and will rebuild it, next week.
 
(quoted from post at 20:08:15 11/03/17)
Sitting here and looking at my distributor last night, I noticed that the points had CLOSED UP again (not sure how that happened?). So I reset set them, and ran back out this afternoon, in between rain, and threw the dist back on - no luck.

Then I yanked the carb off (remember the 'fuel starvation' theory?), removed the bowl plug, and NO GAS came out.

I have bought a rebuild kit, and will rebuild it, next week.

Did you check for fuel before or after you removed the carb?
 
(quoted from post at 22:37:01 11/03/17)
(quoted from post at 20:08:15 11/03/17)
Sitting here and looking at my distributor last night, I noticed that the points had CLOSED UP again (not sure how that happened?). So I reset set them, and ran back out this afternoon, in between rain, and threw the dist back on - no luck.

Then I yanked the carb off (remember the 'fuel starvation' theory?), removed the bowl plug, and NO GAS came out.

I have bought a rebuild kit, and will rebuild it, next week.

Did you check for fuel before or after you removed the carb?
.....and , where is the "timing" problem??????????
 

R Geiger - BOTH

I removed the bowl screw while ON the tractor - no gas came out. Then again, after I pulled the carb - shook it and it was EMPTY.

I also removed the gas inlet tube, and only a few drops.

As I have done everything I know to do on the 'timing' (distributor) problem (without a test meter), I will eliminate fuel first issue and then revisit electrical.

But that will be next week.
 
Alright - it was Fuel, not Fire

Put on a new carb yesterday, and she fired right up.

Thanks for all the help and hand-holding.
 
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