8N Front Mount Electronic Ignition

Shim

New User
I have installed the pertronix Electronic ignition and cannot get my 8N to start.

Its a 12 volt conversion. I have power to the coil but no spark at the plug. I have replaced distributor cap, coil, alternator (last year), starter switch (last year), cracked ballast resistor few years ago. I am very frustrated and ready to put points back in so I can mow my lawn. Wire from the EI is going to the switch side of the resistor as indicated on instructions. Don't know what I am doing wrong. Help!
 
(quoted from post at 11:03:28 07/10/15) I have installed the pertronix Electronic ignition and cannot get my 8N to start.

Its a 12 volt conversion. I have power to the coil but no spark at the plug. I have replaced distributor cap, coil, alternator (last year), starter switch (last year), cracked ballast resistor few years ago. I am very frustrated and ready to put points back in so I can mow my lawn. Wire from the EI is going to the switch side of the resistor as indicated on instructions. Don't know what I am doing wrong. Help!
hat is Pertronix unit number? Can you show a diagram of the wiring or detailed description of how it is wired?
 
Shim........awe yes, 'nutter $130 replacement fer $20 set of points that will last 10-yrs before needing replacement. Did yer N-engine start BEFORE you replaced the Pertronix??? You do know transistors ...ie... Pertronix are POLARITY sensitive, don't you? Cracked ballast resistor, eh? You do know the 8N ignition system comes in 2-configurations, don't you? Only the weird 4-nipple front mount uses the MANDATORY "ballast resistor". The 5-nipple side mount uses conventional 5-nipple capple and round can coil. So it is IMPORTANT you tell us which type of dizzy you have. You do know ittza 15-min job to replace the $20 points on the kitchen table, don't you? Just un-snapple yer capple and walk to the kitchen. Installation is a reversal of the removal ...except... finger start the 2-bolts and install yer rotor. Now twist yer rotor so the OFF-SET tang fits the OFF-SET camshaft slot. Now tighten yer 2-bolts and re-snapple yer capple. Remember to "polish" the INVISIBLE corrosion from between the points. Me? I clamp the corner of $1-bill between the points and pull. Simple, eh? ........HTH, Dell, yer self-appointed sparkie-meister
 
(quoted from post at 22:44:38 07/10/15) Shim........awe yes, 'nutter $130 replacement fer $20 set of points that will last 10-yrs before needing replacement. Did yer N-engine start BEFORE you replaced the Pertronix??? You do know transistors ...ie... Pertronix are POLARITY sensitive, don't you? Cracked ballast resistor, eh? You do know the 8N ignition system comes in 2-configurations, don't you? Only the weird 4-nipple front mount uses the MANDATORY "ballast resistor". The 5-nipple side mount uses conventional 5-nipple capple and round can coil. So it is IMPORTANT you tell us which type of dizzy you have. You do know ittza 15-min job to replace the $20 points on the kitchen table, don't you? Just un-snapple yer capple and walk to the kitchen. Installation is a reversal of the removal ...except... finger start the 2-bolts and install yer rotor. Now twist yer rotor so the OFF-SET tang fits the OFF-SET camshaft slot. Now tighten yer 2-bolts and re-snapple yer capple. Remember to "polish" the INVISIBLE corrosion from between the points. Me? I clamp the corner of $1-bill between the points and pull. Simple, eh? ........HTH, Dell, yer self-appointed sparkie-meister

I think he ask for help on his EI... Why folks that no nuttin about it post and tell him he's a idiot ...I wonder who is the idiot...

He has the best I know of ask a question.... Then those that know nuttin about the issue have to run the poster in the ground... Are Y'all skeered of sum'N...
 
(quoted from post at 21:35:32 07/10/15)
(quoted from post at 22:44:38 07/10/15) Shim........awe yes, 'nutter $130 replacement fer $20 set of points that will last 10-yrs before needing replacement. Did yer N-engine start BEFORE you replaced the Pertronix??? You do know transistors ...ie... Pertronix are POLARITY sensitive, don't you? Cracked ballast resistor, eh? You do know the 8N ignition system comes in 2-configurations, don't you? Only the weird 4-nipple front mount uses the MANDATORY "ballast resistor". The 5-nipple side mount uses conventional 5-nipple capple and round can coil. So it is IMPORTANT you tell us which type of dizzy you have. You do know ittza 15-min job to replace the $20 points on the kitchen table, don't you? Just un-snapple yer capple and walk to the kitchen. Installation is a reversal of the removal ...except... finger start the 2-bolts and install yer rotor. Now twist yer rotor so the OFF-SET tang fits the OFF-SET camshaft slot. Now tighten yer 2-bolts and re-snapple yer capple. Remember to "polish" the INVISIBLE corrosion from between the points. Me? I clamp the corner of $1-bill between the points and pull. Simple, eh? ........HTH, Dell, yer self-appointed sparkie-meister

I think he ask for help on his EI... Why folks that no nuttin about it post and tell him he's a idiot ...I wonder who is the idiot...

He has the best I know of ask a question.... Then those that know nuttin about the issue have to run the poster in the ground... Are Y'all skeered of sum'N...
ou got that right! Those who might have been of help never got a chance to, due to all the flack!
 
Hobo.........I've done told you before, I got 'nuttin' against transistor ignitions. In fact I hand built one fer my 1956 Dodge D-500 V-8 in 1963. (cousin to the MIGHTY Chrysler 300) Kenn you say you hand built a transistor ignition??? I also gotta Mk-10 CD ignition fer my 7000-rpm 164-hp dyno'd BMW 2002 with dual DCOE Webers. I was just pointing out the absurdity of $130 Pertronix fer $20 set of points in an 2000-rpm tractor engine. .......respectfully, Dell
 
The winners are those who use it and never
have to touch their points again.
The losers are those who bad mouth it but
have never tried it - and wont.
 
looks like points to me...a little different style...but I see them :D
just a joke, but really...see...not magic, just a switch...but the gap never changes, no rubbing block to wear, no points contact pads to wear, no bounce.
So, how is this a bad thing?

Shim,
JMOR and Hobo are here, answer their questions and they will figure it out.
Don't go by my pic, this one is 12v ng running an external round coil.
pertronixfrontmount.jpg
 
I appreciate the discussion and I did read the debate before deciding to go with an Electronic ignition. And, I am
an idiot when it comes to being the accidental mechanic. However my adventures working on my 8N, helped by this and
other forums have been mostly successful. I would like some advice on the problem at hand. It seems as Mr. Sparkie
would suggest going back to original equipment while there are others that maybe could help but have only renewed the
debate.

I have a tractor that has not mowed this season and though a push mower is giving me good exercise, I am anxious to
get my 60" finishing mower running.

I bought a new set of points yesterday but I am willing to return them if there is a way to get the EI to work. As
posted, the problem is in the distributor. I have power to the coil an not to the spark plugs. It is a 12 volt
positive ground, front distributor 4 nipple. Your considerable collective knowledge is very much appreciated. Help
me get mowing.
 
(quoted from post at 10:18:52 07/11/15) I appreciate the discussion and I did read the debate before deciding to go with an Electronic ignition. And, I am
an idiot when it comes to being the accidental mechanic. However my adventures working on my 8N, helped by this and
other forums have been mostly successful. I would like some advice on the problem at hand. It seems as Mr. Sparkie
would suggest going back to original equipment while there are others that maybe could help but have only renewed the
debate.

I have a tractor that has not mowed this season and though a push mower is giving me good exercise, I am anxious to
get my 60" finishing mower running.

I bought a new set of points yesterday but I am willing to return them if there is a way to get the EI to work. As
posted, the problem is in the distributor. I have power to the coil an not to the spark plugs. It is a 12 volt
positive ground, front distributor 4 nipple. Your considerable collective knowledge is very much appreciated. Help
me get mowing.
ou say, 12v positive ground ( a bit unusual, but has been done). If that is in fact the case then you need a 12v positive ground Pertronix unit # 1247P12 or 1247XTP12. What do you have? What color are the wires on the module?
 
(quoted from post at 09:44:38 07/10/15) Shim........awe yes, 'nutter $130 replacement fer $20 set of points that will last 10-yrs before needing replacement. Did yer N-engine start BEFORE you replaced the Pertronix??? You do know transistors ...ie... Pertronix are POLARITY sensitive, don't you? Cracked ballast resistor, eh? You do know the 8N ignition system comes in 2-configurations, don't you? Only the weird 4-nipple front mount uses the MANDATORY "ballast resistor". The 5-nipple side mount uses conventional 5-nipple capple and round can coil. So it is IMPORTANT you tell us which type of dizzy you have. You do know ittza 15-min job to replace the $20 points on the kitchen table, don't you? Just un-snapple yer capple and walk to the kitchen. Installation is a reversal of the removal ...except... finger start the 2-bolts and install yer rotor. Now twist yer rotor so the OFF-SET tang fits the OFF-SET camshaft slot. Now tighten yer 2-bolts and re-snapple yer capple. Remember to "polish" the INVISIBLE corrosion from between the points. Me? I clamp the corner of $1-bill between the points and pull. Simple, eh? ........HTH, Dell, yer self-appointed sparkie-meister

Gee I don't know. I'm good with 130 bucks not to have to mess with that front mount each year. But unlike some users here I run my N's about 150 hours a year of more doing actual farm work. I always check the gap on everything using points I own at least once a year. To not have to pull that distributor is fantastic. It ain't fun pulling that darn thing when you are not allowed to kneel and you have size XX hands. That front dizzy was not one of Fords better ideas.

I think JMOR nailed it. Positive ground. Bet you got a N ground system.

Rick
 
Its a Pertronix 1247 ignitor for a ford 4 cylinder. Should be the right one. I dont have the dist off the tractor at
the moment.
 
Wait what? negative ground is unusual? Is it possible I installed the battery incorrectly? Is there a way to test if
it should be positive ground? I can be that big of an idiot. Its been working but not running right at higher rev
(for the higher grass) for a while.
 
" Is it possible I installed the battery incorrectly?"

Yep.

As others have noted, EI has a number of benefits. It also has a few liabilities. One liability is that it is polarity sensitive. If you hook it up backwards, you let the smoke out.

Your unit is made positive or negative ground. One or the other. If, as it appears, your unit is positive ground & you hooked it up negative ground, you get to buy another unit. Or put the points back in it.
75 Tips
 
(quoted from post at 19:53:56 07/11/15) Wait what? negative ground is unusual? Is it possible I installed the battery incorrectly? Is there a way to test if
it should be positive ground? I can be that big of an idiot. Its been working but not running right at higher rev
(for the higher grass) for a while.

No, most 12 conversions are negative ground. You said it was positive ground. But some people do use positive ground and that's why the subject of polarity of the EI unit came up.

So check!

Rick
 
(quoted from post at 12:06:42 07/12/15) I misspoke it is a Neg ground not positive. Again,
should be the rite one.

Then my best guess is that you don't have it wired right. I did mine a couple of years ago and had no problems. I just followed the directions. It's a 12 Neg ground conversion too.

Go back and carefully check your installation against the directions. I switched over to a 12 volt coil when I did mine too.

Rick
 
(quoted from post at 23:31:59 07/12/15)
(quoted from post at 12:06:42 07/12/15) I misspoke it is a Neg ground not positive. Again,
should be the rite one.

Then my best guess is that you don't have it wired right. I did mine a couple of years ago and had no problems. I just followed the directions. It's a 12 Neg ground conversion too.

Go back and carefully check your installation against the directions. I switched over to a 12 volt coil when I did mine too.

Rick
.and if not a wiring error, you can verify the module:
 
Thanks Rick, this is the first practical advise. Im not a mechanic and though I am of average intelligence I have been frustrated and a bit overwhelmed. I have procrastinated diagnosing the problem and getting this fixed for a number of weeks.

When its running, I love my 8N tractor, it has served me well for 12 years. Until now I have been successful at diagnosing and repairing minor repairs.

Thanks for your and everyone else's help.
 
Do the module check and confirm the unit is working. I have put in about 20 of these and had only 1 defective module. Unfortunatly it was on the first one I put in, so I wasted a lot of time and energy trying to figure out what I did wrong. I called pertronix and they had me check a couple of things and sent me the procedure for checking the module. We confirmed it was bad and they sent me a new unit.
 
I got one of these fancy Pertronix ignitions for my positive ground 6 volt front mount 8N as well.. because I don't use my tractor much and I didn't like having to troubleshoot then polish up my points every season when I wanted to start up.

Installed all new wire harness at the same time, too. Started it up and it ran...for 15 seconds then died. :?
That was 4 years ago, and other projects and priorities have left it neglected.

Finally getting back to it. Just got done troubleshooting and checking out distributor and ignition circuit (which brings up a couple questions I hope can get help with, as well as my observations).

Yesterday reinstalled distributor and corrected a fault (described below) in my wiring. Though I didn't get engine to start, the ignition part seems to be working. Timing appears correct. A spark (evidenced by a timing light) is running down each wire.

Fault: I did not have proper resistance coming to the coil from the positive ground. Pertronix specifies a minimum of 1.5 ohms on the primary side (though it was not mentioned in the 1247P6 instructions I received with the electronic ignition, I learned this in discussion with their tech support-who are quite helpful). In testing my coil, I had 1.1 ohms on the primary, and 18,900 ohms* on secondary.

To bring this to >1.5 ohms, I sought out a .5 or so balance resistor. Found one on the tractor (the Resistor Assembly P/N 12250) which I had on the 'wrong' side of the ignition circuit... With the standard ignition, the ignition switch goes to the assembly, which then goes to the terminal at the top of the coil. (See diag. FO71) http://img17.photobucket.com/albums/v51/drwhite/8N_wireing_1947-mid_1950.jpg
(I had a new one installed here with my new wiring that was .4 ohm. The original (in my parts box) is 1 ohm.) SO, that .4 ohm resistor is now in circuit between positive ground and the positive ground terminal of the coil (the exposed one at the top). The black wire that comes out of the distributor body from the Pertronix ignition now goes to direct to the ignition switch.

[b:f7252d17ea]*Question: What should the values be on a good 6v front mount coil?[/b:f7252d17ea] I am not sure this is a good coil. I was getting spark down the wires when cranking, but was not getting fire. Is there -enough- spark? (more testing later today).

Cleaned carb and reinstalled just before trying, and new gas, etc. Didn't check to see if plugs were getting wet/fuel actually making it all the way to the cylinders as dinner time arrived, but again, more testing to do today. Plugs were inspected/cleaned beforehand.

Main point here is to be sure you have a minimum of 1.5 ohms on the primary side of coil. I got that wrong on initial wiring and is possible it caused coil to fail when originally started it and it ran for the 15 or so seconds back when...
But a spark is still coming down wires per timing light...

Thoughts/Ideas?

Separate issue - once pushed started button, starter would not stop (had to disconnect battery). Disconnected starter button and still ran so figure the starter solenoid/relay has failed/stuck in the on (closed) position. Any good way to bench test this? When trying with just a light in the circuit, couldn't get it to close. Don't know if needs more amps pulling on it to work?
 
You did not hurt your coil by running it at higher than normal current for 15 seconds. Solenoids most often stick because of a low battery. Sharp blow with wrench or small hammer will often un-stick them.
 
(quoted from post at 23:46:40 07/23/15) I got one of these fancy Pertronix ignitions for my positive ground 6 volt front mount 8N as well.. because I don't use my tractor much and I didn't like having to troubleshoot then polish up my points every season when I wanted to start up.

Installed all new wire harness at the same time, too. Started it up and it ran...for 15 seconds then died. :?
That was 4 years ago, and other projects and priorities have left it neglected.

Finally getting back to it. Just got done troubleshooting and checking out distributor and ignition circuit (which brings up a couple questions I hope can get help with, as well as my observations).

Yesterday reinstalled distributor and corrected a fault (described below) in my wiring. Though I didn't get engine to start, the ignition part seems to be working. Timing appears correct. A spark (evidenced by a timing light) is running down each wire.

Fault: I did not have proper resistance coming to the coil from the positive ground. Pertronix specifies a minimum of 1.5 ohms on the primary side (though it was not mentioned in the 1247P6 instructions I received with the electronic ignition, I learned this in discussion with their tech support-who are quite helpful). In testing my coil, I had 1.1 ohms on the primary, and 18,900 ohms* on secondary.

To bring this to >1.5 ohms, I sought out a .5 or so balance resistor. Found one on the tractor (the Resistor Assembly P/N 12250) which I had on the 'wrong' side of the ignition circuit... With the standard ignition, the ignition switch goes to the assembly, which then goes to the terminal at the top of the coil. (See diag. FO71) http://img17.photobucket.com/albums/v51/drwhite/8N_wireing_1947-mid_1950.jpg
(I had a new one installed here with my new wiring that was .4 ohm. The original (in my parts box) is 1 ohm.) SO, that .4 ohm resistor is now in circuit between positive ground and the positive ground terminal of the coil (the exposed one at the top). The black wire that comes out of the distributor body from the Pertronix ignition now goes to direct to the ignition switch.

[b:909422b9dd]*Question: What should the values be on a good 6v front mount coil?[/b:909422b9dd] I am not sure this is a good coil. I was getting spark down the wires when cranking, but was not getting fire. Is their -enough- spark? (more testing later today).

Cleaned carb and reinstalled just before trying, and new gas, etc. Didn't check to see if plugs were getting wet/fuel actually making it all the way to the cylinders as dinner time arrived, but again, more testing to do today. Plugs were inspected/cleaned beforehand.

Main point here is to be sure you have a minimum of 1.5 ohms on the primary side of coil. I got that wrong on initial wiring and is possible it caused coil to fail when originally started it and it ran for the 15 or so seconds back when...
But a spark is still coming down wires per timing light...

Thoughts/Ideas?

Separate issue - once pushed started button, starter would not stop (had to disconnect battery). Disconnected starter button and still ran so figure the starter solenoid/relay has failed/stuck in the on (closed) position. Any good way to bench test this? When trying with just a light in the circuit, couldn't get it to close. Don't know if needs more amps pulling on it to work?

" A spark (evidenced by a timing light) is running down each wire."

If it will blink a light that's a good thing the problem is you are trying to ignite the combustion chamber under compression,,, I am sorry t tell ya but a light will not do it are tell you if the spark is strong enough....

The good thing is if it will blink a timing light then the module is switching... OK its doing its part so at this time I would not waist my time diagnosing the module...

You need a spark checker to properly diagnosis spark...




http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?t=1170719&highlight=gap

As far as the resistor for your front mount all front mount square can coils need them points are EI.... I use the original ballast resistor even with 6V EI positive ground...
 
Interesting. Will certainly test with a plug out, grounded to block to see, and maybe try opening the gap a bit too.

I always know it just can't be that hard. If you have spark, and you have fuel... But here I am (again) working to get yet another tractor/car/mower/blower running. ;-)
 
(quoted from post at 04:22:38 07/24/15) Thanks -

It is an old battery. voltage is there, but amps are down. been charging last few days..

"voltage is there, but amps are down"

I don't understand that statement...
 
Battery charges to about 50%.. when I hook it up, the voltage is about 6.5 volts, but not enough amps/energy stored (due to failing electrolye and/or plates) to last very long.


I *did* get it started today! cleaned up the battery and starter connections and the starter behaved properly.

plugs are sparking too.. after a good while, it did indeed start and even ran smooth and nice at a pretty fast idle for 30-40 seconds with fully open choke.. and then i touched the fast idle screw (turned it in about 1/8 turn) and that killed it immediately.

many more attempts to reset/restart.. a couple more weak starts that didn't stay running but a dozen or less seconds as I tried to tease it into running. Now the battery is done for the day. Recharging again, but likely will bring a new one home soon. After carb cleanouts, finding the right main jet, idle, throttle and choke mix remains a bit of a challenge for me.
 
(quoted from post at 07:10:55 07/24/15) Battery charges to about 50%.. when I hook it up, the voltage is about 6.5 volts, but not enough amps/energy stored (due to failing electrolye and/or plates) to last very long.


I *did* get it started today! cleaned up the battery and starter connections and the starter behaved properly.

plugs are sparking too.. after a good while, it did indeed start and even ran smooth and nice at a pretty fast idle for 30-40 seconds with fully open choke.. and then i touched the fast idle screw (turned it in about 1/8 turn) and that killed it immediately.

many more attempts to reset/restart.. a couple more weak starts that didn't stay running but a dozen or less seconds as I tried to tease it into running. Now the battery is done for the day. Recharging again, but likely will bring a new one home soon. After carb cleanouts, finding the right main jet, idle, throttle and choke mix remains a bit of a challenge for me.

I figgerd you were using a static (no load reading) reading and not a dynamic (loaded ) reading... I just wanted to hear you confirm it...

Folks here use static and it dirty's the water and leads all on a wild goose chase...
 
Got it running, finally. But still some issues.
To get it running:
needed a new starter solenoid which had failed (stuck on),
and new battery (which I new I was needing),
charge the batter (which was woefully weak from the store),
install the solenoid in the right direction (different make, had to be turned around),
tried starting, and no joy so checked again for spark at plugs. No spark, looking forward, the distributor base broke it's lower mount (that's what that "ping" was!), came loose and had to be remounted, Checked it all, remounted, confirmed spark at plugs.
tried starting more. added more gas to tank to 'make sure' there was enough.
Pulled carb for another remove/cleaning.
Finally, finally it started.. and continued running!

But running rough and not much leeway to adjust throttle (can't move too low, or rev up too much or gets weak).
and at first, ammeter was not reading anything, then after poking around the generator with the meter, saw it was reading negative 25-30 amps! Wondering if I repolarized it and if so, with the wrong polarity. Decided time to quit for the night.

Will inquire about the generator and polarity in a separate thread!
:roll:
 
Yesterday's Tractor Forums

We sell tractor parts! We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today.

Back
Top