8N hydraulic problems

Eldon (WA)

Well-known Member
OK, so the 8N is starting on it's own now after a tuneup, starter solenoid, heavy battery cables and a new starter button. The 3pt went down after setting awhile, it was stuck in the up position when I first started to work on the tractor a couple of weeks ago. Today I engaged the pto and it whined a little when I let the clutch out....and the 3pt won't come up. What is the first step? Change the oil? Add oil? If water is in the system can it freeze and cause problems? Thanks for any help.
 
Eldon.........yes, you can have FROZEN water in yer
hydraulic pump. And guess what frozen water does???
IT EXPANDS and breaks things. Definately change yer
5-gals of hydro-tranny oil. Change yer diffy plug
first 'cuz it peeeees with some degree of accuracy.
Surprizingly enuff, iff'n you have water in yer
tranny oil, it comes out first and you can feel the
difference in temperature. ........Dell
 
" What is the first step? Change the oil? Add oil? "

Neither one.

Check the oil. If it's low, add some. If it's milky (as in water logged) change it. But, these pumps aren't self cleaning. The best solution is to drop the pump & clean it out. Then add the new oil. At $50 for the 5 gallons you need, I'd only want to do that once.

Yes, if it has water in it & it freezes, you could crack the pump.

See tips 3 & 4 for more info.
50 Tips
 
ditto what bruce and dell said.

if it has froze water int here.. that could be an issue.

also.. if the control valve and linkage is not moving.. that could be why it stuck up and now won't move.

check for ice / water in the oil and post back..

soundguy
 
(quoted from post at 07:04:00 01/25/12) " What is the first step? Change the oil? Add oil? "

Neither one.

Check the oil. If it's low, add some. If it's milky (as in water logged) change it. But, these pumps aren't self cleaning. The best solution is to drop the pump & clean it out. Then add the new oil. At $50 for the 5 gallons you need, I'd only want to do that once.

Yes, if it has water in it & it freezes, you could crack the pump.

See tips 3 & 4 for more info.
50 Tips
Well I pulled the plugs and got a lot of gooey dark lumpy stuff to run out....looks like at least 90W gear lube. No sign of water so that's good. It wasn't low, but as thick as it was I wonder if it can be pumped....

Can I use the modern Universal Hy-Trans fluid in it?

Does the pump come out the bottom?

Thanks for the info.
 
" Can I use the modern Universal Hy-Trans fluid in it?"

Probably......most UTF is fine. But read the label to see if it says "meets Ford spec mc134"

" Does the pump come out the bottom?"

Yes

There are two ways to clean the pump; the “quick clean” that gets a lot of the sludge out of it, & the right way that gets all of it, including the hard packed crud in the pump base.

For the quick clean, after you get the old fluid drained out (overnight is best) remove both inspection plates & start pulling the sludge in the pump base out by hand. Then, get a couple of gallons of kerosene or diesel fuel & pour it into the pump base. Catch it in a bucket & reuse it. (Some folks use a hand garden sprayer.) Flush the pump base out 5 or 6 times. Do not start the engine to run the kerosene through the pump; kerosene and diesel fuel do not have sufficient lubrication properties for a 60 year old hydraulic pump designed to be immersed in 90w gear oil. Some folks say it’s ok to start the engine, engage the pump for a minute or two, then turn the engine off. Your call on that one.

This 'quick-clean' is not as effective as dropping the pump & doing a full job. But if the choice is between doing nothing & the quick clean, spray it out. It worked for me for 3 years on my 1951 N. If you have the time, drop the pump; that is the right way to do it. I’ve done it both ways & don’t plan on doing the quick clean again. That’s because dropping the pump is not a big deal. If you have hard packed crud in the pump base, you are wasting your time w/ the "quick clean". And, if I recall your previous posts correctly, your tractor has been sitting a long time, so the "quick clean" will waste your time.

With all of the fluid drained out, block the front wheels & get the rear wheels up at least a foot. (you'll see why soon enough) Remove the 4 bolts holding the PTO shaft in & pull it to the rear & out of the tractor. Loosen all of the bolts. Remove all but 2 corner bolts. Then, carefully remove them. If you are lucky, the pump will drop free (and dump a pint or so of hydraulic fluid down your sleeves). If not, wrestle it free. The pump has 'ears' that fit into the housing; wiggle it a bit & it will drop free. If you have the rear tires a foot or more off of the ground, you will have enough arm room to hold the pump & lower it at the same time. Put it on your work bench & remove the safety valve (p/n 638) and the control arm lever (p/n 643) which will allow you to remove the intake & exhaust valves (p/n’s 640 & 698) Drop all of it in a bucket of diesel (or mineral spirits) or your parts washer & let it soak overnight. Once it has a good soaking, get it on the bench & start blowing it out w/ compressed air. Run cleaning fluid into the hydraulic discharge near the test port & make sure you get a good flow out the small hole in the side of the pump were the control valve fits. I don't see much need to pull it down any further just to clean it. But, I always replace the safety valve (p/n 638, about $25) Reinstalling the pump is harder than pulling it out because you have a gasket to worry about. (no sealer on the gasket) And, you will probably need a helper to guide the control rod into the pump rocker shaft unless you’ve done this 6 or 7 times before!

While you have the PTO shaft out, it would be a good time to replace the seal on it. It's got two spring clamps around it. Take your needle nose pliers & remove the one in the front. Then, hang the shaft & bearing housing in your vice & tap the butt end of the shaft; the bearing cap will come off (and the shaft will land on your foot). Then, remove the other spring clip from the other side of the bearing. At this point, remember that you never bought a seal driver & go get a BF socket & drive the seal out. If you have the new style seal, the white side goes out. (open side to the oil) Put some grease on it.

Contrary to conventional wisdom, not a lot of water gets in the oil from the shifter boot. Of course, if it's bad, replace it, but you get water from the draft control spring & the dipstick. But, most water is just a byproduct of the heating/cooling cycle of the oil.

You’ll need a pump gasket, safety valve, inspection plate gasket(s), PTO seal, PTO gasket, gasket sealer & 5 gallons of fluid to do all of the above.

If you want to totally re-do the hydraulics, post back & let us know if you want to pull the top cover & do the lift piston & cam follower pin, etc, If your luck is like mine, you will get the pump all fixed up & change the fluid only to find out the lift piston/cylinder is bad. Along w/ the cam follower pin.
cleanPump.jpg

PTOsealtools.jpg

50 Tips
 
Ok, I took the side plate off and as I move the lever up and down the linkage only moves about 1/4" up and down kindof in a U shaped motion. It looks like the end of it sits in a cup and nothing else moves. Something doesn't seem right....could I have messed something up when I first pulled the lever down a couple of weeks ago? It was really stiff.
 
(quoted from post at 18:13:25 01/25/12) Ok, I took the side plate off and as I move the lever up and down the linkage only moves about 1/4" up and down kindof in a U shaped motion. It looks like the end of it sits in a cup and nothing else moves. Something doesn't seem right....could I have messed something up when I first pulled the lever down a couple of weeks ago? It was really stiff.
hyd_8N_valve_control_range.jpg
 
Thanks for the picture. Mine is all the way out...I wasn't sure of which way it moved, so I didn't want to force anything. I wonder if spraying some carb cleaner on it would help? I can't hardly get my hand in there to try to free it up...and I thought I had small hands! What allows the lift handle to still move when it is stuck?
 
Pump can get really dirty. I took mine completely apart. Then I rebuilt the 3-point as well. Adjusted 3-point per FO-4,got her back together and now lifts and stays up until I push lever down.
a60214.jpg
 
(quoted from post at 18:38:06 01/25/12) Thanks for the picture. Mine is all the way out...I wasn't sure of which way it moved, so I didn't want to force anything. I wonder if spraying some carb cleaner on it would help? I can't hardly get my hand in there to try to free it up...and I thought I had small hands! What allows the lift handle to still move when it is stuck?
robably the long thin control arm bending. Also, the mechanism only provides a 'force' to push the intake control valve into the pump, it provided no 'force' to pull it out. A spring under the intake control valve pushed the valve back out of the pump. All that means is that once the control arm is bent, it may no longer be in a position to push inward & it never could pull outward. If you cant get hand in there, try using a broom handle or such.
 
I got the pump off and the rocker arm off but that valve won't budge tapping it with a rubber hammer. Should both of the valves just pull out once the rocker arm is off? Can they be driven out from the back side?
 
they both slide out from the front. One has a cotter pin on rear, center of pump. Probably have to take pump apart if you can't see it. do they move in and out after some spray lub.There are some small parts inside.
 
(quoted from post at 22:03:18 01/25/12) they both slide out from the front. One has a cotter pin on rear, center of pump. Probably have to take pump apart if you can't see it. do they move in and out after some spray lub.There are some small parts inside.
The one that is pinned to the rocker arm moves freely but doesn't seem to want to come out, the other one is stuck in about mid stroke. I can see the cotter pin in it from the back. I will take a closer look tomorrow.
 
There is a DVD on the 8N hydro pump for sale on this site. It's in parts-DVDs-mis repairs. Igot the one on the engine and it had some good info.
I would spray valve with carb cleaner to free it up.You do not want to damage the bushings that they move in. Those press in and I have no clue if you can get them anywhere.
You mention goo, it may be in pump chambers as well. Do the pistons move in and out freely when center shaft is turned.
 
I got the valve freed up and removed, all the sludge washed off and it is soaking in a bucket of diesel overnight. Went to the dealer and picked up an $11 gasket for it...wow! - but it would have cost more to order it from this site and pay shipping :( Parts guy must have felt sorry for me as he gave me a cap, calendar, koozy, and pocket knife....the other shock was over $80 for a bucket of GL1....I think I will go with the universal hy-trans for now! Hopefully will have the hydraulics together and working tomorrow. Thanks for all the help.
 
paid around 72.00 for 5 gal of good cleaning solvent to do all cleaning and soking. I would let the gunk settle to bottom and pour solvent into another container.
 
Well I didn't realize the other valve was stuck until I put the rocker back on...had to drive it out from the rear, but in the process I dislodged that little internal clip that holds the spring in. That was fun to get back in, finally took a piece of metal tubing and cut a slot in the end wide enough to slide the clip in as it held the spring down. Put two bolts in and used spring pins to hold then just above the gasket, that kept the gasket in place while I installed the pump, wife was nice enough to guide the rod in. Started two other bolts then pulled the spring pins out and tightened everything up...worked pretty slick. Filled with oil and now I have hydraulics! Now it just needs an engine oil change and maybe one brake looked at.....
 
(quoted from post at 20:33:27 01/27/12) Well I didn't realize the other valve was stuck until I put the rocker back on...had to drive it out from the rear, but in the process I dislodged that little internal clip that holds the spring in. That was fun to get back in, finally took a piece of metal tubing and cut a slot in the end wide enough to slide the clip in as it held the spring down. Put two bolts in and used spring pins to hold then just above the gasket, that kept the gasket in place while I installed the pump, wife was nice enough to guide the rod in. Started two other bolts then pulled the spring pins out and tightened everything up...worked pretty slick. Filled with oil and now I have hydraulics! Now it just needs an engine oil change and maybe one brake looked at.....

".....wife was nice enough to guide the rod in."
Sure sounds to me like you have great helper!
Glad you got it going. Was the valve sticking due to rust?
 
(quoted from post at 17:41:36 01/27/12)
(quoted from post at 20:33:27 01/27/12) Well I didn't realize the other valve was stuck until I put the rocker back on...had to drive it out from the rear, but in the process I dislodged that little internal clip that holds the spring in. That was fun to get back in, finally took a piece of metal tubing and cut a slot in the end wide enough to slide the clip in as it held the spring down. Put two bolts in and used spring pins to hold then just above the gasket, that kept the gasket in place while I installed the pump, wife was nice enough to guide the rod in. Started two other bolts then pulled the spring pins out and tightened everything up...worked pretty slick. Filled with oil and now I have hydraulics! Now it just needs an engine oil change and maybe one brake looked at.....

".....wife was nice enough to guide the rod in."
Sure sounds to me like you have great helper!
Glad you got it going. Was the valve sticking due to rust?

No both valves were stuck from sludge that acted like glue. Once the bond was broken, a little pb blaster and they slide like new.
 
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