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8n Problem starting etc......

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bayoudevil

Member
I have a 8n with the electronic ignition on it. Spark is great and fuel flow . I can't seem to get it to start. I have adjusted timing, carburetor and checked governor. When I can get it to start, it will stumble and if I attempt to throttle up it dies. If I adjust the idle speed screw, it dies, If I adjust the timing it dies. Does anyone have any Ideas I could try. I like the old tractor but I am about ready to blow the dang thing up.
 
Need some more info.........

6v or 12v?

Front or side distributor?

Tell us how you checked for spark & fuel flow.

Although the EI unit isn't the likely problem....make & model of the unit?
75 Tips
 
(quoted from post at 17:36:43 05/26/14) I check spark with a spark tester. I have a flow through filter It is a front mount distributor
Click to expand...
Pull the drain plug out of the bottom of the carb.
With the fuel on it should run steady for a minute or two without
slowing down. You should get about a pint per minute.
Catch that gas in a jar or can and inspect it for water or dirt.
If the gas is good and clear you can put it back in the tank.
 
6v or 12v?

Make & model of the EI unit?


" I have a flow through filter"

That's not how to check fuel flow. In fact, that's your likely problem. (see tip # 15)

Get a can & put it under the carb. Remove the bolt in the bottom of the carb; as long as the fuel is turned on, you should see gas flowing out of the carb. Let it run for at least 30 seconds. If it’s a dribble, or runs for 5 seconds & stops, or none at all, you have solved half the problem: it’s fuel related.

If it does not have gas coming out of the carb at a steady stream w/ the bolt out for at least 30 seconds, you have a fuel problem. First, remove the gas cap. Your vent could be clogged & it vacuum locked. If that doesn’t work, tap the carb bowl w/ a hammer handle in case the float is sticking closed. (don’t whack it w/ the head of the hammer; you can crack the bowl). If you still don’t see gas flowing, the N has three fuel screens; one in the brass elbow, one in the top of the sediment bowl & one on the stem of the sediment bowl in the gas tank. Check the screen in the elbow & the screen in the top of the sediment bowl. (don’t worry about the one in the tank) Both probably need to be cleaned. If you have the fuel knob turned on all the way, & 1 gallon or less in the tank, it may be trying to feed off of the reserve inlet which is probably clogged. Only open it 2 full turns. Put at least 2 gallons in the tank. (and do not forget to turn the gas off; see tip # 9)
75 Tips
 

It is a 12 volt system. I have checked the flow of gas and that was fine and clear. I have just rebuilt the engine but was having problems with the old distributor with points. The bushings were worn through and wore out the bushing seat. I upgraded the system with a Protonix ignition. It would run before but was burning up coils and points. That is why I changed it over. The old distributor wouldn't even time correctly. It would move even when I tightened the timing screw. I followed the instructions with the kit and used new wires to install it. I doubled checked everything. I even put the battery on charge thinking it may be too low to provide enough spark but I am getting plenty of spark at the plugs.
I have always heard if you have spark,and you have fuel it should run. I have even tried every position possible on the timing. I am baffeled...........................
 
" It would run before but was burning up coils and points. That is why I changed it over. "

Seriously?

You installed EI because it was burning up coils & points?

You would have had the same result by changing the air in the tires.

It's burning up coils & points because it was getting to much current. You have a resistor problem or a faulty ignition switch (or you're leaving the key on) that allows too much current to the coil/points.

And that same problem can easily burn up the EI module.

So.........

Tell us exactly what resistors you are using. You must use the OEM ballast resistor, as in the pic. Are you? Any other resistors?

Next......

" The bushings were worn through and wore out the bushing seat. "

Did you replace the bushings before you installed the EI unit?

"It would move even when I tightened the timing screw. "

Timing screw? Are you talking about the screw that holds the plate in place? The timing is set by removing the screw & turning the plate until the wide side of the tang is 1/4" from parallel to the lower mounting hole & the points begin to open. As in the pic. Is that how you are setting the timing?

Which brings me to my final question....and this is really for the EI experts but do reply if you know the answer.....I'm not sure at all if it's even possible to set the timing on a front distributor w/ EI simply because you have no way of knowing when "the points begin to open".

Post back w/ more answers. Someone around here will help you get it running.
IMG_20130902_090805_821_zps36da926e.jpg

timing003.jpg

75 Tips
 

First off. I changed the complete distributor. Second, I have the stock style resistor ,Ceramic. Third, yes it would run but it was grounding out inside the distributor. Now, If you are done with the insults. Any suggestions or do you just want to keep going over the same things I have already said. I just want some help, not insults.
 
" do you just want to keep going over the same things I have already said."

I'm trying to help you get it running, but some of your answers are incomplete or just don't make sense.

I can assure you that "...grounding out inside the distributor" did not cause the coil to burn up. Too much current caused that.

You also said " I have set the timing to the basic setting which you show in your picture about six times. It is dead on. "

That does not answer my question: " I'm not sure at all if it's even possible to set the timing on a front distributor w/ EI simply because you have no way of knowing when "the points begin to open". The manual (para 87) states " With the shaft in this position, the contacts should be just starting to open".

You do not have points. So how are you determining when to lock the plate down? For example, the pic shows this particular distributor needed to have the timing advanced by about 8° (two hash marks) to achieve the ¼” measurement.

So, please tell me how you know it's "dead on"?
IMG_20140212_144953_385_zpsd84210ac.jpg
 

I have checked everything I could think of. I used a voltage meter to check for voltage at distributor. I have plenty of fuel ,maybe too much. I have torn the carburetor apart about four time. Set and adjusted the float. Measured at 1/4 in. I have noticed my governor control arms are loose . I don't know if that has anything to do with it or not.
 
(quoted from post at 03:58:55 05/27/14) So my resistor is the wrong one? I bought from here.
Click to expand...

Yes, you have the wrong resistor. And plz answer my question: how do you know when to lock the plate down when you don't know when the points begin to open?
 

Like I said. I spent a lot of time on this tractor. The engine itself is good. I have looked at so many different sites and manuals my head is spinning. I am willing to give you all the information I know about this.
What is the difference in the two resistors?
 

I used two different types of light testers. I used a spark tester inline with the spark plug wires and a probe light. I would move the plate until it either lite up or went out. I would turn the engine over and watch for a spark at the plug wires
 
"What is the difference in the two resistors?"
Click to expand...
The original ballast resistor has a very low resistance when
cold to allow for maximum current to the coil while starting.
Once it is running the coil current heats the resistor and the
resistance goes up reducing current flow to protect the coil.

Ceramic resistors have a fixed value.
 
" What is the difference in the two resistors?"

Unless you post a pic of the resistor you are using & it's value in ohms, I can't tell you the difference. Chances are as Royse said, you have a fixed resistor.

But, assuming you followed the Pertronix instructions correctly (which I also do not have) the resistor is not the likely problem.

Did the instructions tell you to remove the OEM ballast resistor only use the one w/ the kit?

If you are using a light spark checker, put it on another running vehicle & look at the light. It should be equally as bright on your tractor.

What do the Pertronix instructions say about setting the timing?
75 Tips
 
" What do the Pertronix instructions say about setting the timing?"

The reason I ask is because I recall reading somewhere (and it may not have been Pertronix) that you just center the plate on the hash marks & leave it be. In other words, the timing is no longer adjustable.
 

I will get the resistor you pictured. I do have a question on it. I noticed it has three post. I know one side is from the ignition switch, the other to the coil. What goes on the bottom post?
 
Don't bother w/ the resistor unless Petronix says you need it AND their fixed resistor.

Some EI's use both, some just the OEM ballast resistor.

W/o looking at the schematic, the center post is the common; all but the coil & ignition switch attach there, as I recall.

Just Google "wiring diagrams JMOR" if you want to be 100% sure.

So now you have two questions for Petronix. (Do I use the OEM bllast resistor? What should I set the timing at?)

Post back w/ their answers & we'll go from there.
75 Tips
 

Ok. Here is where I am at. I can start the tractor. Checked the spark with a spark tester and have great spark.
Now is where my problem starts. When I give it gas,( move the throttle), It dies. When I adjust the carburetor, It dies. It will idle great unless I mess with them. Am I over looking something?
I looked up in the 75 tips and it said the sediment bowl could be half full but mine is completely full. Is there something wrong with my carb or my governor?
 
" I looked up in the 75 tips and it said the sediment bowl could be half full...."

You misunderstood something. I wrote the 75 Tips; nothing there about a sediment bowl being half full. Which tip are you referring to?

" Is there something wrong with my carb or my governor? "

It's not your governor.

Try adjusting the carb.

Make sure the tractor is at operating temp; that usually takes 10 – 15 minutes at idle depending on ambient temp.

Both Ford and Marvel/Schebler (assuming you have a M/S carb ) say to set both the side-pointing idlemix and the down-pointing mainjet to 1-turn as a starting point. I set the down-pointing mainjet to 1-1/2 turns and don't fool w/ it until the final step.

Then adjust the side-pointing idlemix for fastest idle; not the smoothest idle. Next, adjust the behind the carb idle-speed set-screw for very slow 400-rpms idle. Do that idlemix adjust for maximum idle at least 3-times. Make sure that you turn the screws slowly, like 1/8 of a turn at a time & wait a second or two for the engine to catch up. Take your time!

Do it like this:

1. Adjust idle mix jet until RPM increases

2. Adjust idle-mix set screw until the engine
nearly stops (as slow as you can get it unless you have a tach that tells you 400 rpm)

Repeat steps 1 - 3 three times.

Remember the side-pointing idlemix is out for lean, in for rich.

If you do not have any problems inside the carb, it is easy to get the idle down to 350 - 400 rpms.

Yourlast step is to go back to the main jet. Remember, in for lean, out for rich. If you end up turning it OUT more than ½ turn for max power (remember, you already had it 1 ½ turns out) then stop right there because you have a dirty carb or a fuel problem.
75 Tips
 

I have tried the fast idle screw adjustment but the engine dies. I reset it to two turns out and I am able to restart the tractor. When I try to adjust the carb, it dies again. Would there be a problem in the carb . It doesn't appear to be the timing. I am not getting any back fire or stumbling. It just stops running when I apply any throttle, or attempt to do any adjustment to the idle screw
 
Did you try the adjustment procedure exactly as I described it?

I'll do it again:

Set both the side-pointing idlemix and the down-pointing mainjet to 1-turn as a starting point. I set the down-pointing mainjet to 1-1/2 turns and don't fool w/ it until the final step.

Then adjust the side-pointing idlemix for fastest idle; not the smoothest idle. Next, adjust the behind the carb idle-speed set-screw for very slow 400-rpms idle. Do that idlemix adjust for maximum idle at least 3-times. Make sure that you turn the screws slowly, like 1/8 of a turn at a time & wait a second or two for the engine to catch up. Take your time!

Do it like this:

1. Adjust idle mix jet until RPM increases

2. Adjust idle-mix set screw until the engine
nearly stops (as slow as you can get it unless you have a tach that tells you 400 rpm)

Did you do the adjustments EXACTLY like that on a hot engine?
75 Tips
 

I tried it the way you said but it did the same thing. As soon as I started turning the screw to adjust it, it would die
 
(quoted from post at 18:34:06 05/28/14)
I tried it the way you said but it did the same thing. As soon as I started turning the screw to adjust it, it would die
Click to expand...

I didn't labor through all of the posts you've received so excuse me if you've "been there done that" with whatever I add.

Something I always included in my first or last ditch efforts
was to take out plug one, rotate the engine till you know that #1 is on the way up on the compression stroke. then with my trusty long shank skinny screwdriverin the plug hole -- being careful not to pinch it (a screwdriver that can't fall in) I slowly manually) bring it to TDC via the fan and belt. At that point with the dist bolt loosened you turn the dist backwards (against the direction of rotation) with the key on until the points spark -- ROTOR POINTING TO #1 OF COURSE --and tighten the dist, clamp bolt. Turn the key off. Make sure you've got the firing order right, THE ROTOR ROTATION RIGHT, and that all the plug wires have checked out for resistance . . . blah blah.

Always works so well . . . if your's is a timing or firing order problem . . . that you hardly feel you have to time it any better.

Hope I haven't been redundant and just told you what you already knew.

Cheers,
Terry
 

I have gone through all the timing issues. I have it nailed down. Now it is just keeping the thing running when I attempt to tune the carb.
 

If it will idle fine then dies when you try to give it gas or adjust something then I would agree that you have something wrong with your carb - there are a number of small passages and holes which could be blocked to cause this - also check your float does not have a pin hole in it and is full of gas - causing it to flood when you use it.
Lee
 

Thanks for all the info and patients. This thing has been giving me fits trying to figure it out. I guess it is all in all a learning process.lol
 

There has been plenty of information here regarding cleaning out carbs and correctly adjusting them - also you have to realize that people are trying to help you but they can only go on the information you clearly provide and also posting pictures to go along with your questions will definitely help. Unless you need the tractor urgently for some critical work that will affect your life then just be patient and work through it - they are pretty simple machines and you will eventually find the problem and fix it. Some people get frantic and start pulling things apart, adjusting things, wiring, unwiring, twiddling with knobs and so on and go nowhere fast.
 

To get spark out of the way what spark tester are you using... This is the one I trust... I also have a store brought one that looks like a spark plug that works... I do not trust a home brewed one made out of a used spark plug...

http://www.tooltopia.com/thexton-40...p6830748&gclid=CI-T-LPJ0b4CFbTm7AoduFsA_A

If it will continuously pop 20KV on it spark is notcher problem...

If spark passes with this tester use brake clean are propane injected into the air inlet of the carb to keep it running if it runs off of those you have a fuel issue...
 
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