8n side mount distributor questions

[Rywolf01]

First. Thank you in advance.
Questions:
What is acceptable rotational play? I have a video below.
Are there any Deadman switches or other places to look for shorts?

I'm a younger guy. Points and gaps seem easy to set, but maybe I'm wrong. I'm working on an 8n tractor with side mount distributor. Hopefully my terminology is right. I'm working on a 6v system..For reference the sn is 8n460385.
I have spark from the coil to the top of the distributor. Nothing to plugs. I think the rotor play may be way off. I have replaced the Ignitor. I replaced rotor. I replaced the cap. I replaced the points. New condenser. I gapped the points by rotating to the top of the lobe. Then using 025 feeler. The rotor seems like there's a lot of play
youtube.com/shorts/eqD0-JftVkg?feature=share

I'm at a loss. I feel like it is grounding out only because the negative lug on the distributor is hot. I do not get any spark out of any of the caps. If I rotate flywheel to 0 it seems to point at 1.

Back end story, unit started up, after about 30 seconds, it quit. First thought was fuel. Then I pulled spark plugs and there was no spark. Last time points were done was in 2002 along with coil and condenser. This is why I thought the points, coil, and condenser.

Thank you very much. Hard to find good information.

 

[JMOR]

Probably missing this clip:

but I ran for years without one. Rotor does not 'have to be' aligned with post in cap , as spark will jump a good gap.

 

[Bruce (VA)]

You won't get anything out of the cap because it's a HV connection. Meaning the 20 k volts from the coil travels down that fat wire in the middle of the cap,
through the rotor then jumps the gap from the tip of the rotor to the tabs in the cap, then to the plug wires & plugs. If the rotor actually touches the tabs in
the cap, you have a serious problem.

It's more likely your problem is in the primary circuit, the points/condenser, anyway. So concentrate your efforts there.

Confirm that you have voltage to the coil. Battery voltage, points open. About half that if the points are closed.


Do you have battery voltage across the points when they are open? (with the points open, put one probe on one side of the points & the other probe on the
opposite side of the points) Verify the gap on the points at .025. Then, dress the points by running a piece of card stock or brown paper bag through them. New
points sometimes have an anti-corrosive dielectric coating on them & old points can corrode or pick up grease from a dirty feeler gauge or excessive cam
lubricant. (I always spray my feeler gauge blade off w/ contact cleaner.) Make sure you have voltage across the points, as in past the insulator on the side of
the distributor. That is a very common failure point on sidemounts, along w/ the attached copper strip. It's hard to find a short there because it is usually
an intermittent . So 'wiggle' the insulator & the copper strip a bit when you are doing your checking. If you find the short there, the Master Parts catalog
lists everything you need on page 154. You can make the strip and you could also make the insulators as well. But, somethings are just easier & in the long run
cheaper to buy. Get the strip, 12209, screw 350032-S, 12233 bushing & 12234 insulator & just replace it all.





If you just replaced the rotor & lost spark, put the old one back in. Insure that the rotor fits firmly on the shaft & that the little clip is there. Make sure
the distributor cap is not cracked, doesnt have gouges in it from the rotor or brass shavings & doesn't have carbon tracks. Check continuity on the secondary
coil wire. Make sure it is firmly seated in both the cap & the coil. Next, remove the secondary coil wire from the center of the distributor cap, turn the key
on & crank the engine while holding the end of the wire 1/4 from a rust & paint free spot on the engine. You should see & hear a nice blue/white spark. If not,
you have a bad coil or condenser. Just put the old condenser back in to eliminate that as a possibility.
75 Tips

 

[Rywolf01]

The clip is there. I appreciate the response though

 

[Rywolf01]

You know, I think the problem may be the rotor touching the points on the cap. The negative lug gets hot at the bottom of the distributor. I'll check the voltage through the points. Saw someone post a video of that. I check continuity at the copper strap that the condenser is connected to. Seemed good. No noticeable breaks. I feel like I should have just bought a new distributor at this point. Figured I could save the one in there. I don't have spark to any plugs. That's the odd part for me. Guess I'll keep at it till I figure it out.
6.3v at battery and at plus side of coil. The negative ground to distributor has continuity to lug on distributior as well. I see a spark occur inside the points if I have the cap off.

This post was edited by Rywolf01 on 09/29/2021 at 05:34 pm.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 20:24:34 09/29/21) The clip is there. I appreciate the response though

s much rotor slop as in video isn't right, but probably isn't your no spark problem. As Bruce suggested, try another condenser.....even an old one.

 

[Rywolf01]

(quoted from post at 02:45:42 09/30/21)

(quoted from post at 20:24:34 09/29/21) The clip is there. I appreciate the response though

s much rotor slop as in video isn't right, but probably isn't your no spark problem. As Bruce suggested, try another condenser.....even an old one.

Thank you for your response. I did try the old condenser as well prior to posting. I tried three caps, including a new one. I have continuity into all three caps. The resistance on the wires to plugs is 12 to 10. Spark out of coil seems very consistent with new coil. The old coil had spark but was not as steady.
On the cap there is a one, but will only drop into the dust cover one way. It appears to line up with one. It is a ccw rotation. Saw some were cw and some were ccw. From my understanding the post next to head bolt is #1. The 2 4 3 out of the cap. I've pulled all 4 plugs out though and not one sparks.
Again, appreciate all the help and suggestions.

 

[Tim PloughNman Daley]

There shouldn't be much if any slop in the rotor shaft. Get your essentia manuals if you don't already have them but it sounds like you do. When mucking with the
electrical always disconnect the battery to troubleshoot the wiring with you VOM set to continuity. Just because you have a 6V battery don't assume the system is wired
correctly for the 6V/POS GRN system. Do you have the 3-Wire/2-Brush 20 AMP GEN and the VR in the circuit? Does the GEN have the proper belt tension bracket? The starter
motor should be a 3-Wire Unit with a Solenoid. Forget about any serial number on engine block, it means nothing. You either have a front mount or a side mount system on
an 8N so be sure settings are correct for each -they are different. Don't be guessing- ...first I thought it was fuel.... OK, non-starting issue should be the first
test -fuel flow. Pass? Yes? Leave it alone and move on. You need to set wiring setup correctly in order to set the timing. The FORD 8N Angle Mount Model specs: Breaker
Points - .025; Spark Plug -14mm Champion H12 or AUTO-LITE 437, gapped at .025-.028. FIRING ORDER - 1,2,4,3 CCW. With timing light, set at 4 BTDC at 350 RPM. You can
troubleshoot all the wiring first and then if still a no-go scenario, get into the distributor. 19 years is a long time to go between tune-ups especially if tractor was
worked hard.






FORD 8N TRACTOR 6V/POS GRN WIRING w/ANGLE MOUNT DISTRIBUTOR:

FORD N-SERIES TRACTOR ESSENTIAL OWNER/OPERATOR/PARTS/SERVICE MANUALS:

Tim Daley(MI)

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 05:22:05 09/30/21)

(quoted from post at 02:45:42 09/30/21)

(quoted from post at 20:24:34 09/29/21) The clip is there. I appreciate the response though

s much rotor slop as in video isn't right, but probably isn't your no spark problem. As Bruce suggested, try another condenser.....even an old one.

Thank you for your response. I did try the old condenser as well prior to posting. I tried three caps, including a new one. I have continuity into all three caps. The resistance on the wires to plugs is 12 to 10. Spark out of coil seems very consistent with new coil. The old coil had spark but was not as steady.
On the cap there is a one, but will only drop into the dust cover one way. It appears to line up with one. It is a ccw rotation. Saw some were cw and some were ccw. From my understanding the post next to head bolt is #1. The 2 4 3 out of the cap. I've pulled all 4 plugs out though and not one sparks.
Again, appreciate all the help and suggestions.

iven the appearance of uncertainty, I will say that all 8N distributors rotated CCW and the depending on how distributor was installed, any cap tower could be #1 and the # molded into the cap becomes meaningless. Easy <5 minute solution is to try all four. As for the excess rotational slop in rotor, is all that between the shaft & rotor? In other words, if you remove the rotor and grab the shaft with pliers, does shaft have same slop?

 

[Btzj02]

"I feel like it is grounding out only because the negative lug on the distributor is hot."

Sounds like you checked for continuity but did you verify no grounding at the distributor primary terminal? See part 17 on Tim's exploded view. That sleeve keeps the ignition circuit isolated from ground!

 

[Jim L WA]

Rynwold01, I've read your post about 3 times now and the responses from the others. You say you are getting spark to the top of the cap. So, the primary ignition is working. To see the spark going into the center post of the cap means there is a path to ground somewhere, so the rotor must be close to a plug terminal. To prove out what Btzj02 said about the primary terminal shorting to ground, with the key off, hook your ohm meter from that post to ground. Rotate the engine until the points open. Does the ohm meter go to infinity or does it still show some resistance?

 

[Btzj02]

Rywolf01
When you get there, and you will, please post the resolution of your problem. Always good to hear the resolution and the troubleshooting that led to the fixing of a "no spark" problem.

 

[KristofMI]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-JUeOhTuxo

 

[Rywolf01]

(quoted from post at 13:13:09 10/01/21) www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-JUeOhTuxo

I've definitely watched many of her videos. I ran through all those steps prior to posting. I looked a little closer at the cap it looks like the rotor may be running against it. Doesn't seem like a lot of axis or rotational play in shaft. I'm going to see if Napa has a rotor spring. Power to the lug. Got a video I'll edit and upload later. Really wish I'd just made it a point to do this electronic ignition, but if the rotor is hitting the cap, guess it wouldn't matter anyway?

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 11:56:01 10/02/21)

(quoted from post at 13:13:09 10/01/21) www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-JUeOhTuxo

I've definitely watched many of her videos. I ran through all those steps prior to posting. I looked a little closer at the cap it looks like the rotor may be running against it. Doesn't seem like a lot of axis or rotational play in shaft. I'm going to see if Napa has a rotor spring. Power to the lug. Got a video I'll edit and upload later. Really wish I'd just made it a point to do this electronic ignition, but if the rotor is hitting the cap, guess it wouldn't matter anyway?

f rotor hits cal, you will know it by broken parts.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 12:03:15 10/02/21)

(quoted from post at 11:56:01 10/02/21)

(quoted from post at 13:13:09 10/01/21) www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-JUeOhTuxo

I've definitely watched many of her videos. I ran through all those steps prior to posting. I looked a little closer at the cap it looks like the rotor may be running against it. Doesn't seem like a lot of axis or rotational play in shaft. I'm going to see if Napa has a rotor spring. Power to the lug. Got a video I'll edit and upload later. Really wish I'd just made it a point to do this electronic ignition, but if the rotor is hitting the cap, guess it wouldn't matter anyway?

f rotor hits cal, you will know it by broken parts.

urthermore, until you first make if run with points, EI will only compound you troubleshooting efforts!

 

[Rywolf01]

Thinking I'd be better off with an already built distributor. Checked everything, but it does seem like the rotor gap is not low enough. Not sure if there's a shim to raise the cap. It's still grounding somewhere out of sight. Gets a good strong spark to the cap. I used a homemade test light and there's certainly power. I'll upload video later. Maybe someone can see my mistake(s).

 

[deanostoybox]

There is no shim to raise the distributor cap. There is a <a href=https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/Ford-8N_Distributor-Dust-Cap_FAA12239A.html>dust cover</a> though.

Your rotor may be shorted. That can happen if it gets a crack or if it has a defect (pinhole) where the spark can make its way to the distributor shaft.

 

[Rywolf01]

(quoted from post at 18:07:44 10/02/21) There is no shim to raise the distributor cap. There is a &lt;a href=https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/Ford-8N_Distributor-Dust-Cap_FAA12239A.html&gt;dust cover&lt;/a&gt; though.

Your rotor may be shorted. That can happen if it gets a crack or if it has a defect (pinhole) where the spark can make its way to the distributor shaft.

Tried new rotor as well. We opted to purchase a new distributor from scamazon. Will keep all you great folks posted. The dust cap, Spring, rotor clip all looked worn. The dust cap had a small chip where it lines up with distributor, but didn't look like it would cause an issue. Hindsight, should have bought the whole thing to begin with.

 

[KristofMI]

(quoted from post at 17:35:54 10/03/21)

(quoted from post at 18:07:44 10/02/21) There is no shim to raise the distributor cap. There is a &lt;a href=https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/Ford-8N_Distributor-Dust-Cap_FAA12239A.html&gt;dust cover&lt;/a&gt; though.

Your rotor may be shorted. That can happen if it gets a crack or if it has a defect (pinhole) where the spark can make its way to the distributor shaft.

Tried new rotor as well. We opted to purchase a new distributor from scamazon. Will keep all you great folks posted. The dust cap, Spring, rotor clip all looked worn. The dust cap had a small chip where it lines up with distributor, but didn't look like it would cause an issue. Hindsight, should have bought the whole thing to begin with.

If you watched the video they say normally 8N side distributor doesn't come with dust cap but some folks modify them to add one. BTW I'm going to add electronic ignition also.

This post was edited by KristofMI on 10/04/2021 at 05:25 am.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 08:24:08 10/04/21)

(quoted from post at 17:35:54 10/03/21)

(quoted from post at 18:07:44 10/02/21) There is no shim to raise the distributor cap. There is a &lt;a href=https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/Ford-8N_Distributor-Dust-Cap_FAA12239A.html&gt;dust cover&lt;/a&gt; though.

Your rotor may be shorted. That can happen if it gets a crack or if it has a defect (pinhole) where the spark can make its way to the distributor shaft.

Tried new rotor as well. We opted to purchase a new distributor from scamazon. Will keep all you great folks posted. The dust cap, Spring, rotor clip all looked worn. The dust cap had a small chip where it lines up with distributor, but didn't look like it would cause an issue. Hindsight, should have bought the whole thing to begin with.

s for the dust cap, there is adequate design margin in the body, shaft, cap and rotor to accommodate a dust shield or not. My proof lies in careful measurements and having run my 8N both with and without the shield in place. There is adequate space , such that the additional 0.11 in height that dust shield will raise the cap, still places the rotor tip within the 0.2 in machined area of post. You can do as I have done, make careful measurements and verify with wax melted onto post, rotate shaft/rotor examine wax for rotor tip impression. This area is not your problem.

This post was edited by JMOR on 10/04/2021 at 08:09 am.

 

[R Geiger]

(quoted from post at 06:24:08 10/04/21)

(quoted from post at 17:35:54 10/03/21)

(quoted from post at 18:07:44 10/02/21) There is no shim to raise the distributor cap. There is a &lt;a href=https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/Ford-8N_Distributor-Dust-Cap_FAA12239A.html&gt;dust cover&lt;/a&gt; though.

Your rotor may be shorted. That can happen if it gets a crack or if it has a defect (pinhole) where the spark can make its way to the distributor shaft.

Tried new rotor as well. We opted to purchase a new distributor from scamazon. Will keep all you great folks posted. The dust cap, Spring, rotor clip all looked worn. The dust cap had a small chip where it lines up with distributor, but didn't look like it would cause an issue. Hindsight, should have bought the whole thing to begin with.

If you watched the video they say normally 8N side distributor doesn't come with dust cap but some folks modify them to add one. BTW I'm going to add electronic ignition also.

This post was edited by KristofMI on 10/04/2021 at 05:25 am.

ish you luck with the new dist you bought!! It MIGHT work! Don't throw the old away! Probably not much wrong with it!.

 

[Rywolf01]

(quoted from post at 10:41:45 10/04/21)

(quoted from post at 06:24:08 10/04/21)

(quoted from post at 17:35:54 10/03/21)

(quoted from post at 18:07:44 10/02/21) There is no shim to raise the distributor cap. There is a &lt;a href=https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/Ford-8N_Distributor-Dust-Cap_FAA12239A.html&gt;dust cover&lt;/a&gt; though.

Your rotor may be shorted. That can happen if it gets a crack or if it has a defect (pinhole) where the spark can make its way to the distributor shaft.

Tried new rotor as well. We opted to purchase a new distributor from scamazon. Will keep all you great folks posted. The dust cap, Spring, rotor clip all looked worn. The dust cap had a small chip where it lines up with distributor, but didn't look like it would cause an issue. Hindsight, should have bought the whole thing to begin with.

If you watched the video they say normally 8N side distributor doesn't come with dust cap but some folks modify them to add one. BTW I'm going to add electronic ignition also.

This post was edited by KristofMI on 10/04/2021 at 05:25 am.

ish you luck with the new dist you bought!! It MIGHT work! Don't throw the old away! Probably not much wrong with it!.

Bought a new distributor off scamazon. 113. Should have done that to begin with. Spark restored.

 

[Rywolf01]

https://youtu.be/r6AcroAWkD8

I want to thank everyone that assisted in helping me resolve this issue. The rotor was shorting out on the cap. The cheap distributor from scamazon resolved the issue. I am very thankful for the great depth of insight and help from this forum.

Positive perceptions equal positive outcomes.
Make it an awesome day!
Kind Regards,
Ryan


This post was edited by Rywolf01 on 10/18/2021 at 06:54 am.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 09:49:35 10/18/21) https://youtu.be/r6AcroAWkD8

I want to thank everyone that assisted in helping me resolve this issue. The rotor was shorting out on the cap. The cheap distributor from scamazon resolved the issue. I am very thankful for the great depth of insight and help from this forum.

Positive perceptions equal positive outcomes.
Make it an awesome day!
Kind Regards,
Ryan


This post was edited by Rywolf01 on 10/18/2021 at 06:54 am.

The rotor was shorting out on the cap" What does that mean?? Shorting from where to where?

 

[Rywolf01]

(quoted from post at 12:48:33 10/18/21)

(quoted from post at 09:49:35 10/18/21) https://youtu.be/r6AcroAWkD8

I want to thank everyone that assisted in helping me resolve this issue. The rotor was shorting out on the cap. The cheap distributor from scamazon resolved the issue. I am very thankful for the great depth of insight and help from this forum.

Positive perceptions equal positive outcomes.
Make it an awesome day!
Kind Regards,
Ryan


This post was edited by Rywolf01 on 10/18/2021 at 06:54 am.

The rotor was shorting out on the cap" What does that mean?? Shorting from where to where?

Exactly?! What does that mean? The rotor was hitting the cap. My guess is the spring, the gear, or a combination of circumstances allowed the rotor to hit the cap on rotation. However, since I was already $40 in for cap, rotor, points, condenser, I opted to buy a distributor. Only regret is not doing that to begin with.

 

[R Geiger]

(quoted from post at 11:04:56 10/18/21)

(quoted from post at 12:48:33 10/18/21)

(quoted from post at 09:49:35 10/18/21) https://youtu.be/r6AcroAWkD8

I want to thank everyone that assisted in helping me resolve this issue. The rotor was shorting out on the cap. The cheap distributor from scamazon resolved the issue. I am very thankful for the great depth of insight and help from this forum.

Positive perceptions equal positive outcomes.
Make it an awesome day!
Kind Regards,
Ryan
I would suspect that the rotor that was hitting the cap was the wrong part number rotor.

The rotor was shorting out on the cap" What does that mean?? Shorting from where to where?

I would suspect that the rotor that was hitting the cap was the wrong one or the cap was the wrong one.

This post was edited by R Geiger on 10/18/2021 at 10:49 am.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 13:47:09 10/18/21)

(quoted from post at 11:04:56 10/18/21)

(quoted from post at 12:48:33 10/18/21)

(quoted from post at 09:49:35 10/18/21) https://youtu.be/r6AcroAWkD8

I want to thank everyone that assisted in helping me resolve this issue. The rotor was shorting out on the cap. The cheap distributor from scamazon resolved the issue. I am very thankful for the great depth of insight and help from this forum.

Positive perceptions equal positive outcomes.
Make it an awesome day!
Kind Regards,
Ryan
I would suspect that the rotor that was hitting the cap was the wrong part number rotor.

The rotor was shorting out on the cap" What does that mean?? Shorting from where to where?

Exactly?! What does that mean? The rotor was hitting the cap. My guess is the spring, the gear, or a combination of circumstances allowed the rotor to hit the cap on rotation. However, since I was already $40 in for cap, rotor, points, condenser, I opted to buy a distributor. Only regret is not doing that to begin with.

I would suspect that the rotor that was hitting the cap was the wrong one or the cap was the wrong one.

This post was edited by R Geiger on 10/18/2021 at 10:49 am.

Geiger, he already replaced cap, rotor, spring, etc. and IF rotor was hitting cap, there would be broken parts, NOT a 'short in cap'. What is there to short to in the cap?? He never found the problem and is guessing. We will never know what his problem was, since he gave up and bought all new, but I guess he at least has a running tractor now and is a happy camper.

 

[Rywolf01]

I have to giggle. Better yet, you can find more about shorting distributor cap/rotor here.
https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=nboard&amp;th=710636

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 14:57:03 10/18/21)
I have to giggle. Better yet, you can find more about shorting distributor cap/rotor here.
https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=nboard&amp;th=710636

eah, me too....ha ha ha, so you have , what is it, 3 or 4 caps with this same exact fault?????

 

[Rywolf01]

3 caps. Some dating back as far as 25 plus years. Don't think the caps are bad based on continuity. The rotors seem good, don't look terrible. However, $10 or 13 for a new spring, the bushing between the dust cover, the dust cover, maybe counterweights, maybe a gear, etc, $113 for a complete unit. Honestly, it will be what I do going forward. Last setup lasted 20 years.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 16:41:58 10/18/21) 3 caps. Some dating back as far as 25 plus years. Don't think the caps are bad based on continuity. The rotors seem good, don't look terrible. However, $10 or 13 for a new spring, the bushing between the dust cover, the dust cover, maybe counterweights, maybe a gear, etc, $113 for a complete unit. Honestly, it will be what I do going forward. Last setup lasted 20 years.

'm not criticizing the decision to buy all new distributor. I would for certain reasons do the same. I am just saying the the problem is not proven, beyond a reasonably doubt. We are simply not going to know what was going on. Happy tractoring.