8N starter help

[Mike Gilchrist]

I went to start the 49 8N the other day. Solenoid clicks, bendix does not engage. Direct connect with wheeled charger just makes motor hum.

Ordered a new on. Removed old (of course the case came apart.) The hole the starter drive goes into has the goose egg shape so positioning the new one seemed fairly trivial. It was. Bolted down, hooked up wires.

Same thing. Direct connect, it just hums. Take it back out. It spins fine on the bench. Look here and find friendly advice on tilting, getting starter drive behind flywheel. Put it back in and bolt it down. Same thing.

Take it out. Measure the distance from the mounting face on the block to the ring gear -- about an inch.

Measure distance from body of starter to starter gear - more than an inch.

We hooked a chain to the tractor and to my Jeep and rocked it while I looked at the ring gear. It turns, so the engine doesn't appear to be siezed up.

OK gurus, what am I doing wrong? It is a new style starter, and doesn't have the spring and spacers like the OEM model. Otherwise critical measurements appear to be the same.

Shouldn't the gear and bendix be farther back, (more fully extended on starter shaft) behind the flywheel? Am I somehow putting it in partially meshed and it's binding?

To top it off, I am preparing for snow, and just had my machinist put a front loader on it I bought from a neighbor - live hydaulics and done right. The blade is also on the back and weights are installed. Soooo, it is almost impossible to "pull start" because of course both the bucket and blade are down.

Help!

Kind Rgerds,

Mike

 

[Dunk]

(quoted from post at 16:56:58 12/05/09) I went to start the 49 8N the other day. Solenoid clicks, bendix does not engage. Direct connect with wheeled charger just makes motor hum.

Ordered a new on. Removed old (of course the case came apart.) The hole the starter drive goes into has the goose egg shape so positioning the new one seemed fairly trivial. It was. Bolted down, hooked up wires.

Same thing. Direct connect, it just hums. Take it back out. It spins fine on the bench. Look here and find friendly advice on tilting, getting starter drive behind flywheel. Put it back in and bolt it down. Same thing.

Take it out. Measure the distance from the mounting face on the block to the ring gear -- about an inch.

Measure distance from body of starter to starter gear - more than an inch.

We hooked a chain to the tractor and to my Jeep and rocked it while I looked at the ring gear. It turns, so the engine doesn't appear to be siezed up.

OK gurus, what am I doing wrong? It is a new style starter, and doesn't have the spring and spacers like the OEM model. Otherwise critical measurements appear to be the same.

Shouldn't the gear and bendix be farther back, (more fully extended on starter shaft) behind the flywheel? Am I somehow putting it in partially meshed and it's binding?

To top it off, I am preparing for snow, and just had my machinist put a front loader on it I bought from a neighbor - live hydaulics and done right. The blade is also on the back and weights are installed. Soooo, it is almost impossible to "pull start" because of course both the bucket and blade are down.

Help!

Kind Rgerds,

Mike

What happens if you short the large solenoid terminals with pliers handles?

What happens if you take a 12v battery, and a set of jumper cables, and hook one cable to the starter terminal, and the other to the tractor frame?

Make sure it is out of gear, twice!!

 

[Mike Gilchrist]

The wires are not even on now. I have a large capacity wheeled charger. Positive to the frame, neg to the stud, no joy. So it is the starter, flywheel, bendix, but NOT the solenoid.

Mike

 

[Dunk]

(quoted from post at 17:12:40 12/05/09) The wires are not even on now. I have a large capacity wheeled charger. Positive to the frame, neg to the stud, no joy. So it is the starter, flywheel, bendix, but NOT the solenoid.

Mike

The starter doesn't care about polarity, but it does care about AMPS (current).

I would recommend a battery instead of, or in addition to, your charger.

 

[souNdguy]

what are you doing wrong? you are using a battery charger to turn a starter. notice your tractor has a battery for that job.. not a charger.

even a 100a booster charger will not kick that over on the low ohm load of that starter, by itself..

use a BATTERY to test her out.

soundguy

 

[Dell (WA)]

Mike......you need about 250-AMPS to kick yer starter motor over. Gitta BATTERY to provide that. Connect 12v direct to yer starter stud with the flat copper strap ......Dell

 

[Mike Gilchrist]

I have a really BIG wheeled charger, shop type. It puts out 185 amp. Samew thing happens when I hook everything back up. Once it shot sparks from the the starter casing. Something seems to be bound up, not meshing etc ... Don't think it is power related.

 

[Dunk]

(quoted from post at 17:37:40 12/05/09) I have a really BIG wheeled charger, shop type. It puts out 185 amp. Samew thing happens when I hook everything back up. Once it shot sparks from the the starter casing. Something seems to be bound up, not meshing etc ... Don't think it is power related.

Shooting sparks from the casing could just be a bad ground connection where it bolts to the block, clean that area good, starter, and block.

I still am not convinced that your 185 amp charger, is as good as a battery.

 

[Mike Gilchrist]

OK, I'll go back out and hook everything back up and use battery and charger.

 

[Mike Gilchrist]

Charger has a 250 amp 12V setting. I tried that. Heated up but did not turn. It appears something is bound up. What could it be?

 

[Mike Gilchrist]

Nice bright metal to metal. Bound up?

 

[Dunk]

(quoted from post at 17:47:32 12/05/09) Nice bright metal to metal. Bound up?

Does it sound like the starter turns, and runs, and does not catch the ring gear?

Could the ring gear be slipping? Should be able to check that with the starter out, and move it with a large screwdriver.

My assumption, and understanding so far is that it does not sound like the starter turns, runs.

 

[Mike Gilchrist]

Doesn't even sounf like it's trying to ingage, but won't spin either. Motor hums like the gears are bound.

Is there some trick I'm missing putting it back in the tractor? It's cold out, and I've run out of light.

Tomorrow I WILL take it all back out and make sure all connections are clean and shiny. Saw some faint sparks at the post where negative battery cable meets the solenoid -- maybe I don't have a low enough resistance. But still think somethings bound. Thanks.

Oh, that was with battery AND charger set to 185 amps 6V.

Mike

 

[Dunk]

(quoted from post at 18:32:08 12/05/09) Doesn't even sounf like it's trying to ingage, but won't spin either. Motor hums like the gears are bound.

Is there some trick I'm missing putting it back in the tractor? It's cold out, and I've run out of light.

Tomorrow I WILL take it all back out and make sure all connections are clean and shiny. Saw some faint sparks at the post where negative battery cable meets the solenoid -- maybe I don't have a low enough resistance. But still think somethings bound. Thanks.

Oh, that was with battery AND charger set to 185 amps 6V.

Mike

The cables can even go bad inside the crimped on ends.

 

[Mike Gilchrist]

OK. So maybe put a new battery wire on it huh? Only thing open would be Thiesens and Walmart tomorrow. I'll take it out and see how long it is.

Based on what I've said, is there anything that could be binding it up?

The driveline gear for the Prince pump uses a replacement pulley, spline and shaft. Runs off the front of the engine, so the starter has to move that as well as the engine.

New battery by-the-way -- this fall.

I'll make everything nice and shiny tommorow and see what happens.

Thanks!

Mike

 

[Dunk]

(quoted from post at 19:37:39 12/05/09) OK. So maybe put a new battery wire on it huh? Only thing open would be Thiesens and Walmart tomorrow. I'll take it out and see how long it is.

Based on what I've said, is there anything that could be binding it up?

The driveline gear for the Prince pump uses a replacement pulley, spline and shaft. Runs off the front of the engine, so the starter has to move that as well as the engine.

New battery by-the-way -- this fall.

I'll make everything nice and shiny tommorow and see what happens.

Thanks!

Mike

Earlier I gave you one of the most simplest suggestions.

Take the battery out of yer Ole Lady's car, a 12v, and get out yer jumper cables, and hook the jumper cables to yer Ole Lady's battery.

Hook one to the starter terminal, then touch the other to the tractor chassis, and let us know what happens.

 

[Mike Gilchrist]

So I just went out and hooked some heavy duty jumper cables to the Jeep and tried to spin the starter. Loaded the Jeep down, heated the cables, but no joy.

Is there any way to put that new version starter in wrong? I mean if it looks like everything goes over the gear ring, and I can tighten the bolts, it should work, right?

I just had the front loader put on. It would start easily at first, but once the engine was warm, it was hard starting, but would crank.

I replaced the coil. It seemed to fix the hard starting problem. I turned the tractor off, did something else. When I came back and tried to start it, I only got solenoid clicks.

So, deciding it was the starter, bought this new one, took out the old and installed the new, and reinstalled the new, and reinstalled the new. So here I am -- dead tractor and snow coming.

Mike

 

[Dunk]

(quoted from post at 12:42:57 12/06/09) So I just went out and hooked some heavy duty jumper cables to the Jeep and tried to spin the starter. Loaded the Jeep down, heated the cables, but no joy.

Is there any way to put that new version starter in wrong? I mean if it looks like everything goes over the gear ring, and I can tighten the bolts, it should work, right?

I just had the front loader put on. It would start easily at first, but once the engine was warm, it was hard starting, but would crank.

I replaced the coil. It seemed to fix the hard starting problem. I turned the tractor off, did something else. When I came back and tried to start it, I only got solenoid clicks.

So, deciding it was the starter, bought this new one, took out the old and installed the new, and reinstalled the new, and reinstalled the new. So here I am -- dead tractor and snow coming.

Mike

Now you have me convinced that something is binding, or stuck.

Do the teeth on the new bendix appear to match the old one?

You already said that you have rocked it, and the flywheel turned, with the starter out, right?

 

[Mike Gilchrist]

Yes they appear to be the same looking at the old starter. When I had the starter out, I had my wife rock the tractor with Jeep and chain. I could see the ring gear at least wiggling back and forth.

I jacked up the blade and secured it with a chain. That was hard.

I am jacking up the front loader and think I can secure it with a hilift jack. THEN, I'll have her try to pull start me. Or, is that bad if I have something bound?

Could there be some bad teeth on the flywheel? I did try to pull start it at the beginning of all this, so the flywheel has to be in a different position.

The way I see it, either I have the starter bound some way. The engine is seized. Or, some way the new live hydraulic system is holding it back?

Should I try pull starting it or not?

Mike

 

[Dunk]

One thing that comes to mind is that most of the folks here say that if a bendix falls off of the starter in the cavity, leave it, there is plenty of room in there.

That would freak me out, and I would have to get it out, there are many that are found in there years later, and I have heard of at least one on here jambing the works.

Can you turn the ring gear, and engine with a long screwdriver when the starter is out?

Yes bad teeth on a flywheel can cause problems.

I wish I could answer your question about the front pump intelligently, but am not sure that I can...

I will try...

If you suspect it to be the front mount pump, try taking the lines loose from it, if that isn't too hard, at least the pressure one, for a brief test.

There are many here that know a lot more than me about that.

 

[Mike Gilchrist]

Once I got the bucket and the blade off the ground, I had my wife pull me in reverse. Started right up! Then it promptly started pumping hydraulic fluid on the ground.

It blew the "oil filter" completely off!

My theory is since I didn't change the hydraulic fluid, and it looks beige on the ground, it had water in it. The water froze in the filter, that's my theory.

I'll figure the damage during daylight. I shut the tractor off and got it started again with the starter and on-board battery.

At least I know what to do now.

Thanks for your help and tenacity.

Mike

 

[Mike Gilchrist]

Dunk:

Once I got the bucket and the blade off the ground, I had my wife pull me in reverse. Started right up! Then it promptly started pumping hydraulic fluid on the ground.
It blew the "oil filter" completely off!

My theory is since I didn't change the hydraulic fluid, and it looks beige on the ground, it had water in it. The water froze in the filter, that's my theory.

I'll figure the damage during daylight. I shut the tractor off and got it started again with the starter and on-board battery.

At least I know what to do now.

Thanks for your help and tenacity.

Mike

 

[Dunk]

(quoted from post at 19:43:11 12/06/09) Dunk:

Once I got the bucket and the blade off the ground, I had my wife pull me in reverse. Started right up! Then it promptly started pumping hydraulic fluid on the ground.
It blew the "oil filter" completely off!

My theory is since I didn't change the hydraulic fluid, and it looks beige on the ground, it had water in it. The water froze in the filter, that's my theory.

I'll figure the damage during daylight. I shut the tractor off and got it started again with the starter and on-board battery.

At least I know what to do now.

Thanks for your help and tenacity.

Mike

I could be wrong, but I would have thought that the filter should have been on the suction side of the pump, not the pressure side.

 

[Mike Gilchrist]

(quoted from post at 13:20:37 12/07/09)

(quoted from post at 19:43:11 12/06/09) Dunk:


I could be wrong, but I would have thought that the filter should have been on the suction side of the pump, not the pressure side.

I got a new filter holder and filter from CarQuest and plumbed it in. I put ATF in the 5 gallon reservoir for lower viscosity. Hooked up my engine tank heater for a while. It popped right off and seems to be back to normal.

There is a filter by-pass valve and orifice on the filter mount. I'm not sure if that was clogged on the old one or exactly what happened. It's a good thing it worked though, we've gotten 14 inches of snow and it's blowing like the dickens out. It will probably be tomorrow or late tonight before I even begin to dig out.

I went to get an armload of wood from the cord I keep near the back door and had to shovel about 3 feet of snow first.

This is going to be fun.

Thanks for your help!

Mike Gilchrist