8N starting problem.

[jmiller0580]

I'm hoping I can get some good advice/direction here. I've been pouring through discussions and Googling over and over but I finally decided to post.

My family and I are currently trying to restore/repair my Grandfather's '52 8N, side mount distributor, 6V system. He's been passed since 2017 and I know it had sat for some time prior to that. Unfortunately the knowledge of what has, and hasn't been done, passed with him.

Currently, the tractor is refusing to turn over. It's also cranking extremely hard/slow. We have gotten it running only three other times in the past but it was a fight each time. It hasn't been started in about three years. However, the last time it ran it ran perfectly and performed just as it should. However, due to some external factors it was the last time it was started until now. This is what we've done so far since starting to work on it:

- Replaced battery
- New plugs (properly gapped), dist. cap, rotor, points (properly gapped), cables, and coil
- New starter, and recently the solenoid
- Carb rebuilt

The tractor is getting spark, and plugs are wet after cranking a few times with no luck. I'm wondering what else could be the issue? The brand new battery is drained after trying to crank it only a few times. Voltage regulator? Improper ground cable? Resistor? The dist. cap is getting juice, as is the coil, but from what I can gather from some research maybe just not enough power is getting where it needs to be?

The frustration is real here, and my family and I are really wanting to get this old girl working again. I know these tractors can be extremely finicky..

Any advice or direction would be extremely appreciated.

 

[HCooke]

Well, recharge the battery. Resistors? there should not be any! Check compression. Jump directly to starter with 12 volt battery (MAKE SURE TRANS IS IN NEUTRAL).

 

[trouttman]

(quoted from post at 16:28:49 09/04/21) I'm hoping I can get some good advice/direction here. I've been pouring through discussions and Googling over and over but I finally decided to post.

My family and I are currently trying to restore/repair my Grandfather's '52 8N, side mount distributor, 6V system. He's been passed since 2017 and I know it had sat for some time prior to that. Unfortunately the knowledge of what has, and hasn't been done, passed with him.

Currently, the tractor is refusing to turn over. It's also cranking extremely hard/slow. We have gotten it running only three other times in the past but it was a fight each time. It hasn't been started in about three years. However, the last time it ran it ran perfectly and performed just as it should. However, due to some external factors it was the last time it was started until now. This is what we've done so far since starting to work on it:

- Replaced battery
- New plugs (properly gapped), dist. cap, rotor, points (properly gapped), cables, and coil
- New starter, and recently the solenoid
- Carb rebuilt

The tractor is getting spark, and plugs are wet after cranking a few times with no luck. I'm wondering what else could be the issue? The brand new battery is drained after trying to crank it only a few times. Voltage regulator? Improper ground cable? Resistor? The dist. cap is getting juice, as is the coil, but from what I can gather from some research maybe just not enough power is getting where it needs to be?

The frustration is real here, and my family and I are really wanting to get this old girl working again. I know these tractors can be extremely finicky..

Any advice or direction would be extremely appreciated.

How can it rufuesto turnover but crank extremely hard/slow?

 

[RM-MN]

The tractor is getting spark, and plugs are wet after cranking a few times with no luck.

That sentence suggests that while you may have spark jumping the plug gap in open air it may not be doing so when under compression. Get yourself a spark gap tester. Make sure the spark will jump at least 1/4 and be a bright blue/white in color. If it won't jump 1/4 you have found the problem.

Next possible problem is timing. A super good spark is wasted if it happens in the wrong part of the rotation. Pull the #1 spark plug and rotate the engine until you can feel air coming out of that spark plug hole. Now watch for the timing marks on the flywheel and make sure the distributor has the rotor pointing to the #1 plug. Finally, turn the engine until the 6 degree BTC is lined up with the pointer and turn the distributor (with ignition switch on) until the # spark plug has the spark jump.
Spark gap tester

 

[jmiller0580]

We did confirm that the firing order was correct when we replaced the cap/cables according to the original manual my Grandpa had. We did use an inline spark tester to verify each plug was getting a spark. Thanks for the tip I'll pick up a gap tester and check that as well.

What would be the issue causing the spark to not jump the gap? Pardon my ignorance, trying to learn as we go!

It's becoming clearer this is an electrical issue.. however, I'm curious as to why it doesn't seem like the starter bendix is spinning the flywheel as fast as it should be in order to really turn over the engine? I only say this based on how some other 8Ns I've seen started on various YouTube videos.. It sounds like its barely turning

 

[RogerinIowa]

Pull it in 4th gear.

 

[Smokeonthewater]

I suspect that some other 8n's you have heard in said videos have been converted to 12 volts

 

[Smokeonthewater]

By the way, you have used the term turning over in different posts to describe both cranking and firing/running. In the interest of clarity let's just stop using the term turning over which really doesn't mean anything. Stick with cranking and firing or running instead.

This post was edited by Smokeonthewater on 09/04/2021 at 08:04 pm.

 

[RM-MN]

The usual cause of a spark being too weak to jump the larger gap of a spark gap tester is the condition of the ignition points not making a good contact. A new set of points may have a coating of oil and all it may take is putting a piece from a brown paper bag between them and pulling it back and forth so the brown paper absorbs the oil.

 

[Bruce (VA)]

What would be the issue causing the spark to not jump the gap?


There are a number of reasons for a weak spark. In no particular order, and probably not all inclusive:

1. Using the wrong resistor (in your case, if it is a true 12v coil, no resistor should be used - tip # 30)

2. Dirty/bad/fouled/wrong plugs. (check out tip # 7)

3. Carbon core (automotive) plug wires (tip # 27)

4. Incorrect point gap (.025) or worn points

5. Incorrect plug gap (.025)

6. Worn rotor and/or cap.

7. Worn out ignition switch putting resistance in the circuit

8. Weak battery

9. Bad grounds/connections in the ignition circuit.

10. Rarely, a bad coil. In your case, you have a side coil, so a bad coil would be very rare.

To confirm that you have a weak spark, get an old plug, open the gap to 1/4, ground it to a rust & paint free spot on the engine, turn the key on & crank the
engine. If the spark jumps the gap, you probably dont have a spark problem. If it wont jump the gap, you have a spark problem.


Start by checking battery voltage at both the battery and across the open points. Should b 12.65 volts.
75 Tips

 

[Tim PloughNman Daley]

The first order of business should be to obtain the ESSENTIAL MANUALS, forget about Gaggle or U-TOOB, and read your manuals. You can get advice everywhere including
here but know some is right and some is wrong. The next step is to NOT start buying new parts and replacing until old are tested and proven to be defective. Rebuilding
the OEM components is always the best route to go as new stuff is mostly Cheena made junk. You should have left the CARB and DIST alone for now. You introduced yet more
unknowns into the equation without proper root cause problem solving first. There is a procedure for starting a tractor that has been setting for while. Gas can be
drained and refreshed with new. Oil checked and if dirty plan on an oil change but not now. You can do that once the tractor gets up and running. Forget trying to
crank. Assuming engine isn't froze, turn by hand crank to test. Get your VOM test and the battery. If weak or dead yank it and take to a trusty local starter/ALT shop
to be tested on their machine. If bad, replace with a new quality brand, no WallyWorld or TSC specials. Don't connect cables yet. You will want to test other things
first. Leave DIST and CARB alone. Now, just because your battery is 6V DOES NOT mean your system is wired correctly for the 6V/POS GRN setup. Your local ALT shop can
also test your starter motor and your GEN ad VR as well. You will ver9fy ALL wiring is correct before even thinking of connecting a battery to try and start. Keeping
grandpa's 8N in teh family and restoring it is an honorable thing to do. However, without a log on what PM was done, the best thing is to do some basic checks and
balances before running so as you don't destroy something because you don't know. Take your battery, GEN, Starter Motor, VR, and AMMETER to your trusty local shop for
testing. While he's doing that go thru the ENTIRE WIRING system using a correct schematic or diagram. Don't go by wiring colors, colors don't conduct electrons. If
wires are torn and frayed, brittle, and/or all taped up consider a new harness. If your BAT, GEN, STARTER MOTOR, and VR test bad and need rebuilding, you might want to
consider going to a 12V system. You would need a new 12V GRP 35 battery, a 1-Wire Delco ALT with a belt tensioning device, and a 12V coil. You eliminate the GEN and VR
altogether an 6V coil is replaced with a 12V coil. 12V will get you faster, stronger starts, brighter lights, and the option to install an 8-Track Player. If you do go
to 12V know that you will need to replace the 6V lamps with 12V lamps. Get The ESSENTIAL MANUALS and read religiously. OEM Owner/Operator's Manual, CLYMER/I&T FO-4
Manual, and FORD '39-'53 MPC are required to start with. If going to 12V download a Wiring Pictogram by JMOR.


FORD 600/800 ESSENTIAL OWNER/OPERATOR/PARTS/SERVICE MANUALS:

Tim Daley(MI)

 

[Barry OH]

RECHECK WIREING ON DIST TO PLUGS ------ DIST TURNS COUNTER CLOCK WISE----- CHECK TIMEING

 

[Jim L WA]

You say you put new battery cables on? Were they the single 0 or double 00 Gage? The small diameter used with 12 volt systems won't carry the current needed in a 6 volt system
Also, where did you attach the ground cable to? If it's connected to a bolt on the steering column, it may be loosing current flow because of old dirty connections to the bell housing and engine. Another thing is to remove the starter and wire brush the mounting area for the starter.
By the way, you did buy a 6 volt starter for it, right?

 

[Tim PloughNman Daley]

OOOPPPSSS - wrong info. I posted the later Hundred Series info, not the late 8N stuff.

TPD

 

[jmiller0580]

So thanks to everyone for chiming in with some tips! It's been very helpful and given some direction.

To update:

- Yesterday I did pick up a gap tester from auto parts store. It seems rather fool proof to use and set at 1/4 I did not see any spark at all. However, when I put the inline tester back on, it did light up. So, I am getting spark, but clearly a weak one..

- Battery is brand new as of just this passed Saturday. I had it on a charger overnight from the day before as it already ran down from multiple failed attempts to start.
- I rechecked the wiring. It all looks relatively newer as if someone had replaced the wiring harness at some point in its life. Whether my Grandpa did this I will never know for sure. Nothing frayed or broken.
- Used a multimeter to take readings at the ignition switch, coil, and distributor cap and they all showed 6.5V with just the key switched on. I did not, however, check across the points and will do that today. They are new, and gapped properly at .025
- Sparkplugs are the brand new AutoLite 437 gapped at .025 as I've seen suggested on this forum and a few others.

More electrical testing today I suppose is on my adgenda..

Can anyone locate the post, site, document that showed what the correct readings for a 6V system should be at each of the different components? I saw it somewhere and now can't find it again. It was posted with the 12V conversion readings and commented to half that for the correct 6V readings.

 

[Eman85]

You replaced battery cables? Are they heavy enough for a 6V system? Is it positive ground?

 

[Pete in Holland MI]

6 volt systems that are not in good shape steal too much juice
for the starter and dont leave much for the ignition system
when cranking.

Try pull starting it in 4th gear. If it fires up easily, your starter
system needs attention, or convert it to 12 volt like many of us
do. It it wont start pulling it around, theres something else
wrong.

 

[jmiller0580]

No I did not replace the battery cables, but, the battery cables HAVE been replaced at some point in its life though. Whether my Grandpa did that or someone else I won't know. He purchased it from the original owner at some point in the late 70's pr early 80's.

They appear to me to be thicker than normal car battery cables, at least the black negative cable going to the starter solenoid. The original ground strap was replaced (again unsure when) with a red battery cable. Unsure of the gauge I'm pretty terrible with being able to tell right away.

Yes, the ground is attached to the frame around the steering column with the original bolt. I did remove the bolt and take a wire brush to that area and the end of the cable to clean it up a bit.

Starter is a 6V starter from Steiner Tractor purchased a few years ago and it did, at that time say mid-Summer 2017, start the tractor as well as in 2018 (the last time it was started and ran).

I've pledged to not let her sit again after getting her running! The biggest issue is that it sits on our family acreage about 2 hours away from my home and I'm only up here every couple of weeks during the Spring/Summer/Fall to be able to work on it and drive it. My parents and brother are here quite a bit more but my parents are also aging and I do intend on teaching my youngest brother how to maintain, and drive it when I'm not here.

Anyways, I digress.. Thanks all for the useful info and hopefully I can also get my Grandpa to throw me a bone here from wherever he is and help get this old girl roaring again.

 

[jmiller0580]

I did not replace them personally, but they had been replaced at some point in its life whether by my Grandpa or the person he bought it from 40+ years ago. I can post photos later this morning when I get over there to it. The tractor was functioning for years with these same cables on it when my Grandparents were alive..

 

[jmiller0580]

(quoted from post at 06:40:25 09/06/21) 6 volt systems that are not in good shape steal too much juice
for the starter and dont leave much for the ignition system
when cranking.

Try pull starting it in 4th gear. If it fires up easily, your starter
system needs attention, or convert it to 12 volt like many of us
do. It it wont start pulling it around, theres something else
wrong.

We have gotten it running by pulling it the very first time when we started to work on it after my Grandpa passed away in 2017. Since then it has been started without pulling it, the last time in 2018 by normal means. We were not able to work on it/use it through 2019 (I got married, had a bad house fire) and in 2020 for obvious reasons and not being up here as much....

I'd consider converting to a 12V system but I want to make sure there's not something else very wrong with it before investing in that. The hydraulic control arm is warped and the three points struggles to raise but we need the old girl to run first before addressing that. I've finally found a replacement arm that's straight as an arrow so anxious to get that installed so we can finally use our blade and brushhog to maintain our property easier.

 

[Jim L WA]

jmiller, you said, "We have gotten it running only three other times in the past but it was a fight each time. It hasn't been started in about three years. However, the last time it ran it ran perfectly and performed just as it should......"
I suspect that red ground cable that you're not sure of the diameter. Here is a simple test you can do when you next get to where it is. Take a pair of jumper cables with you and hook BOTH of them from the battery ground terminal right to the starter. Try to start it. It's like the others have said. You are loosing current flow somewhere and the starter motor is demanding so much that there isn't enough left for a strong enough spark.

 

[docmirror]

There's a lot of sharp people here, so I would take each of their bits of info to heart.

Otto cycle engines need 3 things to run, and the 8N is not known as a 'finicky' Ford engine. If you want finicky, try a mid 60s Lamborghini V12 with six dual throat Webers, and a dual race dist with 4 sets of points.

Stoich fuel air ratio
Properly timed spark
Min compression

So far, you've been working on 2 of the three. I would borrow or buy a compression tester. You will also need a 90deg adapter to check the compression. These are low compression engines, so don't get discouraged if the readings are all less than 100. But, they can't be down around 30 either. Remove all plugs, use the angle adapter screw into each plug hole in sequence. Open throttle fully, and crank for 10 seconds. 90PSI is about min, but some can be lower.

If you are getting wet plugs, you may have too much fuel. Turn off the fuel petcock, remove the rubber intake hose. Open throttle 1/2, no choke. Buy a large can of cheap carb cleaner, and spritz it right into the intake while cranking engine. Strange as it may seem, the spray from a pressurized can of carb cleaner will be just about the right stoich ratio for the amount of air drawn in. Don't overdo it. If it starts and runs briefly, you have good spark, and compression, and need to examine the fuel delivery.

If it doesn't start and run, you have an ignition problem. You've replaced a lot of parts already, so I would start with timing. Remove the front plug, and bump the starter over with your thumb covering the plug hole and wait until the compression stroke. Then move it by hand up to top dead center. Remove the dist cap. The rotor should be pointing very near the ign wire to cyl 1.

If not, start over with the timing check. If it is, you'll need to investigate the quality of the spark as noted above. Order is 1,4,3,2. Bump the starter with the dist off, and note the direction of rotation. It should go in sequence to cyl 4, then 3, then 2, and back to 1.

Get back to us after this is done.

 

[dirtymike]

1952 8N side mount. I do beleive the rotation is CCW

 

[dirtymike]

I;m in the middle of starting my fathers 1952 8N, been sitting since 2015. Anxious to se what problems you run into so i can learn what not to do, i make enough mistake on my own. Thanks for all the information. Mike