8N Valve Adjustment?

Royse

Well-known Member
Hi folks, I just bought a "non-running" 8N as a project. The previous owner said he replaced a valve and then blew the battery up in his face trying to jump it with a car, so he got rid of it. Anyway.......
I pulled the head adjusted the valves by the I&T manual, replaced the head gasket and tried it. It would start with the original 6 volt system, but it would only run about 10 seconds while playing with the choke and it puffed (not backfire, puffs like compression escaping) from the carb.
So I adjusted the valves again and swapped the carb with one of my running tractors to eliminate that as a possibility at all. Now it is about the same, but it will run for 30~60 seconds.
Before I take it back apart and adjust the valves again, could these symptoms be anything else? My gut tells me I should probably re-lap that valve.
Thanks!
 
" Before I take it back apart and adjust the valves again, could these symptoms be anything else? "

In a word.........yes.

One poorly seated valve isn't going to cause that problem.

It is important for you to tell us if your tractor has a 6 volt or 12 volt electrical system & if the distributor is on the front of the engine or on the side. The troubleshooting is different based upon the configuration of your engine.

It takes three things for an engine to run: spark at the right time, compression, & fuel in the right mixture. For the moment, forget about compression & concentrate on narrowing the problem down to spark or fuel. (yea, you will need to check compression, but it clearly starts & runs, so that's not the major problem)

There are three very important tools you always need to have in your N tool box: a 3 inch piece of wire w/ alligator clips on each end, an old spark plug w/ the gap opened to at least 3/16” ( ¼” is better) and a 7/16 box end wrench. (see tip # 50 at the link below) And, you really do need a working ammeter on the tractor; it is a very important diagnostic tool. With these tools, you can quickly narrow down most N problems to spark or fuel.

As soon as it stops, check quickly for fuel then spark. When I say quickly, I mean get off the seat, grab the tools & do it right then. Do not wait a minute or two. First, check for fuel. Get a can & put it under the carb. Remove the bolt in the bottom of the carb; as long as the fuel is turned on, you should see gas flowing out of the carb. Let it run for at least 30 seconds. If it’s a dribble, or runs for 5 seconds & stops, or none at all, you have solved half the problem: it’s fuel related. If gas flows well out of the carb & only stops when you turn it off at the sediment bowl, chances are very good it’s not a fuel problem. So, next, turn the key on, crank the engine & look at the ammeter. What is the needle doing? Does it show a constant discharge, no movement at all, or does it move back & forth slightly? Next, get the old plug, ground it to a rust & paint free spot on the engine, turn the key on & crank the engine. If the spark jumps the 3/16” gap, you probably don’t have a spark problem. If it won’t jump the 3/16” gap, you have a spark problem. If the ammeter needle shows a constant discharge, or doesn’t move at all, that also tells you that you have a spark problem. Jump the ignition switch w/ your jumper wire & see what happens. If it runs, you found the problem. If it doesn’t have spark after you jump the ignition switch, post back for more info on further troubleshooting. (and do not forget to turn the ignition switch off; see tip # 38)

If it does not have gas coming out of the carb at a steady stream w/ the bolt out for at least 30 seconds, you have a fuel problem. First, remove the gas cap. Your vent could be clogged & it vacuum locked. If that doesn’t work, tap the carb bowl w/ a hammer handle in case the float is sticking closed. (don’t whack it w/ the head of the hammer; you can crack the bowl). If you still don’t see gas flowing, the N has three fuel screens; one in the brass elbow, one in the top of the sediment bowl & one on the stem of the sediment bowl in the gas tank. Check the screen in the elbow & the screen in the top of the sediment bowl. (don’t worry about the one in the tank) Both probably need to be cleaned. If you have the fuel knob turned on all the way, & 1 gallon or less in the tank, it may be trying to feed off of the reserve inlet which is probably clogged. Only open it 2 full turns. Put at least 2 gallons in the tank. (and do not forget to turn the gas off; see tip # 9)

There are ways to check for spark & fuel that work & ways that don't. For example, having gas to the carb is nice, but having it past the float is what counts! That’s why removing the 7/16” bolt in the bottom of the carb is the way to check for fuel. And, same thing w/ spark at the plugs. Some folks think that checking for spark means pulling a plug wire off & looking for one. Well, it's the distance the spark jumps at the plug that gives you the info you want. It takes about 17kv to jump a 3/16" gap & 22kv to jump ¼” in the open air. Remember, it’s 14psi outside of the engine & about 90psi at a 6:1 compression ratio in the cylinders & compressed air creates electrical resistance, so you really need the 17-22kv to fire the plugs when the engine is running. A store bought plug checker will work better than an old plug because it won’t shock the snot out of you like an old plug might!
50 Tips
 
Royse,Do a compression check on all 4 cylinders,dry then add a tablespoon of motor oil test again then post back your numbers tomorrow.That will tell you if the valves are leaking or not.
 
Thanks for the info guys! It is a front mount distributor, and has the original 6 volt system. The only modification to the original wiring is that someone replaced the key switch with a toggle switch. (I was amazed that was it!)
I've replaced the carb, but I will definitely check the fuel flow to it as you suggest. The tank came with the tractor, so I cleaned the sediment bowl and that screen just because.
I've got a new distributor cap around here too, so I'll check the spark and maybe replace points and cap if needed. Wires and plugs are new.
I'll let you know how it works out!
Thanks again!
 
Yes, pls do follow up & let us know what the problem was.

" The only modification to the original wiring is that someone replaced the key switch with a toggle switch. "

That really should be your next project. A toggle switch is waaaaay to easy to be left on or turned on accidentally. Then, you get to replace the coil & points. (tip # 38)
50 Tips
 
I spent the better part of 2 hours cleaning several decades of grease off the front of the engine tonight, so I didn't get everything done that I wanted to, but here's what I did and where I'm at.

Did the gas flow test, got about a pint out of the bottom of the carb in 50 seconds, so I think that's Ok. Sediment bowl remained full.

The timing was too far advanced, it chugged when it tried to roll over. So I figured in for a penny, in for a pound. After I got the front cleaned I took off the distributor and put it on the bench and cleaned it.

Then I cleaned it some more. Then again. You get the idea. I installed a new set of points and condenser, set the gap, cleaned and dressed the new points. Set the timing per the manual, which confirmed it was too far advanced.

Put it all back together and it fired up. After being cold blooded for a bit, it would idle on its own and I could idle it up and down but it runs pretty rough at all speeds. Maybe from just not being ran, not sure. It is running on the carb off my 9N which runs fine with it on there. I haven't touched the adjustments.

It has a pretty bad exhaust leak at the manifold, almost sounds like a backfire, but I'm thinking its probably because I've had the manifold off to re-adjust the valves after replacing the gaskets, even though it never got warm between. It doesn't seem to be puffing through the carb anymore.

I'll put a new set of manifold gaskets on it, check the compression and play with it a little more to see how it works out. It at least rolls over nicely and fires up very quickly for a 6 volt system!

The key switch was ordered Sunday, so it should be here soon. Hopefully I'm getting close.

Thanks for all your help!
 
After being cold blooded for a bit, it would idle on its own and I could idle it up and down but it runs pretty rough at all speeds.

What Elmer said - Just to be sure, go back and recheck your firing order. It's 1-2-4-3 with number one being toward the radiator.
 
Sounds good! Tnx for the follow-up.

" I'll put a new set of manifold gaskets on it, "

Make sure to check the block & manifold for erosion. Post back if you find any. Use Copper Coat on the gasket.
50 Tips
 
Ok, put the manifold gaskets on it yesterday, block and manifold looked good, and didn't take much cleaning since I just cleaned them a week ago. Let them set 24 hours to cure/dry.

Got the new key switch in today, so I installed that too.

Fires right up, doesn't knock or rattle at all and runs pretty smooth, but it has a backfire through the exhaust. Seems like once per revolution.

I'm headed out to do the compression test after dinner and will let you know what I find. I'm back to suspecting that exhaust valve they replaced.

Oh yeah, it smokes pretty bad too. Blue smoke. :(
 
Dug my compression tester out from under the dust, I'm a little suspicious of the test results because it hasn't been used in a while.

Anyway, all 4 cylinders pumped up to 90 psi +/- 2 psi while cranking, but then drained off to near zero within 10 seconds or so.

I added a little oil to do a wet test and the first time I checked them I got this:
#1 90 psi
#2 150
#3 120
#4 120
Each one took longer to drain, but all drained in about a minute or less.

So I let them sit a few and did it again without adding more oil. This time they all came out at about 120 and didn't drain off nearly as quickly, 3 to 5 minutes.

Did the wet test for a third time with the same results as the second.

Thoughts? Rings come to mind with it smoking so badly, but I was really suprised they were that close together. Especially with the backfire. Maybe I'm just stuck on that valve.
 
90 PSI is the Ford minimum specs.

Providing it is adjusted properly, a 90 PSI both wet/dry on the number one cylinder indicates a burned or stuck exhaust valve.

Improvement on the other cylinder readings point to worn/stuck rings - Smoke is likely due to the oil used in the wet compression test (or stuck rings) and may clear up after running it for a while. I'd concentrate on the valve problem then dose it with ATF and run it for a while to see if it loosens up.

Is the backfire (loud explosion out of the exhaust) really a backfire or a misfire? I'm thinking the latter which would point to the previously mentioned valve sealing problem.

I'd try cleaning the valve first and then recheck your compression readings - If still low, may need to pull the head and seat the valve.
 
I'm sure you guys will recognise this valve "suppoosed-to-seal".
I pulled the head back off, my nephew and I lapped the valve in and replaced this seal. No more pop/misfire/backfire through the exhaust.
That's the good news.
From the smoke and the oil pressure (35 at about 1/3 throttle when cold, 15 at the same spot when warm, I think a rebuild is in order)
It was bought as a project after all......
Thank you all for your help. Now that I know it seems to be worthy of a "project" I'll proceed.
It doesn't knock or rattle, so that makes me think it doesn't need major crank work, just a run through the shop for a check. (hopefully) A new set of bearings and rings. Maybe sleeves, but they look really clean. Not even a ridge on top. Thoughts on that?
a65415.jpg
 
Oil pressure don't scare me none - It'll run a long, long time with those numbers.

Again, I'd dose it with ATF and run the dog wee out of it before tearing into it - Could just be sticky oil control rings that's allowing the skeeter fogging demonstration.

Pull the plugs and put 4 ozs in each cylinder - Let is sit for a week if possible or as long as you can then spin it over with the plugs still out to flush the cylinders. Mix ATF in your gas at the rate of 8 ozs per gallon. Change the oil and substitute 1/2 quart of ATF for one of the quarts of oil. Hook it to a turning plow or bush hog and run it hard for 2-3 hours.

The gas and ATF blend will cause it to smoke so make sure you have straight gas in it before evaluating it's smoking habit. If she's still puffing after the above work out then by all means go for the rebuild.
 
[i:0c5074cc46]"...the oil pressure (35 at about 1/3 throttle when cold, 15 at the same spot when warm"[/i:0c5074cc46]

Royse, I'm no mekanik, but I think the proper throtle setting to check your oil pressure is at 1500 RPM or about 2/3 throttle. If this is correct, your pressure may not be too bad as it should drop with the reduction in engine speed.

Also, what weight oil are you using? I ran straight 30 weight for years until it got hard to find, then switched to 10W30. My pressure dropped during the summer (I'm in south central VA). Then I switched to Shell Rotella T 15W40 and have had no problems so far.

Check your pressur at ~2/3 throttle.

John
 
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