9N/8N Starting problems continued

[Lurch]

I had to resurrect the details from this post because by the time I answered, it was on page 3.

Anyway the tractor has been out of commission for about almost 3 months.

Here is the latest info.
New starter returned to TSC after checked at starter shop.

Old starter has been rebuilt at a starter shop. The 2nd new coil installed. The 2nd new ammeter from TSC installed ammeter looked fine on shelf, after handling it it reads + about 3 amps (I give up)
Re-wired the ammeter according to a picture diagram from this forum.


It would fire but not start.

Spark: used old plug grounded to head on driver's side, saw consistent yellow spark as best i could tell, unitl small explosion occured at oil-filler tube and ball of flames continued like the Statue of liberty.
Won't be doing that again any time soon.

I swear now when i try to turn it over, the oil in the air cleaner begins leaking out of the sides or bottom of the cup.

I disconnected the air cleaner and just attempted to start it, by jumping starter. It ran maybe a minute and died at the same time oil or something was spraying out of the filler tube all over me.
Drained the oil pan and sure looks and feels like gas and oil to me. I have no sense of smell so i can't tell for sure.




I live in Central Pa, miles from anything, so my last resort will be to rent a trailer and haul this thing 40 miles away to a Ford dealer.



Info from initial post:



After overhauling the 8N engine, it eventually has starting problems.
It has a new battery, generator, cut-off, resistor, coil **, ampmeter.

It appeared that the battery wasn't charging.

Battery after several starts, is at about 6.2 volts all of the time. Starter is not able to turn over. I had an auto store charge battery back up to 7.2 volts and it would initially start the tractor ok.

Now,engine can only be started with jump to starter with 12v battery. then appears to run ok **


Ampmeter, while still in store box pegged at -5 amps. Immediatley after starting the ampmeter still pegs at -5 amps. So esentially "0"


The starter, even when jumped with 12v battery, many times, turns breifly and then sounds like it's disengaging with a high pitched spinning sound.


So is 6.2 normally enough to turn that starter?

Does it sound like the starter is shot?

Is the ampmeter reading the way it should.

** meantime, with the new coil in and running, the tractor stopped on it's own and i may have forgotten to get to it and shut the key off.


Subsequent details


It's front mount distributor.
I base the battery not appearing to be charging on the ammeter, which fluctuates around -5 amps

I have a multi-tester available, but i just plain don't know how to tes if it's being charged.

When I say "essentially 0" about the ammeter i mean that since it is centered at -5 amps and fluctuates around -5 amps when running there is "0" or no difference.

Surfaces were already cleaned around starter.

Ammeter is from TSC and i'll be returning it.

When I say "essentially 0" about the ammeter i mean that since it is centered at -5 amps and fluctuates around -5 amps when running there is "0" or no difference.


When turning key on ammeter does not move.

Cut-off is wired with wire from generator going to terminal NOT marked "Bat". Wire from Bat terminal on cut-off, goes to post on ammeter nearest ignition switch.

Earlier todsy, got tractor started and ran fine for at least 1 1/2 hours before I shut it off to do some other things.


Since i made the post this morning, i went to TSC and bought a brand new starter. Just put it in.

Turn the key on, ammeter stays at -5 amps.


Hit the starer switch, ammeter swings over to about 5+ amps, But absolutely nothing. No sound no cranking, nothing.
Is there some part or retainers or something that has to be removed from the starter before installing it?

Hope i covered everything.



Carb has been re-built.

New distributor cap

Removed and cleaned up points

Remanuf 6v gen

New Gen cut-off


Cleaned tightened ALL wire/ground connections

new ignition switch

 

[Jerry/MT]

Sounds like you have a lot of issues. I'll try to address a few of them.

First of all a yellow spark is a poor spark. It should be FAT AND BLUISH-WHITE.Did you set the points properly? If you have a 6 volt battery and generator system, your positive battery terminal should be grounded. Are the primary circuit wires and terminals connected and clean and tight? Does the resistor in series with the primary circuit wire ave continuity?
Your primary ignition circuit should draw about 4 amps and if the points are closed when you turn on the key, your ammeter should show ~ -4 amps. If the points are open the ammeter should show nothing.
When you hit the starter button you should show a large negative amps because the starter current is going out of the battery. Once it starts and you have some rpms above idle, you should see positive amps as the gennerator charges the battery. As the battery charges the amps should go to near zero+.

Make sure that your starter switch is properly hooked upI believe that it is just a single pole switch with a wire from the battery and another to the starter.(I don't have an N series Ford so i'm not familiar with all the deatils.)

A starter should come ready to install. Is the starter drive good?

 

[Colin King]

I'm guessing your mini-explosion was from the gas that flooded your sparkplugs, drained into your crankcase, and started evaporating through the filler tube.

I didn't look up the previous thread, so maybe this has already been answered...
Did you replace your spark plugs? Use autolite AL 437 gapped to 0.025". You've undoubtedly flooded your plugs, which reduces their effectiveness.

Colin, MN

 

[Lurch]

I will get the Autolite 437's.
The ones in use are Champion H10c and look reasonably new.

Points were set correctly

Battery has brand new bare metal ground strap to positive post. All Wire connections brushed,shiny, tight.

The ammeter is only in 5 amp increments, but when i turned on the key, just now needle didn't move. When hitting starter switch needle swings right to positive 5 amps


Starter was rebuilt, ready to install and i installed it. Appears to be working ok.

Engine now will turn over and sputter, but will not start or run for more than a few seconds and die.

Since re-wiring the ammeter, i have not been able to get the engine running long enough to see if battery is charging.

Just cchecked new resistor and has good continuity.

 

[Lurch]

Also forgot to mention that i took the plugs out, heated them with a small propane torch to dry them out, re-installed, but engine still only sputtered a little and no starting.

 

[Colin King]

Reverse the wires on the ammeter. That should cure your readings.

The AL 437s are recommended for unleaded gas because they burn hotter than the H10s. You can't actually see the "deposits" that are left behind on flooded plugs, but from reading this board folks swear flooding can turn a good plug into a bad one. So far I haven't had the good fortune to test this theory.

Keep the plugs ... when you do get your engine going, you can swap them in one at a time to burn off the deposits. Then you'll have a spare set.

I was wondering about your ammeter reading. When you say that you have a +/-3 reading, is that with the ignition switch on or off? If it is off, what happens when you unhook the battery? Do you get a zero reading?

Colin

 

[Lurch]

The ammeter was centered when i bought it, although others on the shelf were not. But just handling it, i noticed the needle wasn't quite centered. So just took a closer look and it looks like it is about + 1 amp or one needle width to the right of center and disconnecting battery doesn't change anything.

 

[Lurch]

Forgot to mention ammeter reading is with ignition switch on, off and / or battery disconnected.

 

[Colin King]

Okay. I don't think you need to worry too much about that, then. My needle isn't exactly on the dot either. But I believe that you do have your wires reversed. Once you switch them around, you should get a more expected reading ;-)

Colin

 

[Lurch]

Just installed the AL437 spark plugs and it started up immediately and continued running well. But i soon had to turn it off because it now has "0" oil pressure. Cracked the line at the base of the oil pressure guage and nothing comes out. I may make a separate post about that after searching the archives.

 

[souNdguy]

This isn't a front mount is it?

I saw a reference to gen gut out.. and only the frontmount 2n's and 9n's had those. An 8n will have a vreg...

in any case.. if you have a front mount.. pointsgap is .015

soundugy

 

[Jerry/MT]

How well are your points set? You gotta' get a FAT, BLUISH-WHITE SPARK.
It sounds like your ammeter may be hooked up backwards. Switch the wires around.

 

[Lurch]

It's a 9N tractor with an 8N engine, but has front mount and gen cut-out. No other Vregulator though.

 

[souNdguy]

If it uses the 3 brush genny from the 9n then it is ok with the cutout.. however if they used the 2 brush 8n genny.. it needs a vr.

Also.. dotto on the points... front mount points are set at .015.. etc..

soundguy

 

[Lurch]

All I had to do was remove the pressure relief valve screw, squirt about a cup of oil in and started the engine. Oil pressure is up to 25 or so.

 

[Colin King]

Way to go - and congratulations on getting your no start plus your oil pressure problem fixed! Thanks for posting back and letting us know.

Were you able to verify the type of generator you have, as Soundguy suggested? You if you are not running the correct set-up, you will shorten the life of your ignition components.

Colin, MN

 

[Rusty Keller]

I have two 9n's. One trick I learned is to make a jumper wire long enough to hook one end on the top of the coil (mine have the front mount coil), and run the wire to the battey. Hook the other end to you power terminal. One of my 9n's is a 6volt, so I hook the jumper to the negative since it's positive ground. The other 9n is a 12volt, so I hook the jumper to the positive pole since it's negative ground. This bypass' everything in the start circuit. Try to start it. If it does, and runs, pull the jumper of the battery to stop the engine, and you know it's the key switch, or the the little block thing on the front side of the instrument panel (sorry, I can't for the life of me think right now what that thing is called). Good Luck. Rusty.