9n not firing

Hi folks and thanks in advance for any help.

I just recently bought a 1940 9n that is not running and in very good shape. Anyway, the PO said that "something" was happening with the points and the carb, he parked it and never used it again. I bring it home and clean the carb out (lots of bugs in it because of lack of air filter) and start tinkering with the lack of spark. So, I notice that there is indeed fire at the condenser, but not the points. Then, I go and buy new plugs, wires, points and condenser and install everything. Now, I get an occasional spark at the points and that's it.

Have I installed the points housing wrong? Is there a certain way to align it to the end of the crankshaft? I know there is a groove at the end of the crank that mounts up to the points housing, but not sure if the alignment is correct.

Another thing I was wanting to do is check the timing. Can anyone tell me the best way to check the timing (finding TDC, etc)?

I appreciate any help.

Thanks,
Luap McKeever
 

IGNITION ON THE FRONT MOUNTED DISTRIBUTOR.

If you think it may be electrical you should start with the ignition switch and go all the way through the distributor and coil one thing at the time.

You can isolate the ignition switch by using a sewing pin to pierce through the two leads going to the ignition switch. Be careful not to let the pin make contact with anything metal while doing this. If this makes the trouble go away, replace the switch.

Next is the ignition resistor. Do not try to bypass the resistor. To do so may fry the coil and points etc and just make more trouble. If you find that the ignition resistor has been bypassed then you can assume that the coil is shot. If you have a volt meter connect it at the little post on the coil and turn the engine until the points are closed and take a reading. It should read somewhere in the neighborhood of 3 or 4 volts. If it only reads 2 or less you should replace the resistor. Never bypass the resistor!
If you don’t have a volt meter, you can also take the wire off the coil post where the current enters from the resistor and strike the wire on something metal on the tractor and observe the spark. It should be easily seen.

There is an insulator on the distributor plate where the condenser wire and the points spring are attached. It looks like a small piece of cardboard. This insulator is sometimes the culprit if it allows the current to go to ground because it is shorted to ground. Be especially careful to inspect this insulator for grounding.

You could have a bad set of ignition points in the distributor and the only way to find out is to remove the distributor from the engine by removing the distributor cap and the wire coming to the coil from the resistor and then removing the two mounting bolts. If the points are not correctly set to the right opening measurement this could be the trouble. Especially if they are just barely opening. Set the points to .015.

If the points are pitted or corroded at all replace them. If it has been a long time since the points have been replaced then replace them. Have a set on hand before you remove the distributor from the engine. Also replace the condenser. The condenser is not as likely as the points to be bad but now is the time to replace it.

If after testing everything and replacing the points and condenser you still have the same problem it may be that the coil is breaking down when it heats up. The only way to fix this is to replace the coil.

Zane
 
The front distributor was designed to come off of the tractor to replace/adjust the points. Remove the wire on the coil, remove the coil bail, remove the distributor cap & take the two bolts off. The base of the distributor has an offset tang & can only go back one way unless you really force it on.

6v or 12v? It could make a difference in troubleshooting.

Assuming that the points, condenser, bushings & advance weights are ok, the most common electrical failure (no spark, weak spark) points on the frontmount are:

1 The insulator under the concave head screw.

2 The insulator at the end of the points where the copper strip attaches.

3 The copper strip grounded to the plate.

4 The condenser wire grounding.

5 The pigtail/tab not making contact.

6 Incorrect positioning of the spring clip on the plate causing the pigtail to ground.

7 Incorrect seating of the coil on the distributor.

I’ll assume that if you have a 50+ year old tractor that you have a test meter.

First, confirm that you do indeed have a spark problem. Get the old plug & open the gap to 3/16”. Then, ground it to a rust & paint free spot on the engine, turn the key on & crank the engine. If the spark jumps the 3/16” gap, you probably don’t have a spark problem. If it won’t jump the 3/16” gap, you have a spark problem. There are ways to check for spark that work & ways that don't. Some folks think that checking for spark means pulling a plug wire off & looking for one. Well, it's the distance the spark jumps at the plug that gives you the info you want. It takes about 17kv to jump a 3/16" gap, so that's why you need to use a spark plug. Or, a store bought plug checker. There are other good ways to check for spark, but this ways work for me.

Next, turn the key on & crank the engine while you look at the ammeter. What is it doing? If it fluctuates, that means your points are opening & closing. If it shows a constant discharge, or doesn’t move at all, that means you need to do some more checking.

Next, check for voltage at the top of the coil. Battery voltage w/ the points open & about half of that when they are closed. If you do not have voltage to the coil, then move upstream to the resistor then to the ignition switch. As you check each component, wiggle it & the wires attached to it & watch you meter. Resistors break or get shorted & wires corrode.

If the voltage never drops when the engine is cranking, that means the points are not closing or you have lost contact between the pigtail & the brass screw or the tab & the cap.

Next, check for continuity inside the distributor w/ a meter. It is very easy to ground the tip of the condenser wire to the body of the distributor when you replaced the points. Also, make sure the condenser wire does not go through the same opening in the distributor that the coil pig tail does. The condenser wire goes the opening on the top right. Look at the points; are they burned, pitted or mis-aligned? Check the point gap, .015 on all four lobes. Make sure you have the star washers under the screws on the points.

Next, with the distributor still off the tractor, install the coil. Look at the pigtail on the coil; is it touching the brass screw w/ the concave head inside of the distributor? Don’t trust your eyes; test for continuity from the top of the coil to the points. If you do not have continuity, stretch the pigtail a bit until you do. (some people would rather put a small washer under the brass screw) Make sure that the pigtail is not grounded to the clip that holds the distributor plate in place; sometimes you can move the plate while setting the timing & actually ground the pigtail. Your meter should tell you this even if your eyes don’t! Also, look at the little tab opposite of the pigtail; bend it a bit also to insure that it will contact the distributor cap. Another common failure point is the insulator in the tab on the distributor plate where the brass screw w/ the concave head goes; it holds the copper strip from the points. Again, your meter will usually tell you if you have a problem, but you might have to wiggle the copper strip a bit. Once you are sure that you have good continuity inside the distributor, you should be good to go.

At this point, I just put the distributor, coil & cap all back on the tractor as a unit (it’s easier to do this from the left side). The reason I do this is because it is real easy to get the cap or coil mis-aligned trying to put it back together one piece at a time & the result is something gets broken or you get a ‘no spark’ problem.

Regarding timing, you do not need to find TDC on #1. You set the timing w/ the distributor off the tractor. Check out this link:


http://my9n.freeservers.com/tff/timing.htm

Regarding points.....the points open on the high point of the cam. The opening should be .015. As a newbie, use the .016 or .017 blade. (close counts) Make sure the blade is at a perfect right angle to the points & you want to feel just the slightest bit of drag when you pull the blade through the points. Make sure the blade is clean & that you dress the new points by running some card stock or a piece of brown paper bag through them.

Lastly, check out tip # 39 at the link below. A complete set of manuals will save you a lot of time & money.
50 Tips
 
Lou......you do know ittza 2-bolt 15-min job to remove the 4-nipple frontmount distributor and set the points (0.015") on the kitchen table, don't you? You also need to gently stretch the springy-thingy so it make certain contact with the hollow headed condenser attach screw. U can NOT re-install outta time without breakin' something Just gently twist the rotor 'till the off-set tang falls into the camshaft slot. Simple, eh?


Timing the frontmount is also weird. its 1/4". Eazily explained by a picture but difficult with words. You have an external timing screw adjust on the left side of the distributor, it is for adjusting for bad gas. The low compression (6:1) engine was designed for 70-octane white gas. Today's cheapest no-lead gas is way better so don't worry about the timing until you gitta picture. HTH.......Dell, yer self-appointed sparkie-meister
 
Bruce,
I believe it has been converted to 12V. at least judging by the amp guage and the "new" look of the electric components.

1 The insulator under the concave head screw.
Not sure what you mean here. The condenser wire is underneath this screw.

2 The insulator at the end of the points where the copper strip attaches.
Not sure here either what you mean.

3 The copper strip grounded to the plate.
The copper strip goes from the points to the post that the condenser wire is hooked to.

4 The condenser wire grounding.

5 The pigtail/tab not making contact.
I stretched it a little and am getting "fire" to the pigtail when the key is on, and it "strobes" when I crank the engine.

6 Incorrect positioning of the spring clip on the plate causing the pigtail to ground.

7 Incorrect seating of the coil on the distributor.
I think this is right. Everything seems to line up and I get power to the coil and the pigtail.

I’ll assume that if you have a 50+ year old tractor that you have a test meter.

I do not get spark to the plugs. Only life I see ends at the coil pigtail that touches the concave screw. I did see a weak and sporatic spark at the points, but it is rare. Maybe somethign is shorted.

Yes, the points are opening and closing. I have them set at .015 TDC of the armeter.
 
Zane,

"You can isolate the ignition switch by using a sewing pin to pierce through the two leads going to the ignition switch. Be careful not to let the pin make contact with anything metal while doing this. If this makes the trouble go away, replace the switch."
The engine turns over and I get fire to the coil pigtail, so do you think I can rule out ignition?

"Next is the ignition resistor. Do not try to bypass the resistor. To do so may fry the coil and points etc and just make more trouble. If you find that the ignition resistor has been bypassed then you can assume that the coil is shot. If you have a volt meter connect it at the little post on the coil and turn the engine until the points are closed and take a reading. It should read somewhere in the neighborhood of 3 or 4 volts. If it only reads 2 or less you should replace the resistor. Never bypass the resistor!
If you don’t have a volt meter, you can also take the wire off the coil post where the current enters from the resistor and strike the wire on something metal on the tractor and observe the spark. It should be easily seen. "

Where is this resistor at?

"There is an insulator on the distributor plate where the condenser wire and the points spring are attached. It looks like a small piece of cardboard. This insulator is sometimes the culprit if it allows the current to go to ground because it is shorted to ground. Be especially careful to inspect this insulator for grounding."

These are brand new points and it appears the insulator is in good shape.

"You could have a bad set of ignition points in the distributor and the only way to find out is to remove the distributor from the engine by removing the distributor cap and the wire coming to the coil from the resistor and then removing the two mounting bolts. If the points are not correctly set to the right opening measurement this could be the trouble. Especially if they are just barely opening. Set the points to .015. "

I just installed these points and set them at .015 on center of lobe.

If the points are pitted or corroded at all replace them. If it has been a long time since the points have been replaced then replace them. Have a set on hand before you remove the distributor from the engine. Also replace the condenser. The condenser is not as likely as the points to be bad but now is the time to replace it.

If after testing everything and replacing the points and condenser you still have the same problem it may be that the coil is breaking down when it heats up. The only way to fix this is to replace the coil.

Maybe I do need a new coil then? It puzzles me, because my light tester shows positive at the coil pigtail that contacts the concave screw.

This one has got me beat. I appreciate any further advice.
 
Yep, I took the whole thing off and replaced everytthing on my bench.

I'll try and post a photo of the setup soon so maybe you all can tell me if it's shorting out or something.
 
"I believe it has been converted to 12V. at least judging by the amp guage and the "new" look of the electric components." Just count the caps on the battery.

"Not sure what you mean here. The condenser wire is underneath this screw." Look again. There is a fiber insulator there.

"I do not get spark to the plugs. " Of course your not getting spark to the plugs; the tractor isn't running. Don't worry about that now.

"I have them set at .015 TDC of the armeter." Huh? Armeter? Do you mean the high point of the cam?

"The engine turns over and I get fire to the coil pigtail, so do you think I can rule out ignition?"
No! You need battery voltage to the points!

"Where is this resistor at?" Follow the wire from the coil; it's on the terminal block.

"Maybe I do need a new coil then? It puzzles me, because my light tester shows positive at the coil pigtail that contacts the concave screw." That just tells you that you have some amount of voltage sufficient to light the bulb. It does not tell you if the coil is good or bad, but don't worry about a coil now.

You have a dire need for the I&T FO4 manual as well as a $15 multi-meter.

You need to do a full continuity check inside the distributor as I suggested earlier.

Follow these steps:

1. Coil off, cap off, points open. One probe on the brass screw & the other on both sides of the open points. On the side closest to the cam, you should have continuity. Not on the other side! If you do, you will also have continuity everywhere because the points are grounded.

2. Coil off, cap off, points open. One probe on the brass screw & the other anywhere on the body of the distributor. You should have no continuity! Now, rotate the tang on the distributor....as the points open & close, you have continuity (closed) and lose it when they open.

3. Coil on, cap off, points open. One probe on the lead on the top of the coil, the other on the cam side of the open points. You should have continuity!

4. Coil on, cap off, points open. One probe on the lead on the top of the coil, the other anywhere on the body of the distributor. You should have no continuity!
50 Tips
 
I just recently had this exact problem with the dist. You said that the insulator looked fine. So did mine till I discovered the screw was not centered in it and the threads of the screw were actually touching the baseplate tang. So the insulator had to be replaced and that got my spark to the points. However, after that was done it didn"t get mine running. After doing those continuity tests a number of times it still ended up being the coil. Sometimes a bad coil will still let the juice flow just not enough to do you any good. Coils are difficult to test without the proper equipment.

Also check screw in the other insulator to ensure it is centered. It don"t take much to ground these things out.

Trace the coil wire back to the Ignition switch. Somewhere by the battery box it ought to plug into a piece of ceramic. This would be the resistor. From the resistor it goes to the ignition switch. Check this wire for grounding and bad or loose ends. good luck
 
Just count the caps on the battery.

A 12v battery has 6 cells & 6 caps. A 6v battery has 3 cells & 3 caps. If it doesn't have a battery in it, look at the generator. If it's a generator, chances are it's 6v. If it has an alternator, chances are it's 12v. But, there are 12v generators & 6v alternators, so the only 100% sure way to tell is measure the voltage output.
50 Tips
 
Thanks, I am finally able to get spark to the points. Only now, when I put the rotor and distributor cap on, there is no fire to the plugs.

Do you think that possibly the rotor and/or distributor cap are bad?

I'm thinking about replacing the coil, distributor cap and rotor.

Thanks,
Luap
 
If it still has the original ignition resistor it is mounted to the right and above the ignition switch and the wireing terminal block is under it.

The fact that the test light comes on at the spring thingy on the bottome of the coil does not mean it is producing high voltage. The wires inside the coil can be shorted against each other and so it still would not produce high voltage at the output tab which connects the distributor cap to the high voltage output.

Zane
 
Did you do the continuity checks as I described?

As I said earlier, you will never have spark to the plugs while bench testing the distributor. The rotor doesn't make contact w/ the cap. It's a hv connection; the current jumps the distance. If you have battery voltage across the points w/ the coil on the distributor & the distributor off the tractor, it should have spark to the plugs when you put it all back on the tractor.

A new rotor & cap wouldn't hurt. At this point, a new coil is probably wasting your money.

Coil problems are difficult to diagnose. For starters, round coils are pretty robust & square coils aren’t, but neither one will hold up to a poorly done 12v conversion that allows too much current to the coil. There are a few ways to see if a coil is bad, but it’s not possible to determine if a coil is good w/o some expensive testing equipment. If you detect a dead short or high resistance in the coil w/ an ohm meter, it’s bad. If it’s cracked, it’s bad. If a sidemount coil w/ battery voltage to the primary will not jump a ¼” gap from the secondary wire to the block, it’s bad. But, here is the hard part: even if you do not detect a short, even if it will produce a spark, even if it’s not cracked, that doesn’t mean the coil will work when it’s hot & under a load. So, it’s a process of elimination. If the tractor starts & runs fine for 30 minutes or an hour then cuts off & refuses to re-start, and you checked for spark at the plugs & it had no spark at all, AND you jumped the resistor (if it has one) that’s a good sign that you have a bad coil. Let it cool off, restart it & if you have a good spark, odds are it’s a bad coil. But, even then, you might end up w/ a spare coil on the shelf!

As to the resistor, p/n 12250 or 12250B (the resistor on the terminal block) it should read .3 ohms cold & 1.7 ohms hot.

Post back w/ results & any other questions.
50 Tips
 
Thanks for the help. I brought it to life last night. Changed the resistor, coil, cap and rotor. I think the problem was actually just the resistor.

Now, I have to search archives, because it wont lift now.
 
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