9n won't fire

TomN

Member
... had a friend of mine replace everything electrical on my 9n this year.... (before I found this blog).....

... she ran good for a few months... but, been hard starting lately... would "turn over and turn over"... but only start "just when I let go of starter".... so, I figured weak spark... (starter taking too much juice)...

... used 8n to charge it.... jump it... spins right over... but no fire...

Hafta pull it to garage from field now with 8n... I popped coil off last night... gasket not sealed right.. all kindsa debris under gasket... Is it possible debris is interfering with the points? Have juice thru coil... but, nothing to plugs... grrr.... guess I will hafta take it apart....
 
Power to the coil is good but does not tell you if the points are opening and closing as they should or if they are dirty and not working as they should. Some say you can watch the amp gauge to see if they are working me I just pop the cap off and reach in and open and close them by hand and when doing it that way you should both see and hear a spark at the points if they are working right. But if your not careful you can also get zapped by the coil but will not really hurt you just make you think your hurt. LOL
 
6v or 12v?

Before you check anything else, make sure you have the correct voltage at the top of the coil. It should be battery voltage w/ the points open & about half that w/ the points closed.



If you do not have the correct voltage at the coil, that’s your problem.



Assuming that the bushings & advance weights are ok, & that you have correct voltage to the coil, the most common electrical failure (no spark, weak spark) points on the frontmount are:

1. The insulator under the brass concave head screw.

2. The insulator at the end of the points where the copper strip attaches.

3. The copper strip is broken or grounded to the plate.

4. The condenser wire grounding.

5. The pigtail/tab not making contact.

6. Incorrect positioning of the spring clip on the plate causing the pigtail to ground.

7. Incorrect seating of the coil on the distributor due to a loose bail or no gasket; the coil must not move at all.

8. Water/moisture inside the cap due to gasket failure or the absence of a gasket.

9. Dirty/corroded/incorrectly gapped points

10. Burned rotor, cracked/carbon tracked cap.



Congratulations.........you found at least one failure point (the gasket)

Keep looking; you might have more!

Unless the coil is cracked or shows a dead short, chances are it's fine; square coils rarely fail cold. Pull the distributor & do a continuity check.

First, make sure your meter/light works (don't ask....)

Next, dress the points by running a piece of card stock or brown paper bag through them. New points sometimes have an anti-corrosive dielectric coating on them & old points can corrode or pick up grease from a dirty feeler gauge or excessive cam lubricant. Then, check the gap at .015 on all 4 lobes.

Now, follow these steps:

1. Coil off, cap off, points open. One probe on the brass screw & the other on both sides of the open points. On the side closest to the cam, you should have continuity. Not on the other side! If you do, you will also have continuity everywhere because the points are grounded.

2. Coil off, cap off, points open. One probe on the brass screw & the other anywhere on the body of the distributor. You should have no continuity! Now, rotate the tang on the distributor....as the points open & close, you have continuity (closed) and lose it when they open.

3. Coil on, cap off, points open. One probe on the lead on the top of the coil, the other on the cam side of the open points. You should have continuity!

4. Coil on, cap off, points open. One probe on the lead on the top of the coil, the other anywhere on the body of the distributor. You should have no continuity!

At this point, I just put the distributor, coil & cap all back on the tractor as a unit. The reason I do this is because it is real easy to get the cap or coil mis-aligned trying to put it back together one piece at a time & the result is something gets broken or you get a ‘no spark’ problem.

It's possible to put it back on wrong & break it. Look at the slot on the end of the cam shaft. What ever angle it happens to be, turn the distributor tang to match it. Make sure you can tell the wide side from the narrow side on both the cam & distributor! (close counts) Then place the distributor on the front of the engine, gently push it in place & slowly turn the distributor body until you feel the tang slip into the slot. Rotate the distributor body until the bolt holes line up. Then, hand tighten the two bolts until the distributor body is flush w/ the timing gear cover.

Finally, double check your firing order & plug wires. It’s 1-2-4-3, counterclockwise. It’s very easy to cross 3 & 4.

Post back w/ results & any other questions.
DSC03063.jpg

50 Tips
 
... Thanks Bruce/old.... As I said, the whole electrical system was replaced.... new coil, new points, condensor, switch, resistor block, new distributor, ect.... have had issues with coil gasket since day 1... so I pop coil last night to start tesing... a buch of debris was under gasket over condensor.... I wonder if it could also be interfering with points making a contact... i can see gunk down inside the housing....
 
" I wonder if it could also be interfering with points making a contact... i can see gunk down inside the housing..."

Yep.

Pull the distributor, check the point gap & condition & run the continuity check.
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(quoted from post at 15:24:20 12/16/11) " I wonder if it could also be interfering with points making a contact... i can see gunk down inside the housing..."

Yep.

Pull the distributor, check the point gap & condition & run the continuity check.
50 Tips
... she's a purrin like a kitten!! Thanks guys!! points all cleaned up... debris in housing... put her back together, gave battery a good charge, turned over twice, and fired right up!! need a new coil gasket....lol
 
... Thanks Soundguy.... I do the best I can with these old gals... love them.... learning more every day I read posts on here....

... I will "never" again let anyone work on these gals, unless they have "owned" one... otherwise, i will trust the great minds on this forum...

... 8n is due for a full service... she was my newest addition... made room in garage to work on her... she is my "steady eddie".. however, she shows symptoms of hydrolic issues... "noise when lifting"... both machines due for a hydro fluid change... Both machines could use a new battery for the season... 8n has steering bearing issues... needs new plugs... wires,,, ect.... 9n needs brake work.. ect... also has lift sticking at times... ect... so, I plan to invest some time in my machines over the winter....
 
... hydraulic lift on 8n works fine sometimes.... but other times, when lifting, sounds like a freight train car with a flat spot on the wheel... I am suspecting water in fluid causing valve to stick.... (n also has water in system.. can tell by color of fluid.... I have seen posts on here of the Napa part number for the best fluid to use... does anyone know it again off the top of their head?
 
" but other times, when lifting, sounds like a freight train "

If it's just noisy, let it be. If it's jerky coming up, then you have a problem. When the N lift is jerky coming up it means that one or more of the four pump cylinders is not pumping. It can be caused by broken springs in the pump chambers or a broken Scotch yoke in the pump that the pistons are attached to. Either one means the pump will need to be removed from the tractor to fix.


" I am suspecting water in fluid causing valve to stick"

Probably not. The water isn't helping anything, but a sticky exhaust valve is usually from a dirty pump.

For info on changing the hydraulic fluid, check out tips 3 & 4 at the link below.

There are two ways to clean the pump; the “quick clean” that gets a lot of the sludge out of it, & the right way that gets all of it, including the hard packed crud in the pump base.

For the quick clean, after you get the old fluid drained out (overnight is best) remove both inspection plates & start pulling the sludge in the pump base out by hand. Then, get a couple of gallons of kerosene or diesel fuel & pour it into the pump base. Catch it in a bucket & reuse it. (Some folks use a hand garden sprayer.) Flush the pump base out 5 or 6 times. Do not start the engine to run the kerosene through the pump; kerosene and diesel fuel do not have sufficient lubrication properties for a 60 year old hydraulic pump designed to be immersed in 90w gear oil. Some folks say it’s ok to start the engine, engage the pump for a minute or two, then turn the engine off. Your call on that one.

This 'quick-clean' is not as effective as dropping the pump & doing a full job. But if the choice is between doing nothing & the quick clean, spray it out. It worked for me for 3 years on my 1951 N. If you have the time, drop the pump; that is the right way to do it. I’ve done it both ways & don’t plan on doing the quick clean again. That’s because dropping the pump is not a big deal. If you have hard packed crud in the pump base, you are wasting your time w/ the "quick clean".

With all of the fluid drained out, block the front wheels & get the rear wheels up at least a foot. (you'll see why soon enough) Remove the 4 bolts holding the PTO shaft in & pull it to the rear & out of the tractor. Loosen all of the bolts. Remove all but 2 corner bolts. Then, carefully remove them. If you are lucky, the pump will drop free (and dump a pint or so of hydraulic fluid down your sleeves). If not, wrestle it free. The pump has 'ears' that fit into the housing; wiggle it a bit & it will drop free. If you have the rear tires a foot or more off of the ground, you will have enough arm room to hold the pump & lower it at the same time. Put it on your work bench & remove the safety valve (p/n 638) and the control arm lever (p/n 643) which will allow you to remove the intake & exhaust valves (p/n’s 640 & 698) Drop all of it in a bucket of diesel (or mineral spirits) or your parts washer & let it soak overnight. Once it has a good soaking, get it on the bench & start blowing it out w/ compressed air. Run cleaning fluid into the hydraulic discharge near the test port & make sure you get a good flow out the small hole in the side of the pump were the control valve fits. I don't see much need to pull it down any further just to clean it. But, I always replace the safety valve (p/n 638, about $25) Reinstalling the pump is harder than pulling it out because you have a gasket to worry about. (no sealer on the gasket) And, you will probably need a helper to guide the control rod into the pump rocker shaft unless you’ve done this 6 or 7 times before!

While you have the PTO shaft out, it would be a good time to replace the seal on it. It's got two spring clamps around it. Take your needle nose pliers & remove the one in the front. Then, hang the shaft & bearing housing in your vice & tap the butt end of the shaft; the bearing cap will come off (and the shaft will land on your foot). Then, remove the other spring clip from the other side of the bearing. At this point, remember that you never bought a seal driver & go get a BF socket & drive the seal out. If you have the new style seal, the white side goes out. (open side to the oil) Put some grease on it.

Contrary to conventional wisdom, not a lot of water gets in the oil from the shifter boot. Of course, if it's bad, replace it, but you get water from the draft control spring & the dipstick. But, most water is just a byproduct of the heating/cooling cycle of the oil.

You’ll need a pump gasket, safety valve, inspection plate gasket(s), PTO seal, PTO gasket, gasket sealer & 5 gallons of fluid to do all of the above.
50 Tips
 
Thanks Bruce!! You the best!! (along with others on here!)

... here are symptoms of 8n lift....

She worked fine for 3 months after I bought her until I let my neighbor use her to do some hoggin.. he got it stuck... left machine, went back later to try get it out again... mower drifted down... blades stuck in mud... he didn't think to unlink pto shaft to raise mower... put an awful stress on pto...
... sometimes lifts with no noise... and sometimes, quite a racket!! (especially at lower rpm)... and at one time, I loaded a bunch of logs on box, and she wouldn't lift it... (was considerably less weight than the MF-48 hog that it lifted regularly with ease)...
... something is awry... want to correct it before it becomes worse... I doubt it will "fix it on it's own"...
I know there is water in system.. from sources you described, and from normal temp difference "condensation"... want to correct before cold weather, and I freeze/crack a pump.... a few years ago, 9n was so frozen, couldn't even shift her out of gear!! lol...
... upon removing insection plate, I notice no leaks from above... just some turbidity in fluid over pump when working lift...
... I am using her to move wood for now... but want to correct issue over the winter... fix it before it becomes a "bigger" issue... the day it wouldn't lift a feww hundred lbs of logs without "coaxing", leads me to believe a larger issue may be at play, after lifting a mower that is several hundred lbs more all summer...
... yes, sometimes I will get a "slight" shudder out of lift now... and when I start her cold, the lift goes all the way to maximum lift before she drops down or gives me any position control, or response to lift setting...
 
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