9N wont start

RayinVA

Member
I spent the last 9 months taking apart, cleaning, painting, and rebuilding a 1940 9N. Now that it is back together it wont start. It did run before the restoration process.. Now it will fire 3-5 times but then shuts off. the started kicks out and it stops firing.. Any ideas on what I should check or try would be appreciated. This is what I've done recently to try and make it run. Made sure the carb is getting gas and rebuilt the carb and made sure the screen inside the elbow line attachment is clean. the jet is also clean. the idle adjustment screw is set at 1 turn or 1.5 turns. I don't know what the main adjustment screw should be set at.. please advise... I took the distributor off today and reset the points to .015.. they are new points and wires and plugs..... nothing has changed and it still fires a few times and shuts off....Grrrrrrr...spraying starting fluid in the carb air intake does not make it stay on longer...... I replaced all of the wires and think that I did it right,,, but could I be tripping a switch to cut off the electricity to the coil? It is 12V conversion and has a small relay switch with 2 wires and a ground.... i'm not sure what this switch does.... one wire is from the starter and one wire is from the key. my electrical skills are lacking.....

THanks for any good advise.. Ray
 
It is important for you to tell us if your tractor has a 6 volt or 12 volt electrical system. The troubleshooting is different based upon the configuration of your engine.



It takes three things for an engine to run: spark at the right time, compression, & fuel in the right mixture. For the moment, forget about compression & concentrate on narrowing the problem down to spark or fuel.



There are three very important tools you always need to have in your N tool box: a 3 inch piece of wire w/ alligator clips on each end, an old spark plug w/ the gap opened to at least 3/16” ( ¼” is better) and a 7/16 box end wrench. (see tip # 50 at the link below) And, you really do need a working ammeter on the tractor; it is a very important diagnostic tool. With these tools, you can quickly narrow down most N problems to spark or fuel.


First, check for fuel. Get a can & put it under the carb. Remove the bolt in the bottom of the carb; as long as the fuel is turned on, you should see gas flowing out of the carb. Let it run for at least 30 seconds. If it’s a dribble, or runs for 5 seconds & stops, or none at all, you have solved half the problem: it’s fuel related. If gas flows well out of the carb & only stops when you turn it off at the sediment bowl, chances are very good it’s not a fuel problem. So, next, turn the key on, crank the engine & look at the ammeter. What is the needle doing? Does it show a constant discharge, no movement at all, or does it move back & forth slightly? Next, get the old plug, ground it to a rust & paint free spot on the engine, turn the key on & crank the engine. If the spark jumps the 3/16” gap, you probably don’t have a spark problem. If it won’t jump the 3/16” gap, you have a spark problem. If the ammeter needle shows a constant discharge, or doesn’t move at all, that also tells you that you have a spark problem. Jump the ignition switch w/ your jumper wire & see what happens. If it runs, you found the problem. If it doesn’t have spark after you jump the ignition switch, post back for more info on further troubleshooting. (and do not forget to turn the ignition switch off; see tip # 38)



If it does not have gas coming out of the carb at a steady stream w/ the bolt out for at least 30 seconds, you have a fuel problem. First, remove the gas cap. Your vent could be clogged & it vacuum locked. If that doesn’t work, tap the carb bowl w/ a hammer handle in case the float is sticking closed. (don’t whack it w/ the head of the hammer; you can crack the bowl). If you still don’t see gas flowing, the N has three fuel screens; one in the brass elbow, one in the top of the sediment bowl & one on the stem of the sediment bowl in the gas tank. Check the screen in the elbow & the screen in the top of the sediment bowl. (don’t worry about the one in the tank) Both probably need to be cleaned. If you have the fuel knob turned on all the way, & 1 gallon or less in the tank, it may be trying to feed off of the reserve inlet which is probably clogged. Only open it 2 full turns. Put at least 2 gallons in the tank. (and do not forget to turn the gas off; see tip # 9)



There are ways to check for spark & fuel that work & ways that don't. For example, having gas to the carb is nice, but having it past the float is what counts! That’s why removing the bolt in the bottom of the carb is the way to do it. And, same thing w/ spark at the plugs. Some folks think that checking for spark means pulling a plug wire off & looking for one. Well, it's the distance the spark jumps at the plug that gives you the info you want. It takes about 17kv to jump a 3/16" gap & 22kv to jump ¼” in the open air, so that's why you need to use a spark plug. Or, a store bought plug checker (on the left in the picture). Remember, it’s 14psi outside of the engine & about 90psi at a 6:1 compression ratio in the cylinders & compressed air creates electrical resistance, so you really need the 17-22kv to fire the plugs when the engine is running.
DSC02519.jpg

50 Tips
 
Thanks Bruce,,,, This is alot for me to work on tomorrow evening after work... I'll let you know what I find out...... It is a 12 Volt system now..... Ray
 
Yea, pls post back w/ results.

It's probably an electrical problem & likely in the distributor, but it's always, always best to do the diagnostics step by step & rule out spark or fuel.
50 Tips
 
Ray........you write......."Made sure the carb is getting gas and rebuilt the carb and made sure the screen inside the elbow line attachment is clean. the jet is also clean. the idle adjustment screw is set at 1 turn or 1.5 turns. I don't know what the main adjustment screw should be set at"........heres the way I adjust the carb

Set yer down-pointing mainjet to 2-turns and LEAVITT!!!!

Then adjust the side-pointing idlemix to about 1/2-turn and starter up. With a warmed up engine, then adjust the side-pointing idlemix for the FASTEST idle, NOT SMOOTHEST idle. Understand the difference??? I then adjust the behind the carb idlespeed for the SLOOOooow idlespeed of 400-rpms. (ennythang under 500-rpms is good) I then re-adjust the side-pointing idlemix for FASTEST idle. I do the idlemix-idlespeed dance at least 3-times.

Don't haffa tach? then guess, it ain't hard to adjust for FAST. I can "feel" the vibrations with my hand on the hood and almost count the fanblades turning.

Remember: yer side-pointing idlemix is BASSACKWARDS; out fer lean, IN fer ENRICH. The last time I adjusted the carb on my eazy starting 6V-8N, the side-pointing idlemix was 1/4-turn and idlespeed was 435-rpms on new proofmeter.

You ask......."but could I be tripping a switch to cut off the electricity to the coil? It is 12V conversion and has a small relay switch with 2 wires and a ground.... i'm not sure what this switch does.... one wire is from the starter and one wire is from the key. my electrical skills are lacking"........yep, seriously lacking electrical skills ........on yer standard 6V 9N there is NO relay ennywharr. And yer starter is activated by yer tranny mounted jiggle-switch operated starter switch under yer battery tray. And there is NO twist to key-start. But NO, you ain't tripping a switch. But it is hard to out-guess "Bubba" conversions.

I know 8-ways to convert to 12V and they all work the first time. .......Dell, a 12V advocate for the right reason
 
Ray, Bruce did give you good advice, as he always does, however, since you have the unknown relay involved & you say it tries to run as long as you are on the starter, give this a try first.......it might save you some time if lucky. Connect a temporary jumper from battery hot side to coil {{you MUST do this only for a few seconds on a stalled engine or you will likely damage coil & points!!}} So, only connect just as you are ready to hit the starter & if it doesn't run, immediately disconnect. If it runs, the we need to investigate the "relay" & your wiring further.
 
Hello,

It's an electrical problem.. I took the plug off of the bottom of the carb and gas flowed freely for 1 minute.. then it stopped when the sediment bowl gas valve was closed....

You mentioned the distributor... I checked the points again and set them to .015... the points were clean since they are new...... It also has a new condensor and spark plug wires and plugs.. I checked them all and they seem good...

I adjusted an old spark plug to 3/16 in gap and attached it to the 4th plug wire and placed it on a clean head bolt... there was a great white/blue spark when the starter turned the motor over for about 3 seconds...then the starter kicks out and the firing stops.

I attached pictures of the wiring scheme of the tractor. I also attached the small switch or relay that I don't know what it is...any ideas?

after all of the checks of the gas and wiring. the tractor still fires a few times and then shuts off when the starter kicks out.... any ideas on what to check next..??

Thanks,,,

Ray
a38938.jpg

a38939.jpg

a38940.jpg
 
OK, RAY, all my first advice still stands, so here it is repeated:
Ray, Bruce did give you good advice, as he always does, however, since you have the unknown relay involved & you say it tries to run as long as you are on the starter, give this a try first.......it might save you some time if lucky. Connect a temporary jumper from battery hot side to coil {{you MUST do this only for a few seconds on a stalled engine or you will likely damage coil & points!!}} So, only connect just as you are ready to hit the starter & if it doesn't run, immediately disconnect. If it runs, the we need to investigate the "relay" & your wiring further.

Seeing your diagram, I additionally recommend disconnecting all 3 terminals of the relay. I see some peripheral items we can address later.
 
thanks for the comments... I posted a picture of the Bubba 12 V conversion and a few pictures..... It sounds like I might need to redo the 12 V conversion to something that I can understand.... do you have any schematics for an easy conversion to 12 V. ???? and a list of parts? thanks
 
(quoted from post at 10:20:49 04/29/11) Thanks,,,, I'll try a wire to the coil tonight and let you know what happens....
ay, please don't throw more unknowns into the fire until we put this one out. The more change that is introduced, the more difficult it becomes to find what is wrong. I know a 'clean sheet of paper' has its appeal, but save it for a time when it runs & you just want to tidy up. Just as an eye opener, to simply make it run you can delete everything in red & use only the green & make it run. Can go a step further & delete the purple too if you have a hill to push start it on or a tow strap to pull start it. Not much green, just to make it run.
basic_elect_to_run.jpg

By the way, do you have a voltmeter or a test light/probe?
 
I don't use modern view, so I did not get to read this entire thread. Now that I have it in modern view, I see that JMOR has already told you how to troubleshoot this; no need to bother him or Soundguy until you do that.

Did you try what he suggested?
 
I placed a wire from the positive on the battery to the coil..... the starter turned and the tractor started and ran for 5 seconds until I disconnected the wire !!! yeah.. I took the wire off because the starter was still turning and I thought that might not be good.....

so,, what can I try next... Can I simply rewire everything given a new wiring scheme?

Thanks for your suggestions.. I really appreciate the help. This tractor goes back to my dad's farm in PA as soon as its working... He uses it to rake hay with because it is just the right size for the job.....

ray
 
(quoted from post at 18:06:38 04/29/11) I placed a wire from the positive on the battery to the coil..... the starter turned and the tractor started and ran for 5 seconds until I disconnected the wire !!! yeah.. I took the wire off because the starter was still turning and I thought that might not be good.....

so,, what can I try next... Can I simply rewire everything given a new wiring scheme?

Thanks for your suggestions.. I really appreciate the help. This tractor goes back to my dad's farm in PA as soon as its working... He uses it to rake hay with because it is just the right size for the job.....

ray
irst guess is that 9 o'clock terminal on key switch is not making contact with the 1 o'clock terminal on key switch. Clock positions as viewed on your drawing. Jumper those 2 together & try to start.
 
I found a 12 conversion from myfordtractors.com. I think I can copy this but I need help with the connector box that my tractor does not have. The Resistor 1 (R1) and Resistor 2 (R2) and the Diode... Could I purchase the connector box and resistors at an autoparts store??? Is this the way to go?? thanks. ray
a39020.jpg
 
i placed a jumper on the 9 and 1 oclock positions of the ignition switch and tried to start it,,, but it didn't start,,, it was the same as before....
thank you for your comments... I added a 12V conversion diagram to this set of discussions to see it that might help us figure this out..
 
(quoted from post at 21:49:10 04/29/11) i placed a jumper on the 9 and 1 oclock positions of the ignition switch and tried to start it,,, but it didn't start,,, it was the same as before....
thank you for your comments... I added a 12V conversion diagram to this set of discussions to see it that might help us figure this out..
I was more alert earlier than now, but must have had one of those moments! Now, I say AWWW $h!t. You need to make changes marked. I'm embarrassed!!!

Also, since I haven't a clue what L B S stands for on your relay (but picture looks like standard old car horn relay) that won't work as connected so far as I can tell, you can delete all that. Bet it starts now....assuming Ign SW connections are correct.
AWW_ht.jpg
 
THanks.. It started right up after making these changes and it ran for 5 minutes....then it shut off.. and it wont fire at all not.... it would crank over a lot,, but not fire... now it wont even turn over...I'm thinking the ignition switch is bad... or the points are burnt...or both... I did check the gas by taking the plug off of the bottom of the carb and the gas still flows for more than 30 sec.. Does the wire to the coil need a small resistor in line with it ? the diagram from the drawing on the wiring scheme that I placed on here last night shows a resistor.... . we'll.. I'll try and get a new ignition switch today or monday.... if you think that might be part of the problem...

I do appreciate all of you'als help... Ray
 
(quoted from post at 11:02:31 04/30/11) THanks.. It started right up after making these changes and it ran for 5 minutes....then it shut off.. and it wont fire at all not.... it would crank over a lot,, but not fire... now it wont even turn over...I'm thinking the ignition switch is bad... or the points are burnt...or both... I did check the gas by taking the plug off of the bottom of the carb and the gas still flows for more than 30 sec.. Does the wire to the coil need a small resistor in line with it ? the diagram from the drawing on the wiring scheme that I placed on here last night shows a resistor.... . we'll.. I'll try and get a new ignition switch today or monday.... if you think that might be part of the problem...

I do appreciate all of you'als help... Ray

"now it wont even turn over...I'm thinking the ignition switch is bad... or the points are burnt...or both.."
No, sir, ONLY the big manually operated start switch has anything to do with powering the starter motor to turn over the engine. Ign sw & points are NOT involved with that. Check battery cable connections at both ends & start sw to starter motor cable connections at both ends. If still no starter operation, use an old screwdriver to short across the two big terminals on the start switch {first making certain that transmission is in NEUTRAL!}.

Yes, if you recall, I said early on that once we found whatever it was that kept it from starting, that there were other issues to address.......one of those is the need for the #12250 ballast resistor. 5 minutes of run time didn't hurt anything, but to cover longer run time & the 'engine stalled but Ign sw on" conditions, the resistor needs to be there. Other things (but not to be concerned with at this time) are the ammeter connection. I don't like it, because it will read ONLY alternator output & never show a drain/discharge. Another is powering of the Excite terminal #1 of the alternator via the Accessory position on the key switch.....this can under certain conditions be harmful to alternator, but many do it & get away with it for a long time. Just future things to think about when everything is working.
 
Thank you very much for your suggestions.. It's running well now.. and starts everytime... I had a bad set of points that came apart and made the contacts close and not open... it was the side of the points that located in the plastic/teflon section. the points pulled out of the plastic/teflon... so ,, I put the old points on it and now it runs ..... yeah,,, first time in 9 months !!

So,, moving on to the next step.. I see the ampmeter is always on zero.. should this discharge when starting and go slightly positive while charging ????? how do I know if it is charging the battery.....

And where does the 12250 ballast resister go?? I assume I get it at a ford tractor dealer.. would TSC have it?? I need to go now.. I'll reread your message tomorrow..

thanks again..
ray
 
Now you know that changing a lot of parts can get you in trouble.Junk points are common.Look at your ammeter when the engine is cranking, it should flick from zero to 4 amps when the points are opening and closing.Your meter could be wired wrong if you dont see this now that the engine is starting ok.I just cleaned and gapped a set of points that have been in my tractor for 24 years.They are marked Motorcraft.
 
(quoted from post at 06:27:39 05/01/11) Now you know that changing a lot of parts can get you in trouble.Junk points are common.Look at your ammeter when the engine is cranking, it should flick from zero to 4 amps when the points are opening and closing.Your meter could be wired wrong if you dont see this now that the engine is starting ok.I just cleaned and gapped a set of points that have been in my tractor for 24 years.They are marked Motorcraft.
ot could be...it is. And I already told him that.
 
Hello, Could someone check this wiring diagram for accuracy? I took it from suggestions that JMOR gave me that made the 9N come to life.. and I added wiring from the 12V conversion diagram that I have posted on this set discussion of my 9N.....
I have the ballast Resistor as part number 12250.

Can you tell me the part number for the Diode? Or is this not needed???

Thanks for your comments.. Ray
 
(quoted from post at 19:48:56 05/01/11) Hello, Could someone check this wiring diagram for accuracy? I took it from suggestions that JMOR gave me that made the 9N come to life.. and I added wiring from the 12V conversion diagram that I have posted on this set discussion of my 9N.....
I have the ballast Resistor as part number 12250.

Can you tell me the part number for the Diode? Or is this not needed???

Thanks for your comments.. Ray
evin's diagram is just fine. I'll not bore you with details about need for diode, but it is worth while to have it.
Any of these & others with similar voltage/current ratings will be fine: 1N5404, 1N5408, 1N5551, Radio Shack RS-276-1661
 
Thanks for your comments through this learning experience of wiring this ford 9N... I"ve restored two green tractors with magnetos so I haven"t dealt with the the wiring for the battery, starter, and altenator before...Thanks for the learning experience...

I will purchase the resistor and diode today or tomorrow and get the wiring corrected.....

Ray
 
My 6 volt tractor hauled 2 loads of brush to the the burn pile today.Started and ran fine.Why not convert to 6 volts.
 

Similar threads

Yesterday's Tractor Forums

We sell tractor parts! We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today.

Back
Top