Adding a ground wire for a new GFI

[plattman]

Adding to electrical day. I have an old 2 wire outlet in the shed I park the JD in. No neutral and no ground just a black and white. Very wet in there especially in bad weather when I would be pre heating and always have a trickle charger on. Would like to install a new GFI and could run a bare or insulated single strand to a nearby water line. Would the GFI function with this type of ground on a simple circuit. Yes this is probably original wiring from decades ago.

 

[stevieb49829]

And why wouldn't/couldn't you pound a ground rod in/near the shed and connect there? After all, they all go to "ground". steve

 

[Stan Coryell]

Adding to electrical day. I have an old 2 wire outlet in the shed I park the JD in. No neutral and no ground just a black and white. Very wet in there especially in bad weather when I would be pre heating and always have a trickle charger on. Would like to install a new GFI and could run a bare or insulated single strand to a nearby water line. Would the GFI function with this type of ground on a simple circuit. Yes this is probably original wiring from decades ago.

A ground wire isn't necessary for the correct operation of a GFCI. Adding a ground wire doesn't meet code. You would need to re-feed the circuit from the ground source (circuit breaker panel). The ground rod won't add grounding protection, the ground wire needs to go back to the transformer at the street.

Simply installing the GFCI will give you ground fault protection.

 

[John T]

Good evening plattman, WOW here goes:

1) You state: No neutral and no ground just a black and white.

FYI If its the old two 2 wire system of 120 Volts THERE IS INDEED A NEUTRAL EVEN IF NO GROUND....The Neutral is actually a GrounDED Conductor. Standard (you may or may not have) Black is the HOT/LINE UnGrounded Conductor,,,,,,,,White is the Grounded Conducotr aka Neutral,,,,,,,,,,,,One wire is Hot/Line other is Neutral with 120 VAC Line to Neutral IFFFFFFFFFFFFFF ALLS CORRECT !!!!! with or without any ground

2) Would like to install a new GFI........... Fine no problem go for it even with the old TWO wire (Hot & Neutral) system !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FYI a GFCI receptacle can still operate and provide ground fault protection WITHOUT A GROUND WIRE. The ONLY two wires that pass through its Torroid Sensing Coil are the Hot/Line UnGrounded Conductor and the Grounded Conductor Neutral and if theres as litle as 0.005 amps of fault current IT WILL TRIP with or without any ground wire...................HOWEVER any test feature that works by passing 0.005 amps of fault current via a traditional modern Equipment Grounding Conductor WILL NOT WORK if theres no EGC present BUT GFCI PROTECTION FUNCTION CAN STILL WORK

3) and could run a bare or insulated single strand to a nearby water line.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Thats NOT necessary to make the GFCI work and is NOT kosher I do NOT advise such and its in violation of the NEC when and where I last practiced power distribution engineering.............

NOTE nor do I recommend any BOOTLEG GROUND made by attaching a ground wire to the Neutral

4) Would the GFI function with this type of ground on a simple circuit.

YES it will still provide ground fault protection WITH OR WITHOUT any wires to a water pipe or elsewhere and again I would NOT run any wires from it to a water pipe !!!!!!!!!!!!

NOTE Im long retired from power distribution and NOT up on the latest codes so if this is incorrect hopefully some other fine sparky gents can add to or correct this PLEASE DO SO I may well have missed something grrrrrrrrrrrr my bad

SUMMARY its my opinion it will still work (provide GF protection even if some test function cant work) WITHOUT any ground wire and I would NOT run any wires to any water pipe nor rig a Bootleg Ground See if others agree, usually you get a ton of responses to an electrical question ...........

PS In addition to kithen and bath locations, receptacles located outdoors or in shops or pole barns etc with concrete or dirt floors REQUIRE GFCI protection !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

John T Long retired EE but believe this is still true. When in doubt where fire and life safety are at risk do not take my word for this consult professional electricians and engineers and the NEC where applicable !!!!!!!!!!

 

[Dusty MI]

Just because it is a steel pipe coming out of the ground doesn't mean that it's steel all the way, it might change to plastic just a little way down.

 

[Janicholson]

Good evening plattman, WOW here goes:

1) You state: No neutral and no ground just a black and white.

FYI If its the old two 2 wire system of 120 Volts THERE IS INDEED A NEUTRAL EVEN IF NO GROUND....The Neutral is actually a GrounDED Conductor. Standard (you may or may not have) Black is the HOT/LINE UnGrounded Conductor,,,,,,,,White is the Grounded Conducotr aka Neutral,,,,,,,,,,,,One wire is Hot/Line other is Neutral with 120 VAC Line to Neutral IFFFFFFFFFFFFFF ALLS CORRECT !!!!! with or without any ground

2) Would like to install a new GFI........... Fine no problem go for it even with the old TWO wire (Hot & Neutral) system !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FYI a GFCI receptacle can still operate and provide ground fault protection WITHOUT A GROUND WIRE. The ONLY two wires that pass through its Torroid Sensing Coil are the Hot/Line UnGrounded Conductor and the Grounded Conductor Neutral and if theres as litle as 0.005 amps of fault current IT WILL TRIP with or without any ground wire...................HOWEVER any test feature that works by passing 0.005 amps of fault current via a traditional modern Equipment Grounding Conductor WILL NOT WORK if theres no EGC present BUT GFCI PROTECTION FUNCTION CAN STILL WORK

3) and could run a bare or insulated single strand to a nearby water line.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Thats NOT necessary to make the GFCI work and is NOT kosher I do NOT advise such and its in violation of the NEC when and where I last practiced power distribution engineering.............

NOTE nor do I recommend any BOOTLEG GROUND made by attaching a ground wire to the Neutral

4) Would the GFI function with this type of ground on a simple circuit.

YES it will still provide ground fault protection WITH OR WITHOUT any wires to a water pipe or elsewhere and again I would NOT run any wires from it to a water pipe !!!!!!!!!!!!

NOTE Im long retired from power distribution and NOT up on the latest codes so if this is incorrect hopefully some other fine sparky gents can add to or correct this PLEASE DO SO I may well have missed something grrrrrrrrrrrr my bad

SUMMARY its my opinion it will still work (provide GF protection even if some test function cant work) WITHOUT any ground wire and I would NOT run any wires to any water pipe nor rig a Bootleg Ground See if others agree, usually you get a ton of responses to an electrical question ...........

PS In addition to kithen and bath locations, receptacles located outdoors or in shops or pole barns etc with concrete or dirt floors REQUIRE GFCI protection !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

John T Long retired EE but believe this is still true. When in doubt where fire and life safety are at risk do not take my word for this consult professional electricians and engineers and the NEC where applicable !!!!!!!!!!

Correct!!! Two ideas that I think are good, If the feed to the remote outlet is overhead, a real ground could be run to the originating panel. A GFCI circuit breaker could be installed in the feed panel. Jim

 

[plattman]

Good evening plattman, WOW here goes:

1) You state: No neutral and no ground just a black and white.

FYI If its the old two 2 wire system of 120 Volts THERE IS INDEED A NEUTRAL EVEN IF NO GROUND....The Neutral is actually a GrounDED Conductor. Standard (you may or may not have) Black is the HOT/LINE UnGrounded Conductor,,,,,,,,White is the Grounded Conducotr aka Neutral,,,,,,,,,,,,One wire is Hot/Line other is Neutral with 120 VAC Line to Neutral IFFFFFFFFFFFFFF ALLS CORRECT !!!!! with or without any ground

2) Would like to install a new GFI........... Fine no problem go for it even with the old TWO wire (Hot & Neutral) system !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FYI a GFCI receptacle can still operate and provide ground fault protection WITHOUT A GROUND WIRE. The ONLY two wires that pass through its Torroid Sensing Coil are the Hot/Line UnGrounded Conductor and the Grounded Conductor Neutral and if theres as litle as 0.005 amps of fault current IT WILL TRIP with or without any ground wire...................HOWEVER any test feature that works by passing 0.005 amps of fault current via a traditional modern Equipment Grounding Conductor WILL NOT WORK if theres no EGC present BUT GFCI PROTECTION FUNCTION CAN STILL WORK

3) and could run a bare or insulated single strand to a nearby water line.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Thats NOT necessary to make the GFCI work and is NOT kosher I do NOT advise such and its in violation of the NEC when and where I last practiced power distribution engineering.............

NOTE nor do I recommend any BOOTLEG GROUND made by attaching a ground wire to the Neutral

4) Would the GFI function with this type of ground on a simple circuit.

YES it will still provide ground fault protection WITH OR WITHOUT any wires to a water pipe or elsewhere and again I would NOT run any wires from it to a water pipe !!!!!!!!!!!!

NOTE Im long retired from power distribution and NOT up on the latest codes so if this is incorrect hopefully some other fine sparky gents can add to or correct this PLEASE DO SO I may well have missed something grrrrrrrrrrrr my bad

SUMMARY its my opinion it will still work (provide GF protection even if some test function cant work) WITHOUT any ground wire and I would NOT run any wires to any water pipe nor rig a Bootleg Ground See if others agree, usually you get a ton of responses to an electrical question ...........

PS In addition to kithen and bath locations, receptacles located outdoors or in shops or pole barns etc with concrete or dirt floors REQUIRE GFCI protection !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

John T Long retired EE but believe this is still true. When in doubt where fire and life safety are at risk do not take my word for this consult professional electricians and engineers and the NEC where applicable !!!!!!!!!!

Thank you for your response. Very helpful to have some idea how GFIs work. It is a dirt floor in an out building . Good to know I will have protection without adding a wire. I believe I understand there will be no test function with just the 2 wire feed.

 

[buickanddeere]

A 10ft ground rod or a buried plate is encouraged here . A GFCI on it’s own is “legal” , however adding the ground to the GFCI is better .
What kind of fuse or breaker panel is in the shed ?

 

[John T]

Thank you for your response. Very helpful to have some idea how GFIs work. It is a dirt floor in an out building . Good to know I will have protection without adding a wire. I believe I understand there will be no test function with just the 2 wire feed.

Sounds like you have it down now !!! Indeed a gfci receptacle still protects against a ground fault with or without any third wire ground. The whole matter of the old two wire versus the modern three wire along with proper grounding and bonding is a whole other issue much more than can be covered here. Best wishes be safe out there. John T

 

[drsportster]

Adding to electrical day. I have an old 2 wire outlet in the shed I park the JD in. No neutral and no ground just a black and white. Very wet in there especially in bad weather when I would be pre heating and always have a trickle charger on. Would like to install a new GFI and could run a bare or insulated single strand to a nearby water line. Would the GFI function with this type of ground on a simple circuit. Yes this is probably original wiring from decades ago.

GFI will operate fine with no ground [a common use for a GFI when ground is missing install GFI . Done . Your good now . {electrician}

 

[sms]

Adding to electrical day. I have an old 2 wire outlet in the shed I park the JD in. No neutral and no ground just a black and white. Very wet in there especially in bad weather when I would be pre heating and always have a trickle charger on. Would like to install a new GFI and could run a bare or insulated single strand to a nearby water line. Would the GFI function with this type of ground on a simple circuit. Yes this is probably original wiring from decades ago.

If you just ground to pipe or ground rod in the case of a short the power would then have to find a way back to the panel through the path of least resistance. Earth or if pipe not grounded to panel you if you touch pipe with feet on the ground. Seen it happen.

 

[tech4]

Good evening plattman, WOW here goes:

1) You state: No neutral and no ground just a black and white.

FYI If its the old two 2 wire system of 120 Volts THERE IS INDEED A NEUTRAL EVEN IF NO GROUND....The Neutral is actually a GrounDED Conductor. Standard (you may or may not have) Black is the HOT/LINE UnGrounded Conductor,,,,,,,,White is the Grounded Conducotr aka Neutral,,,,,,,,,,,,One wire is Hot/Line other is Neutral with 120 VAC Line to Neutral IFFFFFFFFFFFFFF ALLS CORRECT !!!!! with or without any ground

2) Would like to install a new GFI........... Fine no problem go for it even with the old TWO wire (Hot & Neutral) system !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FYI a GFCI receptacle can still operate and provide ground fault protection WITHOUT A GROUND WIRE. The ONLY two wires that pass through its Torroid Sensing Coil are the Hot/Line UnGrounded Conductor and the Grounded Conductor Neutral and if theres as litle as 0.005 amps of fault current IT WILL TRIP with or without any ground wire...................HOWEVER any test feature that works by passing 0.005 amps of fault current via a traditional modern Equipment Grounding Conductor WILL NOT WORK if theres no EGC present BUT GFCI PROTECTION FUNCTION CAN STILL WORK

3) and could run a bare or insulated single strand to a nearby water line.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Thats NOT necessary to make the GFCI work and is NOT kosher I do NOT advise such and its in violation of the NEC when and where I last practiced power distribution engineering.............

NOTE nor do I recommend any BOOTLEG GROUND made by attaching a ground wire to the Neutral

4) Would the GFI function with this type of ground on a simple circuit.

YES it will still provide ground fault protection WITH OR WITHOUT any wires to a water pipe or elsewhere and again I would NOT run any wires from it to a water pipe !!!!!!!!!!!!

NOTE Im long retired from power distribution and NOT up on the latest codes so if this is incorrect hopefully some other fine sparky gents can add to or correct this PLEASE DO SO I may well have missed something grrrrrrrrrrrr my bad

SUMMARY its my opinion it will still work (provide GF protection even if some test function cant work) WITHOUT any ground wire and I would NOT run any wires to any water pipe nor rig a Bootleg Ground See if others agree, usually you get a ton of responses to an electrical question ...........

PS In addition to kithen and bath locations, receptacles located outdoors or in shops or pole barns etc with concrete or dirt floors REQUIRE GFCI protection !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

John T Long retired EE but believe this is still true. When in doubt where fire and life safety are at risk do not take my word for this consult professional electricians and engineers and the NEC where applicable !!!!!!!!!!

John, I agree with all you said, but I have not seen anyone discuss the open-ground pin in the receptacle. Even if you have a two-pin receptacle, almost everyone has those adapters. For instance, someone plugs a metal case drill (I have a couple of those) and the hot wire is shorted to the metal case. Yes, I know the GFCI will still protect you if it is working, I worked as a home inspector for several years and I often found GFCI's that did not work.

 

[John T]

John, I agree with all you said, but I have not seen anyone discuss the open-ground pin in the receptacle. Even if you have a two-pin receptacle, almost everyone has those adapters. For instance, someone plugs a metal case drill (I have a couple of those) and the hot wire is shorted to the metal case. Yes, I know the GFCI will still protect you if it is working, I worked as a home inspector for several years and I often found GFCI's that did not work.

Yeppers those open or defeated ground pins are a hazard waiting to happen on tools with outer metal cases when the hot shorts to case/frame. I’ve also seen defective gfci’s often the cheap big box store units.,.nice sparky chatting with you. John T