JWA
Member
- Location
- Somerville,TN
41 9N 12volt conversion. Amp meter has quit. Is there a consensus whether amperes meter or volt meter is more useful?
notjustair
Well-known Member
I always default to an ammeter. A volt gauge tells you it's working. An ammeter tells you how it's working.
An amp meter shows amp draw when starting depending on where it's hooked into and charge rate. You can determine by watching it if a battery is taking a charge. A volt meter shows initial battery voltage, voltage draw when cranking then how many volts are there once running.
A battery load tester is a diagnostic tool and mine shows voltage, if voltage drop is excessive and when hooked to a running vehicle the basic condition of the charging system. It's east, 2 clamps to hook to anything I own that has a charging system here on the farm (9 items) and can be taken wherever it's needed to help family and friends out. Plus it was cheaper than buying volt meters for 7 or 8 items.
Rick
A battery load tester is a diagnostic tool and mine shows voltage, if voltage drop is excessive and when hooked to a running vehicle the basic condition of the charging system. It's east, 2 clamps to hook to anything I own that has a charging system here on the farm (9 items) and can be taken wherever it's needed to help family and friends out. Plus it was cheaper than buying volt meters for 7 or 8 items.
Rick
Tim PloughNman Daley
Well-known Member
Yes, all true, but with a 12-volt convulsion, you want to see that the alternator is charging the battery in volts. When I do conversions I always swap out the ammeter with a voltmeter, but you don't have to...
Tim *PloughNman* Daley(MI)
Tim *PloughNman* Daley(MI)
I use neither since they only tell me there was a problem and now it won't start . I do a monthly service check or more after a heavy week of use and a yearly major service every winter . If it spins fast then I would look at the ignition system first , if it spins slow I would look at the charging system . l have an Alternator and EL system and keep it clean and have had zero use for any electrical gauge for years .
I work my tractors hard and use a water temp gauge in that hole .
OK, why wouldn't you want to see what a 6 volt was being charged to? You can over or under charge a 6 volt battery too. Come on, they put amp meters on a lot of 12 volt tractors and trucks before finally going over to the volt meter and even then the volt meter wasn't new.
Now I've worked as an auto mechanic. Lot of vehicles out there with a with a volt meter. After dealing with customers driving these vehicles it's easy to tell that the average person doesn't know what the volt meter does. We actually had customers come in thinking their car was broken because the volt meter showed more than 12 volts. Lot of these people knew what an amp meter was. Basically the volt meter told them they had a battery while the amp meter told them the charging system was working.
There really is no sound reason to argue in favor of one over the other. An idiot light works too!
Rick
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
VOLTMETER HANDS DOWN
Whats the easiest thing to check... Volts
Which one can you get a static reading on... Volts
Amp meter lubbers can sure dream up some neat chit... They need to sharpen there diagnostic skills...
Tote a amp meter in your pocket for the RARE time a amp reading MAY come in handy. Other than that rare time Volts is all you need to know to determine the starting/charging system health operating your tractor.
The first tool any real mechanic would chose to check electrical system health would be a voltmeter, If he did not he's lost from the get go... He's probably a lifetime card tote'N amp meter lubber :lol:
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
Folks live for decades and never experience a drain on there battery... Those that did using a alt it would be a rare event to see a dash mounted amp meter indicate it.
If they had a short nether gauge would be of any help...
Funny but I've had a multimeter in my tool box from the time I was 18, in 1973. So I really don't need an in dash, can't take it to another item to work on, volt gauge.
Some people just can't stand to be told their idea isn't always the best! If that darned volt meter was so danged important I have several questions. Why did it take so long before they started installing them as standard equipment in some vehicles? Why don't the average person know how to read one or even what it does? And why, with most pro mechanics having a multimeter, a load tester or both, is it needed on a vehicle at all with how few work on their own vehicles. Heck on a good day I sometimes think that you would be lucky if 1/2 the drivers knew how to check oil! And you think they need a volt meter? Heck I know a 30 year old woman who has destroyed 2 car engines because she can't figure out what a temp gauge is for! And I don't know any mechanics who expect the customer to provide diagnostic equipment! That ole amp meter was designed into that ole Ford! I've heard that argument on here before regarding 12 volt conversion and EI. I really don't care if you have one or the other. I don't think one is better than the other. I have the skills and tools to figure out electrical problems.
On another note, Farmall for a number of years had idiot lights for both the charging system and oil pressure! Started with the 06 series in 63. Boy I guess those farmers were done and the tractor sent to scrap when one of those lights came on :lol:! Guess no one could trouble shoot those cause they didn't have a volt meter!
Sorry, just because you spent money on one doesn't mean everyone has to. I think I'm way ahead with my multimeter and load tester! Heck with 8 tractors with the total of 9 batteries, a vehicle, riding mower and 2 boats with a total of 5 batteries I'm money ahead sticking with what I have!
Now most of the time you give pretty good advice on here but this is one time I think you are off base.
Rick
Rick
Some people just can't stand to be told their idea isn't always the best! If that darned volt meter was so danged important I have several questions. Why did it take so long before they started installing them as standard equipment in some vehicles? Why don't the average person know how to read one or even what it does? And why, with most pro mechanics having a multimeter, a load tester or both, is it needed on a vehicle at all with how few work on their own vehicles. Heck on a good day I sometimes think that you would be lucky if 1/2 the drivers knew how to check oil! And you think they need a volt meter? Heck I know a 30 year old woman who has destroyed 2 car engines because she can't figure out what a temp gauge is for! And I don't know any mechanics who expect the customer to provide diagnostic equipment! That ole amp meter was designed into that ole Ford! I've heard that argument on here before regarding 12 volt conversion and EI. I really don't care if you have one or the other. I don't think one is better than the other. I have the skills and tools to figure out electrical problems.
On another note, Farmall for a number of years had idiot lights for both the charging system and oil pressure! Started with the 06 series in 63. Boy I guess those farmers were done and the tractor sent to scrap when one of those lights came on :lol:! Guess no one could trouble shoot those cause they didn't have a volt meter!
Sorry, just because you spent money on one doesn't mean everyone has to. I think I'm way ahead with my multimeter and load tester! Heck with 8 tractors with the total of 9 batteries, a vehicle, riding mower and 2 boats with a total of 5 batteries I'm money ahead sticking with what I have!
Now most of the time you give pretty good advice on here but this is one time I think you are off base.
Rick
Rick
Ultradog MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Twin Cities
[i:654c4848f0]"An idiot light works too."[/i:654c4848f0]
There you go. That's my preference.
That big red eye will sure get your
attention a lot faster than a slight
fluctuation on a gauge. The 65 and newer
Fords have idiot lights for elect and oil.
Only way to go imo.
There you go. That's my preference.
That big red eye will sure get your
attention a lot faster than a slight
fluctuation on a gauge. The 65 and newer
Fords have idiot lights for elect and oil.
Only way to go imo.
Just can't remain silent any longer! Can't add much to what has been said, either, but..........the decent trouble shooter has both & knows how to use them. The rest of the world will be better off with idiot light. "There really is no sound reason to argue in favor of one over the other. An idiot light works too!" The 'sound reason' is cost & the timing of voltmeter in dash corresponds to high current electrical systems in vehicles. A 20-30ampmeter & associated wiring costs little more than a voltmeter, but....step that up to 63 amp alternators and now over 100 amp alternators and fit that with the wiring/shunt/meter to read amperes that! $$$$
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
Three thinks a man needs to know that's it three things a amp meter can not tell you. These three things that need to be know before you start any diagnostics. Three questions amp meter lubbers most of the time do not ask.
1) Key on engine off voltage
2) Battery voltage while cranking
3) Battery voltage ruining.
Whats so hard about that...
Lets use a amp meter to read 1,2,3 what useful info does it tell you to make a quick judgment of the health of the starting/charging system.
1) Nuttin
2) Nuttin
3) You can have positive amps but still have low voltage your battery will suffer from a under charged state.
http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?t=1239210&highlight=switch
I know we are talking about tractors were it would take 30min to do the clean bright and tight thang that is if you did not chase your tail and yank the starter to shine it up... On modern equipment it may take a day to play clean bright and tight.
What I tell new drivers.
You do not have to be a master wrench to learn what a normal gauge reading normally should be voltmeter, amp, temp, oil pressure etc. They are indicators if they are not normal find out why are call daddy and let him make the judgment call. Its Daddys money you are spending if he makes the wrong call its his call not yours.
You guys make it to hard and harder when a electrical question is asked. You should start with the easy stuff then work to the hard stuff... When someone states they don't have a voltmeter tell'em go get one and report back. Every electrical diagnosis starts with a healthy battery EVERY ONE are you will be chasing your tail... Why not just hang it on the dash and learn how to interpreted it...
It seams every day for us that keep up with modern diagnostic new ways are found to diagnosis electrical issues using a Voltmeter. If you are a amp meter lubber and lost in time good luck...
Quot
If you don't know were you are going any path will take you there, eventually. But with electrical troubleshooting, your destination must be identified before you begin your journey.
That big red eye has reminded me to turn the key off more than once , which is a lot more helpful than either gauge . When I hit the starter button it either starts are it doesn't . If it starts then I have no problem and do not need any electrical gauge . If it doesn't start , then I will grab a gauge and some tools . I inspect and lightly service my tractors at least once a month .My 68 3000 has a fuel and temp gauge which is all I need . Since I don't pay anyone else's bills it would be fine with me if they installed an Amp and a Volt gauge .
Here's the deal.
These tractors were made back when men were men, and people knew a few things.
Why was an ammeter chosen over a volt meter? It's not becuase they didn't make volt meters! It's because an ammeter tells you some very usefull things about your CHARGING system. A volt meter tells you ONLY voltage level. Many people like to swap to a volt meter when doing a 12v conversion, adding an alternator, etc... Here's the -REAL- difference.
I can take 9 AAA batteries and string them in series and then measure their voltage.. it will be 12.6 - 13.95VDC if the batteries are in spec. That's what your volt meter will tell you... You can go place that volt meter over your car battery cold, not run in a day or two, or hot, just after running. It's going to read the SAME.
Which of those 2 will start your car? the AAA batteries.. or the car battery? Volts matter.. but amps matter more. AAA have the volts, but not the amps.
Now.. lets apply some practical thinking.. I know.. most people today, including some mechanics, aren't capable of practical thinking. The local here ( Tuffy )garage only works on stuff they can plug a scan tool into. And if replacing the sensor the scan tool says is bad doesn't fix your car.. that's about the extent of their capability... sadly... unless you want an oil change with that too...
Now.. the practical stuff.
You turn on your tractor key and see 12v on the meter. Great right? MAYBEE... you might hit the start button and it drops to about 7.5 and the relay chatters. What did you learn? the battery is dead. You don't know WHY it is dead.. but you know it's dead. The volt meter just didn't help you much did it? It told you something you could discover COMPLETELY on your own. In other words.. after you figured out your battery was dead. RRR...RR..R..click, the meter said. OH yeah.. your battery is dead. man.. that's odd. When I shut it down after running for an hour it said 12v too. Gee, that's odd.
Lets try that again with an amp meter.
You turn on your tractor key and maybee see - amps or not, depending on where the points are. You hit the button. RRR..RR..R..click Ok.. battery is dead. ( right now you are even with the volt meter... ALMOST ). You know the battery is dead.. you didn't need to see a volt meter on 7v to tell you... Now here is where the AMP meter SHINES! Remember.. voltage is important, amperage is more important! During that last run before you shut down, you amp meter showed you a couple things.. all it takes is you paying attention, and having some practical knowledge of why your machine makes noise and smoke and moves, after you start it up. Lets say you are driving around and your alternator QUITS. the amp meter, since it is wired in a 'NET' charge/discharge way, all of a sudden, swings from a positive charge to a SLIGHT discharge. Your ignition doesn't take many amps, and an otherwise good battery can run that ignition ALL day before going dead. And during that time, the voltage will still be high, like 12v. So the ammeter has just told you something a volt meter wouldn't. At the moment of alternator failure, the system voltage just won't change much.. at least not on a cruddy tractor volt meter that maybee lists 3 voltages and has lots of slashes, and with a jumpy needle on a machine that you drive around the farm.. seeing a volt difference just ain't telling you anything. The ammeter on the other hand swings negative. it just told you something you can use. You know right then you have a problem and need to fix it. Next. Lets say the alternator or generator is fine.. ( but another secret problem has occured ) Your volt meter is saying 14v or whatever it can read.. 12v plus some hash marks.. fine right? MAYBEE. Lets look at what your amp meter reads. Your ammeter is now for some reason reading twice as high as normal. Lets say your ammeter normally reads about +4 amps, after it has settled down from startup.. and that's about what it always reads. Now, suddenly, it is reading 8... BINGO! your amp meter has just told you something that your volt meter couldn't! You are needing more charge current for some reason. Since this is a NET charge / discharge system, and is ONLY telling you CHARGE into the battery, or DISCHARGE from the battery .. you KNOW ( amp meter TOLD YOU ).. that it is taking more amps all of a sudden to charge your battery. Prime cause of that are cells going bad. But why didn't your VOLT METER tell you this? Well.. your volt meter can only tell you one thing! voltage level. Lets look at why this DOESN"T help in this situation. Your alternator with automatic voltage regulator want's to keep the charge voltage at a set level. Lets call it 14.4v whatever will depend on a few things. Now. say it takes, after startup and everything is topped off, just a few amps to keep the battery charging.. no prob.. you are no where near your alternators capacity, so it pumps those electrons out to the battery. Now, say the battery looses a cell or 2.. all of a sudden, because of the near shorted cells, the electrical load jumps up.. but wait.. it's not a problem.. the alternator is STILL not at it's charging capacity, so it just pumps out even more electrons into that partially shorted battery in order to keep that magic VOLTAGE # stable. So there you are happily driving along reading your 12v plus a couple hash marks on your volt meter.. your battery has coughed up a lung, your charge current is much higher than normal.. but you don't know.. because the VOLT METER can't tell you that. Your alternator is capapble of charging enough to keep voltage up. Great right? WRONG! You turn the tractor off, then ten minutes later you need to move it. woops! battery is only at 8V now... alternator ain't charging with the engine off, thus now the battery is only at the level it can be with a couple shorted cells.. and there you are with the RR..RR..R..click.
Had you had an AMP meter, you would have KNOWN the CONDITION of the CHARGE SYSTEM, instead of JUST knowing the VOLTAGE level.
That's the big difference. The ammeter reading would have told you the battery was charging with higher than normal current, telling you there was a problem.
This sort of info is helpfull to know BEFORE you park that machine in the hard to get to spot to jump, or far away from tools or place to work on it... really... it told you to EXPECT a problem... the volt meter tells you AFTER you have the problem.
Which one do you want? Would you like to know about an issue as it happens and while happening and be able to analyze it? Or would you like to walk out to the dead tractor , try to start it, have it not start, then have the volt meter yell out.. OH yeah.. battery died yesterday while you were mowing.. but I couldn't tell you...
It's all about practicality, and understanding what your net Ammeter CAN actually tell you, if you listen.
These tractors were made back when men were men, and people knew a few things.
Why was an ammeter chosen over a volt meter? It's not becuase they didn't make volt meters! It's because an ammeter tells you some very usefull things about your CHARGING system. A volt meter tells you ONLY voltage level. Many people like to swap to a volt meter when doing a 12v conversion, adding an alternator, etc... Here's the -REAL- difference.
I can take 9 AAA batteries and string them in series and then measure their voltage.. it will be 12.6 - 13.95VDC if the batteries are in spec. That's what your volt meter will tell you... You can go place that volt meter over your car battery cold, not run in a day or two, or hot, just after running. It's going to read the SAME.
Which of those 2 will start your car? the AAA batteries.. or the car battery? Volts matter.. but amps matter more. AAA have the volts, but not the amps.
Now.. lets apply some practical thinking.. I know.. most people today, including some mechanics, aren't capable of practical thinking. The local here ( Tuffy )garage only works on stuff they can plug a scan tool into. And if replacing the sensor the scan tool says is bad doesn't fix your car.. that's about the extent of their capability... sadly... unless you want an oil change with that too...
Now.. the practical stuff.
You turn on your tractor key and see 12v on the meter. Great right? MAYBEE... you might hit the start button and it drops to about 7.5 and the relay chatters. What did you learn? the battery is dead. You don't know WHY it is dead.. but you know it's dead. The volt meter just didn't help you much did it? It told you something you could discover COMPLETELY on your own. In other words.. after you figured out your battery was dead. RRR...RR..R..click, the meter said. OH yeah.. your battery is dead. man.. that's odd. When I shut it down after running for an hour it said 12v too. Gee, that's odd.
Lets try that again with an amp meter.
You turn on your tractor key and maybee see - amps or not, depending on where the points are. You hit the button. RRR..RR..R..click Ok.. battery is dead. ( right now you are even with the volt meter... ALMOST ). You know the battery is dead.. you didn't need to see a volt meter on 7v to tell you... Now here is where the AMP meter SHINES! Remember.. voltage is important, amperage is more important! During that last run before you shut down, you amp meter showed you a couple things.. all it takes is you paying attention, and having some practical knowledge of why your machine makes noise and smoke and moves, after you start it up. Lets say you are driving around and your alternator QUITS. the amp meter, since it is wired in a 'NET' charge/discharge way, all of a sudden, swings from a positive charge to a SLIGHT discharge. Your ignition doesn't take many amps, and an otherwise good battery can run that ignition ALL day before going dead. And during that time, the voltage will still be high, like 12v. So the ammeter has just told you something a volt meter wouldn't. At the moment of alternator failure, the system voltage just won't change much.. at least not on a cruddy tractor volt meter that maybee lists 3 voltages and has lots of slashes, and with a jumpy needle on a machine that you drive around the farm.. seeing a volt difference just ain't telling you anything. The ammeter on the other hand swings negative. it just told you something you can use. You know right then you have a problem and need to fix it. Next. Lets say the alternator or generator is fine.. ( but another secret problem has occured ) Your volt meter is saying 14v or whatever it can read.. 12v plus some hash marks.. fine right? MAYBEE. Lets look at what your amp meter reads. Your ammeter is now for some reason reading twice as high as normal. Lets say your ammeter normally reads about +4 amps, after it has settled down from startup.. and that's about what it always reads. Now, suddenly, it is reading 8... BINGO! your amp meter has just told you something that your volt meter couldn't! You are needing more charge current for some reason. Since this is a NET charge / discharge system, and is ONLY telling you CHARGE into the battery, or DISCHARGE from the battery .. you KNOW ( amp meter TOLD YOU ).. that it is taking more amps all of a sudden to charge your battery. Prime cause of that are cells going bad. But why didn't your VOLT METER tell you this? Well.. your volt meter can only tell you one thing! voltage level. Lets look at why this DOESN"T help in this situation. Your alternator with automatic voltage regulator want's to keep the charge voltage at a set level. Lets call it 14.4v whatever will depend on a few things. Now. say it takes, after startup and everything is topped off, just a few amps to keep the battery charging.. no prob.. you are no where near your alternators capacity, so it pumps those electrons out to the battery. Now, say the battery looses a cell or 2.. all of a sudden, because of the near shorted cells, the electrical load jumps up.. but wait.. it's not a problem.. the alternator is STILL not at it's charging capacity, so it just pumps out even more electrons into that partially shorted battery in order to keep that magic VOLTAGE # stable. So there you are happily driving along reading your 12v plus a couple hash marks on your volt meter.. your battery has coughed up a lung, your charge current is much higher than normal.. but you don't know.. because the VOLT METER can't tell you that. Your alternator is capapble of charging enough to keep voltage up. Great right? WRONG! You turn the tractor off, then ten minutes later you need to move it. woops! battery is only at 8V now... alternator ain't charging with the engine off, thus now the battery is only at the level it can be with a couple shorted cells.. and there you are with the RR..RR..R..click.
Had you had an AMP meter, you would have KNOWN the CONDITION of the CHARGE SYSTEM, instead of JUST knowing the VOLTAGE level.
That's the big difference. The ammeter reading would have told you the battery was charging with higher than normal current, telling you there was a problem.
This sort of info is helpfull to know BEFORE you park that machine in the hard to get to spot to jump, or far away from tools or place to work on it... really... it told you to EXPECT a problem... the volt meter tells you AFTER you have the problem.
Which one do you want? Would you like to know about an issue as it happens and while happening and be able to analyze it? Or would you like to walk out to the dead tractor , try to start it, have it not start, then have the volt meter yell out.. OH yeah.. battery died yesterday while you were mowing.. but I couldn't tell you...
It's all about practicality, and understanding what your net Ammeter CAN actually tell you, if you listen.
Tim PloughNman Daley
Well-known Member
That's why in electrocutions it's the amps that get ya, not the volts.
H
HFJ
Guest
[i:becbfa9535][b:becbfa9535]"I swear moving electrons are like magic to 97% of the population."[/b:becbfa9535][/i:becbfa9535]
i'd like to think that on most days, anyway, i'm one of the 3%. nevertheless, there's still plenty of magic there
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
A hole lot of hog wash comparing flashlight bats to a car bat...
I had a chevy truck today that was putting out 15 amps at idle but the voltmeter read 12.18 volts... It was capable of more voltage but it was consuming it to keep it running. It had a bad alt I had amps :shock: WTF
Voltage fell to 7.5V while trying to crank the engine You started out with a low/bad battery that needed to be checked are charged did a amp meter tell you that instantly... NO.... If you had not had that info how long would it have taken you to check the voltage. How long would you have looked at the amp meter for direction.
You don't understand what you just wrote you are lost trying to compare readings,,, sorry its a no sale... :shock:
Three things to remember and you have not over complicated anything.
1) Key on engine off voltage
2) Battery voltage while cranking
3) Battery voltage ruining.
1) you determine battery state of charge
2) you determine battery health while under a load cranking
3) You determine correct voltage while in operation
You could use those three things to resolve are lead down the correct path for 99.9 % of the starting/charging questions asked here
Lets use a amp meter to answer those things to remember
1) HUMM lets go to 2
2) HUMMM lets go to 3
3) O yes my ball game amps well it depends.
The least used meter is a amp meter it is not needed unless you do a throw evaluation of the charging system to determine if it can output at max rating. More than likely that little dinky one on a N tractor dash is not gonna cut it...
If I see low voltage running below 14V and need to determine the alts heath well ell yell a load tester and a amp clamp come out. If I have slow cranking are a low battery I confirm the charging system is up to par and not at fraught.
That's not a simple tast for the average tractor driver and its not the over complicated comparison you wrote. Its just to muddy when its should be simple.
While on flashlight bats if you were going to diagnosis a flashlight
a voltmeter would also be the first tool of choice. The same tool you start with diagnosing your tractor electrical system.
The only practical reason I can come up with for a amp meter is if you have a adjustable generator and you need to adjust it for loads not intended for it.
Royse
Well-known Member
- Location
- Ionia County, Michigan
As you can see, no, there is not a consensus.
I have voltmeters in some and ammeters in others.
If you already have your tractor wired and working,
replacing the ammeter with another one is a direct swap.
If you replace it with a voltmeter you will need to make some
changes. They're not major changes, but not a direct swap.
An operator has to know how to read either one of them
before they are of any value at all.
I have voltmeters in some and ammeters in others.
If you already have your tractor wired and working,
replacing the ammeter with another one is a direct swap.
If you replace it with a voltmeter you will need to make some
changes. They're not major changes, but not a direct swap.
An operator has to know how to read either one of them
before they are of any value at all.
JWA
Member
- Location
- Somerville,TN
Yep, no consensus here. I installed a spare amperes meter that I had on hand. No rewiring and at least 50% of respondents agree. So I am at least half way correct. Thanks for everyone's learned opinion.
And the only practical reason I can see for a volt meter is to fill the hole in the dash!
Good example of a volt meter. Wife's vehicle. Started and ran fine. Then setting at a store with the AC running idling all of a sudden voltage drops off sharply and the engine dies. The alt had taken a dump and the volt meter had dropped to normal for that vehicle about 12 volt reading at idle with the AC on. Then in the space of about 30 seconds voltage dropped enough for the engine to die. Lucky I had jumper cables and my load tester in the vehicle. I might have assumed that the battery had crapped and replaced that first. But with the needed tools I was able to figure out the alt was bad, walk across the street to a parts store where I scored a new alt. Plus the manager of the parts store pulled around and gave me another jump once the new alt was in. The point is the voltage meter was of absolutely no help at all. In fact an idiot light glowing bright red would have been of more help!
So I'm running my tractor and a cell goes bad........what's the volt meter going to tell me as it's running? Nothing! I'm not going to know anything until I try to restart the tractor. Then it's going to tell me nothing that my own ears won't tell me! CLICK, CLICK, CLICK! Oh, I have a low voltage problem. Now I have to figure out if it's the battery, which may read charged 12+ volts but still have a bad cell, a bad connection or maybe a bad relay/starter. There all the voltage meter is going to tell me that there is an excessive voltage drop. But not why. HMMMM, bad cell? Bad starter? Direct short? Maybe even a spun bearing!
I really want to see this magical volt meter that's going to trouble shoot electrical problems for me! Bet that's one expensive meter :lol: :lol: :lol:
Rick
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
Y'all are coming up with some real-real d-o-o-z-i-e-s... I respect Sounders knowledge on electricity but Y'all are having a hard time with this application... I seriously doubt Y'all will ever be able to see a cell going bad are drop out even if you keep a eye dead on yer amp gauge...
My three steps simple and sound I can not see how anyone can argue it,,, what happens happens if you bat died on you, you missed it amp are volt meter most of the time there is a indicator even if its you ear. You missed it, it was not the voltmeters fraught...
My truck has a voltmeter from the factory its a pizz poor excuse for one. It never reads over 14V most of the time just shy of it I don't depend on it but have learned to at least take what is normal and apply it. The same could be said about a amp meter as they are even worst to lie.....
Really? Doozies? I've tested a lot of batteries that showed more than enough voltage to start a vehicle, that is until you actually try to start! Load tester finds that problem real quick. When you hit the key that volt meter with that battery shows a voltage drop but not why. It only show voltage and doesn't preform a load test. And I've replaced more than one battery on a car while working as a mechanic that showed 12+ volts on a meter but fail a load test. Some of those cars came in with new starters on them because the owner saw that they had 12 volt but had a no start. When the new starter didn't work they were in over their heads, would jump them off and bring em in. Most gauges on vehicles are cheap indicators, not true reading anyway.
Rick
Royse
Well-known Member
- Location
- Ionia County, Michigan
"So I am at least half way correct."
jwa, it's your tractor. If it works for you, you're 100% right.
jwa, it's your tractor. If it works for you, you're 100% right.
greed! Why is it necessary that everyone sees things the way that I do? Or that I see things they way that they do? :roll:(quoted from post at 00:18:42 11/30/16) "So I am at least half way correct."
jwa, it's your tractor. If it works for you, you're 100% right.
Geesh, If anybody is really concerned about it then use both, either one can't indicate every problem, and neither will both together. I like real gauges and assume most of us here probably do too, the problem is the majority of people don't care, they only need a light and a chime to tell them something is wrong.
Amp gauge usage is obsolete for most equipment and has been for a long time. They simply are not cost effective and the safety concerns of running heavy wires to the instrument cluster and back to the battery raise the potential for problems, especially in modern equipment that can see loads well in excess of 100 amps, even over 200 amps.
Amp gauge usage is obsolete for most equipment and has been for a long time. They simply are not cost effective and the safety concerns of running heavy wires to the instrument cluster and back to the battery raise the potential for problems, especially in modern equipment that can see loads well in excess of 100 amps, even over 200 amps.
Hey, Hobo is the one claiming that you NEED a voltage meter. I really don't care except that good info is put out. As far as responding to a no start post if you ask what the battery voltage is means absolutely nothing without a load test to prove that not only is the battery charged but also good. A charged battery that's bad is still bad! A volt meter isn't going to do a load test. Basically whatever it has it what it keeps for me. I have 2 boats with neither, 4 tractors with amp meters, 2 tractors with idiot lights, a TLB and dozer both with amp meters. Zero turn has a battery gauge as does the wife's vehicle. I use my multi meter and battery load tester as diagnostic tools. Plus I never shut something off that I can't reach with my battery charger/booster or with jumper cables.
If I'm running a tractor and I notice a drop in battery power indicated by a volt meter or the amp meter starts to show a discharge I know it's time to head in and figure out what's wrong. Heck if it was a glowing idiot light I'd know the same thing. That for some reason I have a charging issue.
Rick
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
You are missing the point its a indicator both are not a full blown fit's all tester. A voltmeter is a starting point the first weapon of choice to guide you in the direction you need to go.
Lets take what you just said
1) "I've tested a lot of batteries that showed more than enough voltage to start a vehicle, that is until you actually try to start!"
"Load tester finds that problem real quick"
Lets take this out we are not talking about load testers that's another tool needed once you determine the direction you need to go.
2)"When you hit the key that volt meter with that battery shows a voltage drop but not why."
Billy bob has both a voltmeter and a amp meter he's loaded for bear. Every day he starts his tractor it fires off life is good. He looks at both gauges the voltmeter is 14V and the amp meter is reading 30amps. After awhile the voltmeter reading is still 14V are so just were it needs to be but the amp gauge is at are near 2/4 amps on the positive side. One day he gets the dreaded click a quick look at his voltmeter KOEO (Key On Engine Off) and see's its just over 12V's its not 12.6 were a good battery should be. He looks at the amp gauge its reading 0 amps. Just his luck the engine stopped in a position were the points were open. If he had been lucky and it stopped with the points closed he would have seen -2 amps are so for whatever that info would have provided the amp meter is useless at this time.
He is confused why his ammeter did not provide any info he types a question on YT mag "My tractor will not crank" he spends the rest of the week making sure everything is clean bright and tight. He orders up some big hairy chested big as yer arm battery cables and in the process of removing the starter the armature comes out of the brush holder :twisted: He is consumed with tips he thought they were his fix all from heaven.
All in said and done he replaces everything including the battery it cranks
life is good...If Billy Bob would have just looked at what the voltmeter was telling him...
Billy Bob looks at the voltmeter while cranking it reads 7.5V while trying to crank he has just found the lead he needs. The voltage is way down he can then take out the tools needed to proceed to evaluate his issue. Neither is a complete diagnostic tool they are indicators.
Billy bob has both a voltmeter and a amp meter he's loaded for bear. Every day he starts his tractor it fires off life is good. He looks at both gauges the voltmeter is 14V and the amp meter is reading 30amps. After awhile the voltmeter reading is 13.5V are so just shy of were it needs to be but the amp gauge is at are near 2/4 amps on the positive side. One day he gets the dreaded click while cranking a quick look at his voltmeter KOEO (Key On Engine Off) and see's its just over 12V's its not 12.6 were a good battery should be. He looks at the amp gauge its reading 0 amps. Just his luck the engine stopped in a position were the points were open. If he had been lucky and it stopped with the points closed he would have seen -2 amps are so for whatever that info would have provided the amp meter is useless at this time.
He gets his info he has saved so he can interpret what he has read about a amp meter. He is in distress he knew he should have kept one eye on his amp gauge at all times, he missed his opportunity (don't we all). He charges the battery it checks good life is good. He continues to keep one eye on his amp meter as best he can tell it goes up after started and settles down. The battery must be good its not overcharging. A few weeks later the event repeats itself. WTF He reviews his amp meter notes he has been diligent what has he missed.
He missed his target voltage was low he was so consumed with amps no way he could have a charging system problem. He researched his issue and found his alternator belt was slipping. He adjusted his belt and his target voltage returned to just above 14V. Life is good...
Royse
Well-known Member
- Location
- Ionia County, Michigan
6V or 12V air compressor? :lol:
ngine driven, but I'm beginning to think I shouldn't have said anything, as I'm being inundated with e-mails telling me that:
1) a pressure gauge is the only way to go!
2) an air-flow meter is the only way to go!
3) a low pressure warning light is the only way to go!
:roll:
Ultradog MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Twin Cities
Maybe a pony motor?
(quoted from post at 12:15:23 11/30/16)
You are missing the point its a indicator both are not a full blown fit's all tester. A voltmeter is a starting point the first weapon of choice to guide you in the direction you need to go.
Lets take what you just said
1) "I've tested a lot of batteries that showed more than enough voltage to start a vehicle, that is until you actually try to start!"
"Load tester finds that problem real quick"
Lets take this out we are not talking about load testers that's another tool needed once you determine the direction you need to go.
2)"When you hit the key that volt meter with that battery shows a voltage drop but not why."
Billy bob has both a voltmeter and a amp meter he's loaded for bear. Every day he starts his tractor it fires off life is good. He looks at both gauges the voltmeter is 14V and the amp meter is reading 30amps. After awhile the voltmeter reading is still 14V are so just were it needs to be but the amp gauge is at are near 2/4 amps on the positive side. One day he gets the dreaded click a quick look at his voltmeter KOEO (Key On Engine Off) and see's its just over 12V's its not 12.6 were a good battery should be. He looks at the amp gauge its reading 0 amps. Just his luck the engine stopped in a position were the points were open. If he had been lucky and it stopped with the points closed he would have seen -2 amps are so for whatever that info would have provided the amp meter is useless at this time.
He is confused why his ammeter did not provide any info he types a question on YT mag "My tractor will not crank" he spends the rest of the week making sure everything is clean bright and tight. He orders up some big hairy chested big as yer arm battery cables and in the process of removing the starter the armature comes out of the brush holder :twisted: He is consumed with tips he thought they were his fix all from heaven.
All in said and done he replaces everything including the battery it cranks
If Billy Bob would have just looked at what the voltmeter was telling him...
Billy Bob looks at the voltmeter while cranking it reads 7.5V while trying to crank he has just found the lead he needs. The voltage is way down he can then take out the tools needed to proceed to evaluate his issue. Neither is a complete diagnostic tool they are indicators.
Billy bob has both a voltmeter and a amp meter he's loaded for bear. Every day he starts his tractor it fires off life is good. He looks at both gauges the voltmeter is 14V and the amp meter is reading 30amps. After awhile the voltmeter reading is 13.5V are so just shy of were it needs to be but the amp gauge is at are near 2/4 amps on the positive side. One day he gets the dreaded click while cranking a quick look at his voltmeter KOEO (Key On Engine Off) and see's its just over 12V's its not 12.6 were a good battery should be. He looks at the amp gauge its reading 0 amps. Just his luck the engine stopped in a position were the points were open. If he had been lucky and it stopped with the points closed he would have seen -2 amps are so for whatever that info would have provided the amp meter is useless at this time.
He gets his info he has saved so he can interpret what he has read about a amp meter. He is in distress he knew he should have kept one eye on his amp gauge at all times, he missed his opportunity (don't we all). He charges the battery it checks good life is good. He continues to keep one eye on his amp meter as best he can tell it goes up after started and settles down. The battery must be good its not overcharging. A few weeks later the event repeats itself. WTF He reviews his amp meter notes he has been diligent what has he missed.
He missed his target voltage was low he was so consumed with amps no way he could have a charging system problem. He researched his issue and found his alternator belt was slipping. He adjusted his belt and his target voltage returned to just above 14V. Life is good...
Talk about a doozie! That's one! Lets see, My tractor starts and the volt meter shows that it isn't putting out 14 or so volt BUT THE BELT IS SQUEALING LIKE A STUCK PIG so I adjust the belt tension that I missed when I was checking the oil and such BEFORE EVEN TRYING TO START IT! Again the ears have it! Guess what! If the belt is slipping just a little, say enough to lose 100-150 RPMS at PTO throttle, it's still going to put out 14 or so volts because it will put out that much once the system is excited at just above slow idle! At the lower RPMs it won't put out as much amperage but it's still going to produce 14 or so volts! It doesn't put out variable voltage!
Rick
Royse
Well-known Member
- Location
- Ionia County, Michigan
With an engine driven pump, one would have to make sure there
were no air leaks or the tractor wouldn't start after setting a while.
Which gauge/meter would best indicate that loss?
Maybe we need a new post on the best thread sealant?
Nah, my head hurts too. Got any hills around?
Park it at the top and roll start it.
Don't forget to turn the key on when you do.
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
(quoted from post at 06:21:31 12/01/16)(quoted from post at 12:15:23 11/30/16)
You are missing the point its a indicator both are not a full blown fit's all tester. A voltmeter is a starting point the first weapon of choice to guide you in the direction you need to go.
Lets take what you just said
1) "I've tested a lot of batteries that showed more than enough voltage to start a vehicle, that is until you actually try to start!"
"Load tester finds that problem real quick"
Lets take this out we are not talking about load testers that's another tool needed once you determine the direction you need to go.
2)"When you hit the key that volt meter with that battery shows a voltage drop but not why."
Billy bob has both a voltmeter and a amp meter he's loaded for bear. Every day he starts his tractor it fires off life is good. He looks at both gauges the voltmeter is 14V and the amp meter is reading 30amps. After awhile the voltmeter reading is still 14V are so just were it needs to be but the amp gauge is at are near 2/4 amps on the positive side. One day he gets the dreaded click a quick look at his voltmeter KOEO (Key On Engine Off) and see's its just over 12V's its not 12.6 were a good battery should be. He looks at the amp gauge its reading 0 amps. Just his luck the engine stopped in a position were the points were open. If he had been lucky and it stopped with the points closed he would have seen -2 amps are so for whatever that info would have provided the amp meter is useless at this time.
He is confused why his ammeter did not provide any info he types a question on YT mag "My tractor will not crank" he spends the rest of the week making sure everything is clean bright and tight. He orders up some big hairy chested big as yer arm battery cables and in the process of removing the starter the armature comes out of the brush holder :twisted: He is consumed with tips he thought they were his fix all from heaven.
All in said and done he replaces everything including the battery it cranks
If Billy Bob would have just looked at what the voltmeter was telling him...
Billy Bob looks at the voltmeter while cranking it reads 7.5V while trying to crank he has just found the lead he needs. The voltage is way down he can then take out the tools needed to proceed to evaluate his issue. Neither is a complete diagnostic tool they are indicators.
Billy bob has both a voltmeter and a amp meter he's loaded for bear. Every day he starts his tractor it fires off life is good. He looks at both gauges the voltmeter is 14V and the amp meter is reading 30amps. After awhile the voltmeter reading is 13.5V are so just shy of were it needs to be but the amp gauge is at are near 2/4 amps on the positive side. One day he gets the dreaded click while cranking a quick look at his voltmeter KOEO (Key On Engine Off) and see's its just over 12V's its not 12.6 were a good battery should be. He looks at the amp gauge its reading 0 amps. Just his luck the engine stopped in a position were the points were open. If he had been lucky and it stopped with the points closed he would have seen -2 amps are so for whatever that info would have provided the amp meter is useless at this time.
He gets his info he has saved so he can interpret what he has read about a amp meter. He is in distress he knew he should have kept one eye on his amp gauge at all times, he missed his opportunity (don't we all). He charges the battery it checks good life is good. He continues to keep one eye on his amp meter as best he can tell it goes up after started and settles down. The battery must be good its not overcharging. A few weeks later the event repeats itself. WTF He reviews his amp meter notes he has been diligent what has he missed.
He missed his target voltage was low he was so consumed with amps no way he could have a charging system problem. He researched his issue and found his alternator belt was slipping. He adjusted his belt and his target voltage returned to just above 14V. Life is good...
Talk about a doozie! That's one! Lets see, My tractor starts and the volt meter shows that it isn't putting out 14 or so volt BUT THE BELT IS SQUEALING LIKE A STUCK PIG so I adjust the belt tension that I missed when I was checking the oil and such BEFORE EVEN TRYING TO START IT! Again the ears have it! Guess what! If the belt is slipping just a little, say enough to lose 100-150 RPMS at PTO throttle, it's still going to put out 14 or so volts because it will put out that much once the system is excited at just above slow idle! At the lower RPMs it won't put out as much amperage but it's still going to produce 14 or so volts! It doesn't put out variable voltage!
Rick
You don't understand it do you. As the saying goes, “Old habits die hard.” I don't see why I respond to your hog wash like any amp meter lubber you are lost in time...
http://www.underhoodservice.com/alt...ringing-change/?eid=284855983&bid=1601488
Briar Hill Brittanys
Well-known Member
- Location
- Near Jasper, MO
What gauge are you going to put in, PSI or CFH? :lol:
(quoted from post at 18:09:15 11/30/16)(quoted from post at 06:21:31 12/01/16)(quoted from post at 12:15:23 11/30/16)
You are missing the point its a indicator both are not a full blown fit's all tester. A voltmeter is a starting point the first weapon of choice to guide you in the direction you need to go.
Lets take what you just said
1) "I've tested a lot of batteries that showed more than enough voltage to start a vehicle, that is until you actually try to start!"
"Load tester finds that problem real quick"
Lets take this out we are not talking about load testers that's another tool needed once you determine the direction you need to go.
2)"When you hit the key that volt meter with that battery shows a voltage drop but not why."
Billy bob has both a voltmeter and a amp meter he's loaded for bear. Every day he starts his tractor it fires off life is good. He looks at both gauges the voltmeter is 14V and the amp meter is reading 30amps. After awhile the voltmeter reading is still 14V are so just were it needs to be but the amp gauge is at are near 2/4 amps on the positive side. One day he gets the dreaded click a quick look at his voltmeter KOEO (Key On Engine Off) and see's its just over 12V's its not 12.6 were a good battery should be. He looks at the amp gauge its reading 0 amps. Just his luck the engine stopped in a position were the points were open. If he had been lucky and it stopped with the points closed he would have seen -2 amps are so for whatever that info would have provided the amp meter is useless at this time.
He is confused why his ammeter did not provide any info he types a question on YT mag "My tractor will not crank" he spends the rest of the week making sure everything is clean bright and tight. He orders up some big hairy chested big as yer arm battery cables and in the process of removing the starter the armature comes out of the brush holder :twisted: He is consumed with tips he thought they were his fix all from heaven.
All in said and done he replaces everything including the battery it cranks
If Billy Bob would have just looked at what the voltmeter was telling him...
Billy Bob looks at the voltmeter while cranking it reads 7.5V while trying to crank he has just found the lead he needs. The voltage is way down he can then take out the tools needed to proceed to evaluate his issue. Neither is a complete diagnostic tool they are indicators.
Billy bob has both a voltmeter and a amp meter he's loaded for bear. Every day he starts his tractor it fires off life is good. He looks at both gauges the voltmeter is 14V and the amp meter is reading 30amps. After awhile the voltmeter reading is 13.5V are so just shy of were it needs to be but the amp gauge is at are near 2/4 amps on the positive side. One day he gets the dreaded click while cranking a quick look at his voltmeter KOEO (Key On Engine Off) and see's its just over 12V's its not 12.6 were a good battery should be. He looks at the amp gauge its reading 0 amps. Just his luck the engine stopped in a position were the points were open. If he had been lucky and it stopped with the points closed he would have seen -2 amps are so for whatever that info would have provided the amp meter is useless at this time.
He gets his info he has saved so he can interpret what he has read about a amp meter. He is in distress he knew he should have kept one eye on his amp gauge at all times, he missed his opportunity (don't we all). He charges the battery it checks good life is good. He continues to keep one eye on his amp meter as best he can tell it goes up after started and settles down. The battery must be good its not overcharging. A few weeks later the event repeats itself. WTF He reviews his amp meter notes he has been diligent what has he missed.
He missed his target voltage was low he was so consumed with amps no way he could have a charging system problem. He researched his issue and found his alternator belt was slipping. He adjusted his belt and his target voltage returned to just above 14V. Life is good...
Talk about a doozie! That's one! Lets see, My tractor starts and the volt meter shows that it isn't putting out 14 or so volt BUT THE BELT IS SQUEALING LIKE A STUCK PIG so I adjust the belt tension that I missed when I was checking the oil and such BEFORE EVEN TRYING TO START IT! Again the ears have it! Guess what! If the belt is slipping just a little, say enough to lose 100-150 RPMS at PTO throttle, it's still going to put out 14 or so volts because it will put out that much once the system is excited at just above slow idle! At the lower RPMs it won't put out as much amperage but it's still going to produce 14 or so volts! It doesn't put out variable voltage!
Rick
You don't understand it do you. As the saying goes, “Old habits die hard.” I don't see why I respond to your hog wash like any amp meter lubber you are lost in time...
http://www.underhoodservice.com/alt...ringing-change/?eid=284855983&bid=1601488
NO, you are the one who is failing to understand that for the average joe and that includes a lot of tractor guys, it doesn't matter what they have in the dash! If there is a problem it's much easier to diagnose that problem with the proper tools. For the average joe an idiot light is good enough! I myself don't see enough advantage from one to another to justify the expense of converting. That is what I'm saying. You are the one making claims about what a great diagnostic tool they allegedly are, so great in fact that professional mechanics STILL USE OTHER DIAGNOSTIC TOOLS instead of relying of the OEM gauge. So it's like the amp meter, something to plug a hole in the dash!
I do have a question for you though seeing as battery voltage is so important to you. What does it matter if I ask you a question about a starting issue where I got the battery voltage reading from? Could be from a dash mounted gauge (that the owner didn't look at and they have to get back to you) a multi-meter or a battery tester. Could be I can tell you the battery is fully charged because it's had the charger on it! You still can't tell me why I have a no start situation based solely on battery voltage. OK, I have 13+ volts, engine spins over fine. No spark because I forgot to remount the distributer cause I'm getting old! All the battery voltage readings in the world are not going to diagnose most problems, even problems with the charging system any better than an amp meter or idiot light for that matter.
Rick
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
(quoted from post at 08:30:36 12/01/16)(quoted from post at 18:09:15 11/30/16)(quoted from post at 06:21:31 12/01/16)(quoted from post at 12:15:23 11/30/16)
You are missing the point its a indicator both are not a full blown fit's all tester. A voltmeter is a starting point the first weapon of choice to guide you in the direction you need to go.
Lets take what you just said
1) "I've tested a lot of batteries that showed more than enough voltage to start a vehicle, that is until you actually try to start!"
"Load tester finds that problem real quick"
Lets take this out we are not talking about load testers that's another tool needed once you determine the direction you need to go.
2)"When you hit the key that volt meter with that battery shows a voltage drop but not why."
Billy bob has both a voltmeter and a amp meter he's loaded for bear. Every day he starts his tractor it fires off life is good. He looks at both gauges the voltmeter is 14V and the amp meter is reading 30amps. After awhile the voltmeter reading is still 14V are so just were it needs to be but the amp gauge is at are near 2/4 amps on the positive side. One day he gets the dreaded click a quick look at his voltmeter KOEO (Key On Engine Off) and see's its just over 12V's its not 12.6 were a good battery should be. He looks at the amp gauge its reading 0 amps. Just his luck the engine stopped in a position were the points were open. If he had been lucky and it stopped with the points closed he would have seen -2 amps are so for whatever that info would have provided the amp meter is useless at this time.
He is confused why his ammeter did not provide any info he types a question on YT mag "My tractor will not crank" he spends the rest of the week making sure everything is clean bright and tight. He orders up some big hairy chested big as yer arm battery cables and in the process of removing the starter the armature comes out of the brush holder :twisted: He is consumed with tips he thought they were his fix all from heaven.
All in said and done he replaces everything including the battery it cranks
If Billy Bob would have just looked at what the voltmeter was telling him...
Billy Bob looks at the voltmeter while cranking it reads 7.5V while trying to crank he has just found the lead he needs. The voltage is way down he can then take out the tools needed to proceed to evaluate his issue. Neither is a complete diagnostic tool they are indicators.
Billy bob has both a voltmeter and a amp meter he's loaded for bear. Every day he starts his tractor it fires off life is good. He looks at both gauges the voltmeter is 14V and the amp meter is reading 30amps. After awhile the voltmeter reading is 13.5V are so just shy of were it needs to be but the amp gauge is at are near 2/4 amps on the positive side. One day he gets the dreaded click while cranking a quick look at his voltmeter KOEO (Key On Engine Off) and see's its just over 12V's its not 12.6 were a good battery should be. He looks at the amp gauge its reading 0 amps. Just his luck the engine stopped in a position were the points were open. If he had been lucky and it stopped with the points closed he would have seen -2 amps are so for whatever that info would have provided the amp meter is useless at this time.
He gets his info he has saved so he can interpret what he has read about a amp meter. He is in distress he knew he should have kept one eye on his amp gauge at all times, he missed his opportunity (don't we all). He charges the battery it checks good life is good. He continues to keep one eye on his amp meter as best he can tell it goes up after started and settles down. The battery must be good its not overcharging. A few weeks later the event repeats itself. WTF He reviews his amp meter notes he has been diligent what has he missed.
He missed his target voltage was low he was so consumed with amps no way he could have a charging system problem. He researched his issue and found his alternator belt was slipping. He adjusted his belt and his target voltage returned to just above 14V. Life is good...
Talk about a doozie! That's one! Lets see, My tractor starts and the volt meter shows that it isn't putting out 14 or so volt BUT THE BELT IS SQUEALING LIKE A STUCK PIG so I adjust the belt tension that I missed when I was checking the oil and such BEFORE EVEN TRYING TO START IT! Again the ears have it! Guess what! If the belt is slipping just a little, say enough to lose 100-150 RPMS at PTO throttle, it's still going to put out 14 or so volts because it will put out that much once the system is excited at just above slow idle! At the lower RPMs it won't put out as much amperage but it's still going to produce 14 or so volts! It doesn't put out variable voltage!
Rick
You don't understand it do you. As the saying goes, “Old habits die hard.” I don't see why I respond to your hog wash like any amp meter lubber you are lost in time...
http://www.underhoodservice.com/alt...ringing-change/?eid=284855983&bid=1601488
NO, you are the one who is failing to understand that for the average joe and that includes a lot of tractor guys, it doesn't matter what they have in the dash! If there is a problem it's much easier to diagnose that problem with the proper tools. For the average joe an idiot light is good enough! I myself don't see enough advantage from one to another to justify the expense of converting. That is what I'm saying. You are the one making claims about what a great diagnostic tool they allegedly are, so great in fact that professional mechanics STILL USE OTHER DIAGNOSTIC TOOLS instead of relying of the OEM gauge. So it's like the amp meter, something to plug a hole in the dash!
I do have a question for you though seeing as battery voltage is so important to you. What does it matter if I ask you a question about a starting issue where I got the battery voltage reading from? Could be from a dash mounted gauge (that the owner didn't look at and they have to get back to you) a multi-meter or a battery tester. Could be I can tell you the battery is fully charged because it's had the charger on it! You still can't tell me why I have a no start situation based solely on battery voltage. OK, I have 13+ volts, engine spins over fine. No spark because I forgot to remount the distributer cause I'm getting old! All the battery voltage readings in the world are not going to diagnose most problems, even problems with the charging system any better than an amp meter or idiot light for that matter.
Rick
OK, I have 13+ volts, engine spins over fine. YES it did you just confirmed you have good battery voltage KOEO and while cranking NOW you can move on to other systems in the net work.
The battery is the heart of the electrical system you first confirm its good and you just did but do not understand it. You are in amp meter mode what did the amp meter tell you about the battery and starter at that time.
You like other amp meter lubbers want to involve other systems in the network to include it as a excuse to put it above what information is the basics of the heart of the system the BATTERY.
Lets try to look at it another way, Most fail at this also.
I have a EFI engine it wont start I have confirmed my battery is good it cranks over good and I have spark I pushed on the test port it squirts fuel. I used a spark tester to confirm I have good spark I used a noid light to confirm the ECM is firing the injectors.
Mechanic A says to run a compression test low compression could be your problem.
Mechanic B says to install a fuel pressure gauge and confirm fuel pressure.
The correct answer is B you can have flow (amps) but low pressure (Volts)
I am sure you understand that but I can not understand why amp meter lubbers fight it... I am sure if you had a air starter you would understand it needs pressure. If either is not doing its job pressure is the easiest thing to check.
Its no different in a charging starting system pressure ...volts" is the easiest thing to check you do not have to pull your amp meter lubber book out to de-chiffer it... All roads will get you there The voltage reading will lead you down the shortest road to a confirmed kill....
(quoted from post at 06:14:17 12/01/16)(quoted from post at 08:30:36 12/01/16)(quoted from post at 18:09:15 11/30/16)(quoted from post at 06:21:31 12/01/16)(quoted from post at 12:15:23 11/30/16)
You are missing the point its a indicator both are not a full blown fit's all tester. A voltmeter is a starting point the first weapon of choice to guide you in the direction you need to go.
Lets take what you just said
1) "I've tested a lot of batteries that showed more than enough voltage to start a vehicle, that is until you actually try to start!"
"Load tester finds that problem real quick"
Lets take this out we are not talking about load testers that's another tool needed once you determine the direction you need to go.
2)"When you hit the key that volt meter with that battery shows a voltage drop but not why."
Billy bob has both a voltmeter and a amp meter he's loaded for bear. Every day he starts his tractor it fires off life is good. He looks at both gauges the voltmeter is 14V and the amp meter is reading 30amps. After awhile the voltmeter reading is still 14V are so just were it needs to be but the amp gauge is at are near 2/4 amps on the positive side. One day he gets the dreaded click a quick look at his voltmeter KOEO (Key On Engine Off) and see's its just over 12V's its not 12.6 were a good battery should be. He looks at the amp gauge its reading 0 amps. Just his luck the engine stopped in a position were the points were open. If he had been lucky and it stopped with the points closed he would have seen -2 amps are so for whatever that info would have provided the amp meter is useless at this time.
He is confused why his ammeter did not provide any info he types a question on YT mag "My tractor will not crank" he spends the rest of the week making sure everything is clean bright and tight. He orders up some big hairy chested big as yer arm battery cables and in the process of removing the starter the armature comes out of the brush holder :twisted: He is consumed with tips he thought they were his fix all from heaven.
All in said and done he replaces everything including the battery it cranks
If Billy Bob would have just looked at what the voltmeter was telling him...
Billy Bob looks at the voltmeter while cranking it reads 7.5V while trying to crank he has just found the lead he needs. The voltage is way down he can then take out the tools needed to proceed to evaluate his issue. Neither is a complete diagnostic tool they are indicators.
Billy bob has both a voltmeter and a amp meter he's loaded for bear. Every day he starts his tractor it fires off life is good. He looks at both gauges the voltmeter is 14V and the amp meter is reading 30amps. After awhile the voltmeter reading is 13.5V are so just shy of were it needs to be but the amp gauge is at are near 2/4 amps on the positive side. One day he gets the dreaded click while cranking a quick look at his voltmeter KOEO (Key On Engine Off) and see's its just over 12V's its not 12.6 were a good battery should be. He looks at the amp gauge its reading 0 amps. Just his luck the engine stopped in a position were the points were open. If he had been lucky and it stopped with the points closed he would have seen -2 amps are so for whatever that info would have provided the amp meter is useless at this time.
He gets his info he has saved so he can interpret what he has read about a amp meter. He is in distress he knew he should have kept one eye on his amp gauge at all times, he missed his opportunity (don't we all). He charges the battery it checks good life is good. He continues to keep one eye on his amp meter as best he can tell it goes up after started and settles down. The battery must be good its not overcharging. A few weeks later the event repeats itself. WTF He reviews his amp meter notes he has been diligent what has he missed.
He missed his target voltage was low he was so consumed with amps no way he could have a charging system problem. He researched his issue and found his alternator belt was slipping. He adjusted his belt and his target voltage returned to just above 14V. Life is good...
Talk about a doozie! That's one! Lets see, My tractor starts and the volt meter shows that it isn't putting out 14 or so volt BUT THE BELT IS SQUEALING LIKE A STUCK PIG so I adjust the belt tension that I missed when I was checking the oil and such BEFORE EVEN TRYING TO START IT! Again the ears have it! Guess what! If the belt is slipping just a little, say enough to lose 100-150 RPMS at PTO throttle, it's still going to put out 14 or so volts because it will put out that much once the system is excited at just above slow idle! At the lower RPMs it won't put out as much amperage but it's still going to produce 14 or so volts! It doesn't put out variable voltage!
Rick
You don't understand it do you. As the saying goes, “Old habits die hard.” I don't see why I respond to your hog wash like any amp meter lubber you are lost in time...
http://www.underhoodservice.com/alt...ringing-change/?eid=284855983&bid=1601488
NO, you are the one who is failing to understand that for the average joe and that includes a lot of tractor guys, it doesn't matter what they have in the dash! If there is a problem it's much easier to diagnose that problem with the proper tools. For the average joe an idiot light is good enough! I myself don't see enough advantage from one to another to justify the expense of converting. That is what I'm saying. You are the one making claims about what a great diagnostic tool they allegedly are, so great in fact that professional mechanics STILL USE OTHER DIAGNOSTIC TOOLS instead of relying of the OEM gauge. So it's like the amp meter, something to plug a hole in the dash!
I do have a question for you though seeing as battery voltage is so important to you. What does it matter if I ask you a question about a starting issue where I got the battery voltage reading from? Could be from a dash mounted gauge (that the owner didn't look at and they have to get back to you) a multi-meter or a battery tester. Could be I can tell you the battery is fully charged because it's had the charger on it! You still can't tell me why I have a no start situation based solely on battery voltage. OK, I have 13+ volts, engine spins over fine. No spark because I forgot to remount the distributer cause I'm getting old! All the battery voltage readings in the world are not going to diagnose most problems, even problems with the charging system any better than an amp meter or idiot light for that matter.
Rick
OK, I have 13+ volts, engine spins over fine. YES it did you just confirmed you have good battery voltage KOEO and while cranking NOW you can move on to other systems in the net work.
The battery is the heart of the electrical system you first confirm its good and you just did but do not understand it. You are in amp meter mode what did the amp meter tell you about the battery and starter at that time.
You like other amp meter lubbers want to involve other systems in the network to include it as a excuse to put it above what information is the basics of the heart of the system the BATTERY.
Lets try to look at it another way, Most fail at this also.
I have a EFI engine it wont start I have confirmed my battery is good it cranks over good and I have spark I pushed on the test port it squirts fuel. I used a spark tester to confirm I have good spark I used a noid light to confirm the ECM is firing the injectors.
Mechanic A says to run a compression test low compression could be your problem.
Mechanic B says to install a fuel pressure gauge and confirm fuel pressure.
The correct answer is B you can have flow (amps) but low pressure (Volts)
I am sure you understand that but I can not understand why amp meter lubbers fight it... I am sure if you had a air starter you would understand it needs pressure. If either is not doing its job pressure is the easiest thing to check.
Its no different in a charging starting system pressure ...volts" is the easiest thing to check you do not have to pull your amp meter lubber book out to de-chiffer it... All roads will get you there The voltage reading will lead you down the shortest road to a confirmed kill....
OK, you are looking at this thought the eyes of a user. I'm looking at it through the eyes of a shop mechanic. Someone brings a car/truck in with a no start problem and you don't have the ability to monitor it as it runs. Maybe one in a hundred can tell you what the battery voltage was before they ran the battery flat as it sits now. Maybe one in a hundred can tell you how many amps it was charging last time it ran if equipped with an amp meter. So you get it in the bay, put the charger on it because the battery is flat and work on it from there.
Heck we had more than one customer bring in a vehicle with an engine knock with the oil pressure gauge not reading at all or the idiot light on. "I drove it in cause it's cold and I didn't want to walk"! I've actually had a customer tell me that! Standing there with a cell phone in their hand!
Like I've said I've tested more than one battery that according to the gauge had more than 12 volts but had a shorted cell and didn't have the amps needed to crank the engine. Like sound guy said, I can take flashlight batteries and string em together and come up with 12 volts. Voltage and amps work together to crank an engine. Takes both to spin that starter.
Believe it or not I've worked on ones that the battery connections were so dirty that the system couldn't recharge the battery. Owner had been jump starting it. Once running the alternator provided enough power to run the various systems. Others with new cables that were purchased from the cheapest source and bad out of the package. Put more than one "new" reman starter or alternator on that was bad out of the box too.
Heck I know from setting in the car with it idling, heater/AC on that the battery gauge will go from about 14 volts to just over 12 in just a few minutes. Most people can't because they are so busy on their cell phones texting they haven't looked at the dash sense putting it in park, some even while driving........ That person brings or more likely has their vehicle towed in and it's move it inside, pop the hood, put the charger on it and start the diagnostic process that doesn't include looking at dash gauges. Heck you wouldn't trust the dash oil pressure gauge if it registered low but there were no indications it had an oil problem other than the gauge. You would put another gauge on it and test.
Rick
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
(quoted from post at 21:03:00 12/01/16)(quoted from post at 06:14:17 12/01/16)(quoted from post at 08:30:36 12/01/16)(quoted from post at 18:09:15 11/30/16)(quoted from post at 06:21:31 12/01/16)(quoted from post at 12:15:23 11/30/16)
You are missing the point its a indicator both are not a full blown fit's all tester. A voltmeter is a starting point the first weapon of choice to guide you in the direction you need to go.
Lets take what you just said
1) "I've tested a lot of batteries that showed more than enough voltage to start a vehicle, that is until you actually try to start!"
"Load tester finds that problem real quick"
Lets take this out we are not talking about load testers that's another tool needed once you determine the direction you need to go.
2)"When you hit the key that volt meter with that battery shows a voltage drop but not why."
Billy bob has both a voltmeter and a amp meter he's loaded for bear. Every day he starts his tractor it fires off life is good. He looks at both gauges the voltmeter is 14V and the amp meter is reading 30amps. After awhile the voltmeter reading is still 14V are so just were it needs to be but the amp gauge is at are near 2/4 amps on the positive side. One day he gets the dreaded click a quick look at his voltmeter KOEO (Key On Engine Off) and see's its just over 12V's its not 12.6 were a good battery should be. He looks at the amp gauge its reading 0 amps. Just his luck the engine stopped in a position were the points were open. If he had been lucky and it stopped with the points closed he would have seen -2 amps are so for whatever that info would have provided the amp meter is useless at this time.
He is confused why his ammeter did not provide any info he types a question on YT mag "My tractor will not crank" he spends the rest of the week making sure everything is clean bright and tight. He orders up some big hairy chested big as yer arm battery cables and in the process of removing the starter the armature comes out of the brush holder :twisted: He is consumed with tips he thought they were his fix all from heaven.
All in said and done he replaces everything including the battery it cranks
If Billy Bob would have just looked at what the voltmeter was telling him...
Billy Bob looks at the voltmeter while cranking it reads 7.5V while trying to crank he has just found the lead he needs. The voltage is way down he can then take out the tools needed to proceed to evaluate his issue. Neither is a complete diagnostic tool they are indicators.
Billy bob has both a voltmeter and a amp meter he's loaded for bear. Every day he starts his tractor it fires off life is good. He looks at both gauges the voltmeter is 14V and the amp meter is reading 30amps. After awhile the voltmeter reading is 13.5V are so just shy of were it needs to be but the amp gauge is at are near 2/4 amps on the positive side. One day he gets the dreaded click while cranking a quick look at his voltmeter KOEO (Key On Engine Off) and see's its just over 12V's its not 12.6 were a good battery should be. He looks at the amp gauge its reading 0 amps. Just his luck the engine stopped in a position were the points were open. If he had been lucky and it stopped with the points closed he would have seen -2 amps are so for whatever that info would have provided the amp meter is useless at this time.
He gets his info he has saved so he can interpret what he has read about a amp meter. He is in distress he knew he should have kept one eye on his amp gauge at all times, he missed his opportunity (don't we all). He charges the battery it checks good life is good. He continues to keep one eye on his amp meter as best he can tell it goes up after started and settles down. The battery must be good its not overcharging. A few weeks later the event repeats itself. WTF He reviews his amp meter notes he has been diligent what has he missed.
He missed his target voltage was low he was so consumed with amps no way he could have a charging system problem. He researched his issue and found his alternator belt was slipping. He adjusted his belt and his target voltage returned to just above 14V. Life is good...
Talk about a doozie! That's one! Lets see, My tractor starts and the volt meter shows that it isn't putting out 14 or so volt BUT THE BELT IS SQUEALING LIKE A STUCK PIG so I adjust the belt tension that I missed when I was checking the oil and such BEFORE EVEN TRYING TO START IT! Again the ears have it! Guess what! If the belt is slipping just a little, say enough to lose 100-150 RPMS at PTO throttle, it's still going to put out 14 or so volts because it will put out that much once the system is excited at just above slow idle! At the lower RPMs it won't put out as much amperage but it's still going to produce 14 or so volts! It doesn't put out variable voltage!
Rick
You don't understand it do you. As the saying goes, “Old habits die hard.” I don't see why I respond to your hog wash like any amp meter lubber you are lost in time...
http://www.underhoodservice.com/alt...ringing-change/?eid=284855983&bid=1601488
NO, you are the one who is failing to understand that for the average joe and that includes a lot of tractor guys, it doesn't matter what they have in the dash! If there is a problem it's much easier to diagnose that problem with the proper tools. For the average joe an idiot light is good enough! I myself don't see enough advantage from one to another to justify the expense of converting. That is what I'm saying. You are the one making claims about what a great diagnostic tool they allegedly are, so great in fact that professional mechanics STILL USE OTHER DIAGNOSTIC TOOLS instead of relying of the OEM gauge. So it's like the amp meter, something to plug a hole in the dash!
I do have a question for you though seeing as battery voltage is so important to you. What does it matter if I ask you a question about a starting issue where I got the battery voltage reading from? Could be from a dash mounted gauge (that the owner didn't look at and they have to get back to you) a multi-meter or a battery tester. Could be I can tell you the battery is fully charged because it's had the charger on it! You still can't tell me why I have a no start situation based solely on battery voltage. OK, I have 13+ volts, engine spins over fine. No spark because I forgot to remount the distributer cause I'm getting old! All the battery voltage readings in the world are not going to diagnose most problems, even problems with the charging system any better than an amp meter or idiot light for that matter.
Rick
OK, I have 13+ volts, engine spins over fine. YES it did you just confirmed you have good battery voltage KOEO and while cranking NOW you can move on to other systems in the net work.
The battery is the heart of the electrical system you first confirm its good and you just did but do not understand it. You are in amp meter mode what did the amp meter tell you about the battery and starter at that time.
You like other amp meter lubbers want to involve other systems in the network to include it as a excuse to put it above what information is the basics of the heart of the system the BATTERY.
Lets try to look at it another way, Most fail at this also.
I have a EFI engine it wont start I have confirmed my battery is good it cranks over good and I have spark I pushed on the test port it squirts fuel. I used a spark tester to confirm I have good spark I used a noid light to confirm the ECM is firing the injectors.
Mechanic A says to run a compression test low compression could be your problem.
Mechanic B says to install a fuel pressure gauge and confirm fuel pressure.
The correct answer is B you can have flow (amps) but low pressure (Volts)
I am sure you understand that but I can not understand why amp meter lubbers fight it... I am sure if you had a air starter you would understand it needs pressure. If either is not doing its job pressure is the easiest thing to check.
Its no different in a charging starting system pressure ...volts" is the easiest thing to check you do not have to pull your amp meter lubber book out to de-chiffer it... All roads will get you there The voltage reading will lead you down the shortest road to a confirmed kill....
OK, you are looking at this thought the eyes of a user. I'm looking at it through the eyes of a shop mechanic. Someone brings a car/truck in with a no start problem and you don't have the ability to monitor it as it runs. Maybe one in a hundred can tell you what the battery voltage was before they ran the battery flat as it sits now. Maybe one in a hundred can tell you how many amps it was charging last time it ran if equipped with an amp meter. So you get it in the bay, put the charger on it because the battery is flat and work on it from there.
Heck we had more than one customer bring in a vehicle with an engine knock with the oil pressure gauge not reading at all or the idiot light on. "I drove it in cause it's cold and I didn't want to walk"! I've actually had a customer tell me that! Standing there with a cell phone in their hand!
Like I've said I've tested more than one battery that according to the gauge had more than 12 volts but had a shorted cell and didn't have the amps needed to crank the engine. Like sound guy said, I can take flashlight batteries and string em together and come up with 12 volts. Voltage and amps work together to crank an engine. Takes both to spin that starter.
Believe it or not I've worked on ones that the battery connections were so dirty that the system couldn't recharge the battery. Owner had been jump starting it. Once running the alternator provided enough power to run the various systems. Others with new cables that were purchased from the cheapest source and bad out of the package. Put more than one "new" reman starter or alternator on that was bad out of the box too.
Heck I know from setting in the car with it idling, heater/AC on that the battery gauge will go from about 14 volts to just over 12 in just a few minutes. Most people can't because they are so busy on their cell phones texting they haven't looked at the dash sense putting it in park, some even while driving........ That person brings or more likely has their vehicle towed in and it's move it inside, pop the hood, put the charger on it and start the diagnostic process that doesn't include looking at dash gauges. Heck you wouldn't trust the dash oil pressure gauge if it registered low but there were no indications it had an oil problem other than the gauge. You would put another gauge on it and test.
Rick
"OK, you are looking at this thought the eyes of a user. I'm looking at it through the eyes of a shop mechanic."
There is no difference even if the bat was dead after you charged it you used a voltmeter in the "process" to determine it was good. Yes under normal operating failers the voltmeter will lead you down the shortest road you need to take if a amp meter is needed its part of the process after the fact.
"Like I've said I've tested more than one battery that according to the gauge had more than 12 volts but had a shorted cell and didn't have the amps needed to crank the engine"
A voltmeter hooked to the battery while cranking would confirm that its a poor boys load test and will pick out most low charged battery's are confirm a kill...( I know its not a replacement for a load tester but will get you by in a pinch) Question don't you use a voltmeter when load testing a battery. You apply the load and read the volt meter don't you. The average starter will pull 150 amps some more that's your poor boys load tester.
"I can take flashlight batteries and string em together and come up with 12 volts."
Congratulations it has nuttin to do with a automotive starting system. I suspect its in the amp meter lubbers code book I have never read it
... I don't have to read it to know to diagnosis a flash light a voltmeter would be my tool of choice. While we on on flashlight it does make for a good example on how to test electrical circuits.https://www.motor.com/magazine-summary/street-smarts-electric-avenue/
"Believe it or not I've worked on ones that the battery connections were so dirty that the system couldn't recharge the battery"
A voltmeter would have been the tool of choice to diagnosis a poor connection. Read up on voltage drop testing.
"Most people can't because they are so busy on their cell phones texting they haven't looked at the dash sense putting it in park, some even while driving........"
That's why I get the big bucks, it provides me with the money to fund my tool addiction
....Old habits are hard to break you like some others are stuck in time . When you play mechanic you keep up are get left behind It won't be long before I will be there.
Hobo, I've been a lot of shops. Not one of them from the local on the corner guy to the big dealerships trust the dash gauges to diagnose problems. They have this thing, called scanner, that they hook up. Dash gauges go bad too or can give faulty readings. I've seen bad voltmeters, ampmeters, fuel level, temp and oil pressure gauges. I would not trust them to troubleshoot a customers vehicle. Not one shop I know of in my area will trouble shoot a vehicle based on reading from a dash mount gauge. I wouldn't allow any yahoo to work on my lawn mower who used gauges on the vehicle for troubleshooting! You can post link after link to magazine articles you want. When I see a service bulletin from the manufacturer recommending that for troubleshooting then I'll buy into it. Everything I've seen from manufacturers says hook up the scanner! Go argue with them, not me. Heck I know the owners for 5 small shops. One is a youngster and one pushing 70. All of them use a scanner to troubleshoot backed up with things like load testers and multimeters. Sorry, I'll take their word for it first.
Rick
Rick
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
Please tell us were to hook a scanner up to a Ford tractor.
All starting/charging test start here its the law I am sorry you do not get it... Why folks don't ask for this information and guess when a no crank, no start, no charge question is asked and ramble on like you with there best guess I don't know. Could it be they can not find the ALDL/DTC connector to plug in there scanner either.
Battery Voltage and State of Charge:
12.66v . . . . . . . . . . 100%
12.45v . . . . . . . . . . 75%
12.24v . . . . . . . . . . 50%
12.06v . . . . . . . . . . 25%
11.89v . . . . . . . . . . 0%
Your buds are going to learn a expressive lesson if they depend on there scanner to diagnosis a starting/charging system with out first confirming the health of the battery and alternator.
I will agree some dash mounted charging indicators suck. To replace them is expensive and you may end up with a gauge that still sucks. It should be no problem to replace your tractor gauge with a inexpensive gauge if it is out of calibration.
I am going to ramble on a little since you want to relate this to modern vehicles. Its amassing what you can do with a fancy voltmeter/scope.. It can do test that are fast/simple. Can you imagine how much time it would take to do a compression test on some of these modern vehicles, 3/4 and more hours
:shock: To confirm valve timing it could take the better part of a day. You can do starter draw, alternator output, test for AC ripple from the alt that will drive you computer crazy in just minuets. Man, I am glad those that have invested there livelihood in researching ways to test modern systems fast and simple.Most of the PIDs are voltage readings whodatunk'it. If the voltage is out of range you move to other test to find out were the problem is, if you need to know if its dropping out you dig deeper into the functions of the scope to see it in real time. Instead of making your best guess you can confirm a part is good and look for other issues that affect it. I am glad the folks that invented this equipment are not stuck in time are stuck in there old ways.
But guess WHUT all these test start with a good battery and a voltmeter its the first tool you hook up to it in what ever form you have. Amp meters, amp clamps, load testers are all other test start by knowing what the voltage is. That useless voltmeter is gonna lead you down the shortest road its the law.
Fight it all you want I am sure you will find a group of amp-meter
lubbers that enjoy chasing there tail an much as you do....
This post started out with a member asking a question then went into replacing parts. This may get interesting if there best guess is not the issue. If there best guess does not resolve the issue questions must be asked and answered. A voltmeter would come in handy and lead him down the shortest road...
http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?t=1295441
And that's why they too have battery load testers and USE them! Heck I'm 61 and now retired. I own both a scan tool and load tester.
Yea your chart is fine, if the battery is providing the amps needed with the voltage. I have put my load tester on batteries and the voltage has read fine, that is until you hit the load button! That load tester too can read low voltage and then tell me that all the battery needs is charged after I hit the load button. A straight up volt meter isn't going to tell me that. I don't care what you read in a magazine!
I never said I was an amp meter "lubber". You accused me of that. I haven't sunk to name calling. I said that changing over to a voltmeter really has no clear advantage over an amp meter that has no real clear advantage over an idiot light! [b:93f478efcc]In other words an unnecessary expense! [/b:93f478efcc] I did refer to shade tree mechanics who try trouble shooting without the proper equipment as "Yahoo's". I stand by that statement. I know independent mechanics running their own SUCCESSFUL shops from about 30 years of age to almost 70. 10 of em total in a rural area. None of them trouble shoot using dash mounted gauges. And none of em are working out of their "shop" at home! All of them except one owns or is buying their buildings and the one is renting the shop rear of a failed business. All but two have employees too.
Rick
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
You are rambling on the discussion is not about how many tools you have are the folks you know have that are needed perform a proper diagnoses its about what info do I need to lead me down the shortest road to resolve a no crank/start/charging issue . Its a issue everyone will encounter and most everyone is toll poor nor has knowledge of the system. So what information do I see just looking at my tractor that would be of the most value to lead me down the shortest road to resolve my issue. What question needs to be answered and how can I answer them with what I have on hand. For you I am stuck in the middle of no were sitting on my tractor I have no knowledge of how the system operates My tractor is graveyard dead it won't crank I have a dash mounted amp meter what can it tell me..
12V conversion with a gm 10si alt with a amp meter.
1) OK, I try to start my tractor it wont crank the amp meter reads 0.
What valuable info does the amp meter represent.
Gee, I turn the key on and hit the starter button and it does nothing! What valuable information do me EARS give me!
I turn the key on and the volt meter reads 12 volts, hit the starter button and nothing happens? What does the volt meter tell me? That I have 12 volts. That's it! That I have voltage and nothing else! Now if I get a voltage drop it tells me it's trying to do something, don't know what but something! Still doesn't tell me what's wrong. I still have to trouble shoot the darn thing. So out comes the load tester and multi meter. May as well have had an idiot light! Sorry, I don't guess problems away. I pinpoint them, repair them and move on. I'd do better with an hour meter in that hole to help me keep track of hours for maintenance like oil changes and lube!
I mean that even into the 70's wiring on tractors was pretty simple. Simple enough that both an amp meter and voltage gauge are about worthless. I have 2 tractors setting out here, both newer than my 8Ns and much more sophisticated. Both 06 series IH both made in 1967. One is 72 PTO HP and the other 112. Both came from the factory with idiot lights for oil and charging system. They have a temp and fuel gauge and tach with an hour meter.
TO me all you are doing is justifying why you opted to spend money on a volt meter. Heck it's your money! Spend it any way you like. Do not tell me how to spend my money!
It boils down to this. Is it OK to run an amp meter? Yes. Is it OK to change over to a volt meter? Yes. Is there a real clear advantage to one over the other? That is a matter of OPINION. Can I leave that hole empty? Yes. Can I put something more useful in that hole like an hour meter? Yes! It's OK to install an idiot light and a cover plate for the hole too.
Rick
Tell that to a battery that reads 12 volts but fails a load test! Heck about a month ago I had a pair of 6 volt batteries hooked in series for 12 volt, special fit for the battery boxes, used by IH that read 6 volt on each and both failed a load test. 250 dollars later is have 2 6 volt batteries that both read 6 volt but pass a load test. If there was a practical way to go to just one 12 volt battery on that tractor it would be a done deal! But with the loader and cab on it just ain't gonna happen.
The way the starter sounded because of the batteries you would have thought the starter was going bad. Trouble shooting with the proper equipment pin pointed the problem and made for a much easier repair. Getting that starter out with a cab on is a bear.
Rick
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
You are still missing the point and feel the need to brag about your advantage of owning equipment others don't have and will never have. Your reply's are of no help to the guys that have to depend on what they got to get'er done...
Most need direction and directions to a local parts store to have there battery checked by a guy that only knows how to push buttons is not of much help...
Checking the Voltage of the battery is were you start loaded up with equipment are not "its the law" Nice test equipment and knowing how to use it are nice but what do you do when its not available...
Most battery's that will not start a engine fail a load test that the starter applies to it ....Dat is your load test for those not as privileged as you...., That's were a voltmeter would be right handy. NO its not a confirmed kill but rite damm close...
"Tell that to a battery that reads 12 volts but fails a load test!"
You seam to have forgotten a voltmeter works in a static state and a dynamic state. A man with a voltmeter sent down the right road can win the battle.
In my reading I read a amp meter started to die when GM came out with a alternator.
The original AMP gauge system served as the main power distribution system. This circuit is the power source for the entire electrical system. (see diagram A)
Amp gauges at the dash were standard equipment with Model A Fords, back in the late 1920’s. And the fifteen amp capacity gauge at the dash worked fine with minimal electrical systems of that period. Current output from the small Model A generators was not even sufficient to support sealed beam headlights. (The old Model A was equipped with a small light bulb backed up by a large reflector in the headlight assembly.) The Model A only had one tail/brake light at the rear, a simple ignition system and a small battery about completed the electrical system. Such a small amount of electrical current flow through good connections at the AMP gauge wiring was no problem with the Model A Ford. And with current output limited by a cutout relay on the generator, the AMP gauge could handle the small battery charge rate. But as electrical systems became more powerful, Ford discontinued the old AMP gauge system long before the ‘70’s.
http://www.madelectrical.com/electricaltech/amp-gauges.shtml
Whatever. HMMM I seem to remember a friend with a new 1971 Ford with an amp meter? I saw GM's in the same age with amp meters for 71/72......so they were magical vehicles that Ford and GM didn't put an volt meter in? Someone else pointed out that they switched over to volt meters because of the amp output that exceeded a certain level. But seeing as you think you know more about this than they people who write the troubleshooting/repair manuals for OEM equipment I'll let you have your delusions. FWIW most alternators from the late 60's to early 70's on cars and pickups put out no more than about 65 amps. And the ones that pushed a whopping 90 amps had idiot lights!
AS far as having the correct equipment? Not that expensive. If I followed your advice I'd have to go and buy 6 volt meters at least 20 bucks a pop to convert my stuff (not including the boats). Then spend the time and effort wiring them in for questionable results. A battery load tester is less than 100 dollars, 60 to 80 bucks will buy a decent one. Do the math! And I've seen cheap multi meters advertised for under 10 bucks. Sorry but everyone on here likes to claim they are destitute. Lets see, most of us own a computer, pay for internet access, lot are paying for some type of TV service. Own at least one car and a tractor and most of us who own a tractor have our own homes. Doesn't sound very poor to me nor does it sound like less than 100 dollars is going to break you. Heck a lot have talked about buying the wife a new car at 30K. But on the other hand some guys on here farm. They have 4-5 tractors, a combine and other equipment. Lot of the newer tractors don't have a volt meter? Guess JD needs to hire you to tell them to put them on the equipment! While the engineers in another department rewrite the repair manuals to your way of doing things. Should save the dealer a fortune! They can just move their repair operations under that old oak tree! No need for large expensive buildings!
Rick
Hobo, to give you an idea of what I think of an amp meter.....My Farmall M has a defective meter. While it's running it acts like it's should. Shut it off the meter may show a charge, 0 or about a 2 map discharge. Leave the tractor sit a month it will start right up. I haven't bothered replacing the meter because other than being an indicator that shows it's charging while running that's all it is. Still would never consider trying to use a volt meter as a diagnostic tool.
Rick
Rick
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
That's just wonderful thanks to HF the price of a GOOD 500 amp load tester is getting into the price range of some folks. If its good I dunno, I do know those 100/150 amp tester are bare bones minimum for automotive ( barely sufficient or suitable.) but adequate for a law/motorcycle battery. (Sufficient to satisfy a requirement or meet a need, barely sufficient or suitable.)
Again you are taking this into a area that does not answer the posters question.
"Is there a consensus whether amperes meter or volt meter is more useful?"
Nether will crank your engine if it won't crank its useless. A voltmeter will lead you down the shortest ROAD to diagnosing the issue.
1) KOEO voltage
2) KOEC (key on engine crank) voltage
3 KOER voltage
I am gunna go one more step most have done it even YOU... To you and me we don't even think of it as a diagnostic tool but we do it when we do not have out doctors bag of tools with us.
We come out of walmart and a lady has her hood up she says her car won't crank. We raise the hood and the battery connections look great and tight. She has a idiot light and a amp gauge.
What shadtree diagnostic technique do you try to confirm the battery's health.
1) Turn the headlights on.
2) Look at the amp meter
3) Look at the idiot light
4) Confirm the brake lights work
I am not mad not gonna get mad its part of the learning process I may get corrected I may learn something that will help me down the road that I hope is the shortest road.
If you are worried about my ability and my tools I use to diagnostic a customers charging/starting system I have more invested in test equipment to get deeper into it than most can imagine and I know how to use it if not please correct ME.
I was thinking last night about were a run of the mill analog voltmeter are amp meter could report false info.
Its going to be hard for either to work fast enoufh to catch the initial amp draw/push a starter needs to get in motion. I normally see it takes 600 amps to push it in motion then it will settle down to what ever the normal amp draw is for that application.
They are just not fast enoufh to indicate the initial amp draw.
In this clip at 2:08 you will see the initial amp draw go off the chart if he had used a hi-amp-clamp initial amp draw would have stayed on the scope chart.
https://www1.snapon.com/Diagnostics/US/KB/Relative-Compression-Test.htm
This is DEEP a DIY guy can use voltage readings across the board to start his diagnostics.
Gee I AM a Do it yourselfer! And I do everything myself. Car/truck/tractor repair, roofing, electrical and plumbing I do. Nothing says you have to work under that tree. I hate to think just how much I have tied up in tools but it sure is handy to have the proper tool for the job. I even have a welder and know how to use it! Heck I even have a hub puller to take them stuck hubs off an 8N.
But I still would not trust a shop that used VERY questionable troubleshooting guides they found in a rag. Especially if I were paying someone to work on say a 50-60K vehicle, 250K tractor or combine. 500K dozer.
No, if I were going to brag about tools I's have to win the loto and then buy the bit 50+K Snap On set! Then I would brag!
Rick
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
Congratulations
If you own all the tools in the world but do not understand the basics you are no better off than a guy under a shadtree...
If my links are wrong prove them wrong... You have offered no information of value to this post other than "I got a load tester".
I am sure its been of great help to those that are willing to learn...
And in your opinion you offered BS trouble shooting that only tells you what the battery voltage reads. It tells you nothing about the actual condition of the battery! So your advice is faulty at best. Remember a battery can read 12+ volts and STILL BE BAD and a volt meter is only going to tell you that you have the required voltage. That is a lot more common that you want to believe. So by your advice I would have started taking crap apart to get at the starter, rebuilt the starter only to have the same problem, bad battery! So advice that makes work, cost money and doesn't address the actual problem is worse than worthless! I'd be right back a square one. Best case scenario I would have driven 50 miles round trip to bench test the starter. So just how is "get a volt meter" good advice? Along with a chart that says how much you can expect out of a battery at different voltage levels? That chart only works if the battery is good even though undercharged. My advice is to get a load tester. I sure hope you charge by the job and not the hour! Or that you don't charge for work that was wasted because you didn't trouble shoot it properly in the first place.
Because you are still having trouble figuring this out. An automotive system requires both voltage and amps to work right. Some things like a starter have a high amp draw while most lights don't draw much at all. If you have 13.8 volts with 5 amps it ain't gonna turn an engine over NO MATTER WHAT THAT VOLT METER says voltage is. By the same token 300 amps at 5 volts ain't gonna work very well either. But either meter is going to trouble shoot worth a darn because neither one provides the full picture. One lacks a voltage reading the other doesn't take amps into effect.
You otta come up here when it's about -30F. You see a lot of people with small batteries with starting problems. Most of the time it's because they got cheap and put a 500amp battery in their vehicle when OEM says 750. Nothing wrong with their fully charged battery. Just doesn't have enough amps for the job. And according to your trouble shooting advice there is nothing wrong. The volt meter reads 13+ volts! So I guess you would tell em there is nothing wrong because the volt meter reads 13.8? And we do see a lot of that every winter. First good cold snap and mechanics are flooded with those type problems. Next year it's the same story, just a different customer. Next biggest issue is those darn "fix-all" battery clamps. Too cheap to put on a new cable but now you pay me to put one on because it's cold out! Here is a good one for you. Next time you are dealing with dirty connections test voltage at both ends before you clean it. Often you will have the same reading at both ends but it fails to work? Why not? Even though dirty it's passing enough voltage to make it work? Could it be that it isn't passing enough amps? Why do you put big cables on a 6 volt battery? Why doesn't that 6 gauge wire work too well?
I did give advice. Get the proper tools for the job! That is my pearl of wisdom concerning this matter! They are not that expensive! My first reaction to using a battery load tester the first time wasn't "wish I could afford one" but rather "this is so easy and saves so much time I gotta get one".
Bruce's "tips" and a 10 buck HF multi meter is a heck of a lot better advice than your dash mounted volt meter! At least the multi meter can test more than battery volts!
Tell you what, go apply for a job at an OEM dealership and tell em you don't need no load tester that the vehicles volt meter is a diagnostic tool!
Rick
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
I will give you credit "You have mastered put"N the cart in front of the horse".
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