Another 24 volt ? Tx Jim Tom 43

[John T]

Okay, while were on the 24 volt thing again I have another theory I believe to be correct, lookin for some expert opinions:

Okay, we have all had it happen or heard farmer Billy Bob complain MY BATTERIES RUN DOWN OVERNIGHT AND I CANT FIND ANY SHORTS OR PROBLEMS AND THE BATTERIES ARE FINE, WHATS THE DEAL

To which we might respond, if all else is okay maybe theres a trickle discharge short to frame ground inside the starter from copper brush dust accumulation hmmmmmmmmmmm

ITS MY THEORY IF SUCH IS THE CASE ITS NOT BOTH (even though it still wont start) BATTERIES THAT GOT DISCHARGED, BUT ONLY ONE OF THEM and heres why......

ONLY ONE battery (say A) has a direct connection to the starter since the other (say B) is connected to the starter solenoid and its a normally OPEN circuit soooooooooo if theres a copper dust short in the starter its between ONLY ONE battery and frame ground (sorry Tom 43 my friend thats what I call it) and NOT the other cuz its wired to the solenoid and when its open its NOT tied to the starter where the short may take place .

Yall agree?? If not what am I missing?? Anyone know which side (left or right) battery that is on the new gen tractors???

God Bless yall,

John T I keep this up and I may offer the 24 volt seminar if asked again lol this is quite a review for all of us, thanks to Tom for starting this topic

 

[LarrySTN]

From the factory the right battery is connected to the starter, the left, to the starter solenoid. We have 2 4020"s on the farm and when they start to draw down the right battery, I use a quick disconnect on the battery to frame wire which stops the draw. When ready to use the tractor I simply reconnect the battery to frame ground, then when time allows I clean the inside of the starter.

 

[Tx Jim]

I'll accept your answer and put this phenomenal in the same group with my understanding of a woman.

Seriously as we all know the RH battery cable is attached to starter field stud and the drain makes it's complete path through the little ground wire ""BUT"" I've witnessed tractors do the same(drain RH battery) with the little ground wire missing or corroded to the point of no connection. Now explain that one??

 

[AJB-830]

John,
You beat me to it. In church this afternoon it came to me why the lights work on a 24-volt system with center ground removed. When the light switch is turned on, you have 24 volts across the lights. The frame completes the circuit. But you don't get 12 volts equally across each bulb as the tail light is in parallel with one of the front lights. So the two lights in parallel may only be at 8 volts. But the other single front light may have more than 16 volts across it. That's why one light burns bright and may burn out quickly. Not sure why I didn't think of this earlier.

Also looks like others agree that copper dust from the starter will run down one of the batteries over time. Years ago I measured my 830 and it drew about 5 milli amps standing. So been disconnecting the batteries for the last 25 years or so when I don't use it daily.

This was a good discussion. Al

 

[teddy52food]

It is the battery on the right.

 

[teddy52food]

John T; Some time we should get into a lively discussion on the workings of Joe Newman's energy machine. It is much simpler than this 24 volt JD system. What say you?

 

[John T]

Also, if theres a 12 volt gauge or sender etc it has to be in paralell with either the A or B circuits in order to work at 12 volts, so that leg has less resistance thus (if center bond isnt in place) theres more volts across one set of lights versus the other making one burn brighter n maybe even blow???

Hey together were gettin there n figurin this all out wooooooo hoooooooo

Im enjoying this learning n maybe even helping others

John T

 

[pete 23]

I worked IH tractors for 37 years. Could not take the new owners of CaseIH dealership and Deere dealer offered me a job. Boy, did I get an education on 24 volt systems. Service mgr used to work under me at IH years ago so knew I was into electric pretty good and he put me on a bunch of them jobs. Had one 4020 that all the starter would do was the machine gun on the starter solenoid. That is what we called it anyway. I did a little unhooking of things and got it started and into shop. Traced it down to a shorted out fuel gauge that of course would trip the breaker when turning key on. After I got it figured out, being me, I purposly shorted it out again just to show the other guys it was actually the problem. Before I worked there I never realized what system Deere was using. Kept busy on red. I call it an insulated ground system.

 

[Tx Jim]

John
I agree with all this for what ever good that will do. I wish that I had all these informative people at my disposal back when 24 volt systems were DRIVING ME CRAZY back in the 70'-80's.

 

[John T]

You guys are puttin my old brain in overload lol

Explain that one you ask???? Welllll if you read my post above I think it boils down to the fact that even if the center tie link to frame ground isnt there at the batteries, if theres a 12 volt gauge or other load that does have one leg to frame (and its in paralell with other loads on thas 12 volt side), current can still find a path to frame elsewhere via the load then to frame again YA THINK???????????????

If we had a large very readable diagram in front of us Im sure we could find alternative current paths to ground. In conclusion I think if the center of the batteries is tied to frame then each 12 volt side A and B can work independantly no problems but if the tie is broken then gauges or other loads get in paralell on just one side causing imbalances in the 24 volt circuit whereby one side is higher then 12 volts (still totals 24)

PS I think at the Expo when Buick demonstrated lights he had a big part of a dash assembly jury rigged that may NOT have had all the gauges n other 12 volt loads in place so that wasnt an honest demonstration versus an entire tractor. Still it demonstrates how lights can work even with no center tie

Whew Im tired lol

God Bless all you guys

John T

 

[John T]

Thanks Teddy and you know I respect and appreciate you, but as an old Purdue Electrical Engineering and Physics Major I just cant get past the laws of Physics and Thermodynamics which tell me its impossible for any machine magnets or otherwise to produce more energy then it consumes. I just cant get past that and Im too dern old n hard headed to even go down that road sorry lol

Thanks Teddy n God Bless n best wishes

John T

 

[teddy52food]

I respect your decision. We need some young & uncluttered minds to get into this. Give me a shout on my E-mail & I can give a brief outline as to what is happening. It may open your mind.

 

[teddy52food]

I forgot to open my mail.

 

[buickanddeere]

Display had fuel gauge, dash light, a trouble/problem light that didn"t work to to the dash switch internal resistor was too high. Four head lights, a white tail light and a red tail light. Two batteries , a starter that spun and a generator that motored at two speeds.
Wiring harness was a nearly aviation/nuclear quality from Jim at Agri-Services. http://www.wiringharnesses.com/
Dash gauges from http://www.jdgauges.com/index.html

 

[John T]

Cool, I was there once when you had some of that "stuff" laid out but may not have been once it was all fixed up properly??? Its been too long ago lol

John T

 

[buickanddeere]

2004 NYE I had the 24V starter, generator, regulator laid out on the ground. Where you were tying to walk through and demonstrate your table display.
2011 NYE had the entire live whirling and blinking 24V display.

 

[tim s]

Years ago maybe 1985, I found a complete service school 24 volt story board in the rear end of the Columbus Ohio Deere Depot,,I tried to get some one to release it but know one seemed to have the authority,,It was a nice display,,probably got trashed...

 

[55 50 Ron]

I"m curious as to how you know "when they start to draw down the right battery"? Do you have a separate ammeter in that line somewhere, or does the current "draw" read via the normal ammeter?

 

[Tx Jim]

These model tractor came from factory with an idiot light(no amp meter). The way one would know when RH batt was low is by checking both batt with a volt meter. After checking so many tractors one knew to just put jumper cables on RH battery and crank the tractor.