Another question 8N PTO Seal

[C.I.]

I also need to replace my PTO seal and gasket (50 8N Sidemount) which I have. Any additional bits of wisdom when comparing to the 9N question posted recently.

Another question is I might have a small leak possibly comming from underneath the front of the hitch area. If I remove the hitch bolts, will fluid come running out? Hitch seems tight. The oil may be comming from the lower 3-point stabilizer bars and simply running down underneath to the hitch. Seeing the trumpets need removed to install new seals, unless absolutly necessary, I think I will just live with the leaks as is. That seems to be a project bigger than me.. I will be draing the tranny/ hydraulic fluid today or tomorrow and know there are 3 plugs to assist in draining. Thanks for your comments.

Chet

 

[souNdguy]

The question below is about a 2N, thus all of my info applies to an 8N.

pressure wash and clean the hitch area so you know where the leak is coming from. might be the pto seal itself leaking and running down.

post back when you ID where the leak is coming from. if from the pins mounting the lower arms, you have to remove a trumpet and the chunk to do both sides.. though not a horrible job if you have a hoist / cherry picker.. etc.

post back.

pto seal deal is a 15 minute job.. unless you have a twisted pto shaft. and if you do.. plan on doing all the elaks, seals and axle trumpets and brakes while you have the rear end apart..

soundguy

 

[C.I.]

I know when the cleaning was finished, there was no oil anywhere on the back end. She was dry. In sanding for paint, I first noticed the lower pins to the lower 3-point bars were wet from oil (saw a drop hanging from the bolt on one side). Just not sure if there was enough to run down to the hitch but I will check tonight.

Thus the question. Do I need to be concerned about those hitch bolts. Could they be leaking? (IE if I remove, do they extend into the housing and the oil)?? PTO had only a trace of oil seen from the opening but keep in mind, she was never started or hydraulics used. I think the PTO does leak and why I got the seal and gasket.

The fluid seems quite thin (assume quite old). After replacing the seals on the PTO, plan on using 90W mineral which should be a bit thicker and possibly hold at the seals a bit better, especially at the lower arm bolts.. That is leakage I just might have to live with...

Chet

 

[Harry Wilken]

3 point stud mount does have a nut inside axle housing.

 

[souNdguy]

If it really is the lower studs that hold the big 3pt arms leaking, then you have to remove the trumpert ( left one ) and then you can get at the nut to tighten, or rather.. loosen, clean up, perhaps add some sealers, then retighten.. then reach thru and do the other side as well.

soundguy

 

[C.I.]

Soundguy
Thanks for your thoughts. Before draining the fluid last night, I took a close look. No question, both lower arm studs leak. The PTO looks to leak much less but it is seen very slightly and it leaks forward on the top hitch, not at the back where the shaft comes out. Still plan on replacing seal and gasket while oil is out.

I noted you said you can get to both studs by only pulling one trumpet. This is a project I would have to have done which I assume will cost $$. I might just need to live with it for now (but despise leaks of any kind). With the fluid out, need to get her dry and paint so I can start getting her back together..

As a note, the fluid was low. I estimate about 3 gallons. Could not get the middle plug off with the pipe wrench. Front plug had just a pinch of water which came out first before the oil. The rear, no water. Probably condensation due to low levels? I will get a true wrench a see if I can get the pump plug off or would this even be necessary? It"s a bit rounded.... Thanks

Chet

 

[souNdguy]

need to clarify this statement:

"he PTO looks to leak much less but it is seen very slightly and it leaks forward on the top hitch, not at the back where the shaft comes out"

the pto shaft seal is right where the pto stub exits the bearing carrier.. the bearing carrier has a gasket where it's flange bolts to the rear center housing. what 'top hitch' are you refering to. the pto and 3pt are seperate components.

as for 3g low.. YIKES.. it only holds 5!

yes.. pump drain needs to come out.. suggest using a pipe wrench, piece of wood and bottle jack to support wrench.. alternately you can also weld a big hex nut to the old plug.. just a tack ona couple sides... or even use a chissle to carefully bite into the flange and spin it out.. pipe wrench usually does it. once out.. fix the plug by grinding new flats.. or welding a nut to it.. or simply replace it. DO use make / cut a new gsket. any thin non corrugated cardboard will work.. show box.. cerial box.. etc.... heck.. in a pinch.. even gasket paper will work

as for the oil leak at the studs... yep..pull left trumpet, clean and seal, pull chunk, then clean and seal right side.. thus only needing to pull 1 trumpet.. can do it with hand tools and a cherry picker or overhead hoist.. hefty tryy limb.. etc.

I dodn't think I'd rush the job, clean it up, and paint it.. with it still leaking. but that's just me.

ok.. i hate to even mention this.. but.. it doesn't sound like you've got the time to fix it correctly before you need the tractor to be working.

do this test.. those lower studs that are leaking.. see if they are loose at all. if they are tight but leaking, then, with all the oil drained, use carb cleaner and clean up the area around the pins completely till it is dry, then get some jbweld quick, or other 5 minute epoxy, and then 'goop up around the pins. it is possible that the pins got loose in the past, someone actually tightened them, but they still elak beacuse the hole in the trumpet got egged out a bit, and they fif not use any sealer. normally we tell people to clean the hole,and put jbweld or similare material in the hole before tightening the pin, just for this reason.. the pin may be tight, but may still seep if there was some wear.

in any case.. goot it on, let it setup.. maybee add another coat.. let cure, then sand a lil and prime and paint. if the pin is tight, then the jb will also keep it dry.

if the pin is NOT tight.. you are ASKING for problems by not fixing it.

leaks, broken pin.. broken or ruined trumpet.. etc.

you have the machine and can best decide if they are loose or not. I'm just tellin ya what I know.

soundguy

 

[C.I.]

Soundguy

Regarding the "arm studs", I originally thought they were bolts as I was wanting to take the arms off to paint. But found they just spin (easily by hand) when trying to turn. Is this what you mean by loose? I have not tried to literally wiggle the stud itself to feel if they are loose. The round inner collar of the arm which the stud rotates on show some wear (steel getting a bit thin) at least on the outside area you can see. Should the studs easily rotate??

As for the PTO, it showed virtually no wetness from behind (in the shaft collar area) but noticed some on the top side of the of the hitch itself (which somewhat angles forward). There is space between the top of the hitch (that has the hitch pin) and the main tractor housing. I might just not got that cleaned originally. When cleaning, the PTO area was full of gunk so I am assuming when running, the pto seal and gasket are leaking and will be replacing this weekend. And maybe, the PTO is not leaking as it is not wet from the back.

I also noticed the underneath hitch bolts (which hold the hitch in position) had a droplet forming on several of them last night. These did not come from the arms leak. It came from underneath. Do these bolts go into the housing far enough to reach the oil and could those be leaking? Maybe the wetness seen here is not PTO related but bolt related?? I might be making a mountain out of a mole hill here. It's not like oil is just flowing like a river in these areas but I do not know what is mechanically acceptable. The stud bolt arms are most of the concern with PTO being next. I would like to remove the hitch to clean but did not know if that would mean I am into the oil reservoir when removing the bolts???...Fixing those arm studs sound costly and would hope I can just live with it...But if they are "loose" and break off or at a point slideout, well then that is a different story. And I thought I was on the downhill side of this minor refurbish.. Oh well...

I appreciate all your comments and views.

Chet

 

[souNdguy]

wow.. first... you really need to post a pic of the 'hitch' part you are talking of. you keep intermingling 'hithch and hitch pin' when talking about the pto seal.

there is 100% nothing to do with an y hitch or hitch pin and the lil pto stub sticking out of the tractor.

so.. the studs the 3pt lower arms are on rotate by hand and you are asking if they are loose?

loose studs spin.. tight studs don't spin..

If they are really that loose.. the left trumpet NEEDS to come off so you can seal and tighten the sutds before the hardened steel stud pin wallows out the softer cast iron the trumpet is made out of, or gets loose enough and one day rips the lower flange off when you hook something with the 3pt.

there's just no bandaid fix for this I'm afraid.

it's a pay me now or pay me a whole bunch plus interest and penalties and blood, sweat and tears, later kind of thing.

as for the lower bolts.. yeah.. could be leaking.. and they are the LEAST of your concerns right now.. so is the possibly weepy pto seal.. the 3pt studs that are finger loose are your 110% primary concern...

soundguy

 

[C.I.]

Soundguy

Made it home for lunch at took another look. Why I bring the hitch into this is the pto housing and shaft sets right above it. For the top part of the hitch plate to be wet, I am thinking it is due to oil leaking from the PTO above it. Today, it looks like a small leak running down the PTO bolted collar down onto the hitch.

As for those arm studs, well that is not good news. I looked at them again. Yes, they spin by hand easily. On the right, I notice a bushing that fits into cast housing of the tractor that the stud runs thru into the tractor. I see it stick out of the tractor housing maybe 3/16". No play with the stud in and out (but note when trying to pull in and out, oil movement can be seen.. The left also has a bushing. It can only be seen for about 1/16" and there is play, possibly 1/16" in and out (again, you can see the movement by oil moving around the bushing). This is the one which leaks more.

I did also notice each stud has a large steel washer installed right before the bolt seen on the end of the stud (outside the arm). Doubt they are origianal as they are not the same diameter size. Looks like someone might have used them as a spacer to keep thing tight. I think that would mean someone has removed the trumpet before??? Thats what I see. And it sounds like I will need to bite the bullet on this one and get it fixed... I am needing to pull the wheels to shot blast the centers before putting on new rims. My father in law thinks we can...

Thanks and keep those comments comming.

Chet

 

[souNdguy]

the washers were more likely there to keep a wallowed out lower lift arm on the stud.

you remov ethe lift arms by removing the nut ont he end of the stud. of course.. you and't with yours as they are loose.. though you could split the nut easilly with a nut splitter or die grinder / angle grinder.

ps.. not a bushing.. it's merely a tapered part of the pin that fips a tapered part of the trumpet housing.

when you pull the left trumpet, disassemble, clean the socket, add jbweld and put the pin in and torque to about 150ft#, put a coter key in.. remove chunk, reach thru and do the other side.

the oil on the top part of the DRAWBAR HANGER is likely fromt he pto seal.

the pto deal is a 10-15 minute job.. nothing to sweat over.

soundguy

 

[C.I.]

Soundguy

I really appreciate your guidance. And although your thoughts of issues to come are not what I wanted to hear, I have already started the process of fixing the problem. It seems you have seen this before and that there is only one solution. No quick fix. And when I started this project, I was not going to cut corners in getting her mechanically sound.

So what parts will I need to order to resolve the issue. I would assume (2) new studs, bolts, trumpet gasket, seals??? If the pivot holes are worn at the end of the arm, can they or should they be replaced? What engineer came up with the idea the nut is on the inside???

Thanks for sharing.
Chet

 

[souNdguy]

at a minimum you will need new axle trumpet gaskets.

you may not need anything else, except oil.

tighten the studs up, and use a sealer int he sockets.. I like jb weld.. the regular stuff, not the quick.

clean sockits and taper pins with a cotton rag and carb cleaner, verfy they fit and can still be tightened down, if so, mix up a abundant amount of jb, coat the taper pin and socket, and torque it down, add cotter pin.. same for the other side.

allow 24 hrs before you put oil in the sump, and the 3pt arms and nuts back on the exterior studs for the jb to cure.. though you can certaintly get her all buttoned back up while waiting.

new trumpet gaskets.. some people like to wet them to hang them on to prevent tearing.. .. bolt down.. etc.

soundguy