Back working on the 300 utility - question(s)

[Dave H (MI)]

This project goes back a few years. I am beginning to think it is cursed as I have had some serious health issues since starting it. No details on that, just believe me when I tell you I cannot remember something. The memory is not going to come back.

Briefly, this tractor had a bad rear main seal. It sat out for one winter covered. I brought it inside in nice weather and split it and repaired the seal then could not get it back together. Turned out the engine was stuck. Some fairly minor rust in one cylinder which cleaned up very smooth. I replaced the rings and the bearing on that one piston only since I had it out of the tractor. After that it turned freely so I put it all back together and then, well...hospital. Following Spring it is stuck when I try to start it. Put up some posts and consensus was it needed to have the head pulled again but then...more hospital. Much better now. Not likely to have any more issues for a while.

All of this is in the archives, but it is another year and I have pulled the head. Pistons number 1 and 4 are all the way up and the other two are all the way down. This seems a little odd to me but maybe not. It has never been run since I worked on it. Only turned by hand. I put a block on the 1 and 4 pistons and gave each a few hits with a hammer but they do not budge. Seems like they should. Cylinders have never been dry. I keep a little oil in there and it is still in there as of yesterday. All looks good. So I think I need to drop the oil pan unless someone has a better idea. It was really clean in there when I put it back together. Since it wasn't stuck and really should not be stuck, I feel like something must be conflicting but nothing comes to mind since I touched nothing except the one piston. Really seems like I must have done something wrong there. If any of this rings a bell for someone please let me know. Otherwise I will proceed until a question arises and we can just call this post a "back story". Thanks as always.

 

[rustred]

You will not move the pistons by smacking them when at top dead centre. Try the starter. And see if u can get any oil oil around the tops first.

 

[Dave H (MI)]

They have been soaking in oil up until yesterday when I pulled the head. The two lower ones still are. I mentioned the piston position because it occurred to me that this was the case and the block and hammer would be a no go. I also wondered if it was normal for two to be up and two down. That would be in the I do not remember list. I got started with this because the starter would not turn the engine last year when I had it all put back together finally. I would like to try again with the head off to see if it is moving them at all. Not sure if the starter is still connected but I can give it a try. Things got a little hot. I'm a little wary of getting shocked...not sure but I think I am supposed to avoid such things. I will try to make this happen though. Is there a safe way to bypass all the connections and go straight to the battery or no?

 

[caterpillar guy]

I would put a bar across or on the edge of the sleeves so they don't move if they are wet sleeves. Then with a Pry on the hand crank put some pressure on the hand crank while giving a good hit on top. that should make the crankshaft turn by TDC so it is not just pounding on the rod to crankshaft at TDC. If it is stuck very bad it will not turn with the starter probably. The reason I say to have the pry on the hnad crank while giving a good hit on top of the piston.

 

[rustred]

They have been soaking in oil up until yesterday when I pulled the head. The two lower ones still are. I mentioned the piston position because it occurred to me that this was the case and the block and hammer would be a no go. I also wondered if it was normal for two to be up and two down. That would be in the I do not remember list. I got started with this because the starter would not turn the engine last year when I had it all put back together finally. I would like to try again with the head off to see if it is moving them at all. Not sure if the starter is still connected but I can give it a try. Things got a little hot. I'm a little wary of getting shocked...not sure but I think I am supposed to avoid such things. I will try to make this happen though. Is there a safe way to bypass all the connections and go straight to the battery or no?

There will always be 2 pistons at TDC at the same time. It’s called running mates. Your starter had a lot more power than you arm turning an engine. It was unstuck and now stuck so just try that.

 

[jimmyjoe]

Maybe the starter is stuck. Take the starter off and try to pry on ring gear teeth.

 

[Dave H (MI)]

There will always be 2 pistons at TDC at the same time. It’s called running mates. Your starter had a lot more power than you arm turning an engine. It was unstuck and now stuck so just try that.

Good to know about the pistons. I was wondering about that. I will put the starter back in and come up with a way to power it briefly to see if it moves them. Thanks.

 

[Dave H (MI)]

I would put a bar across or on the edge of the sleeves so they don't move if they are wet sleeves. Then with a Pry on the hand crank put some pressure on the hand crank while giving a good hit on top. that should make the crankshaft turn by TDC so it is not just pounding on the rod to crankshaft at TDC. If it is stuck very bad it will not turn with the starter probably. The reason I say to have the pry on the hnad crank while giving a good hit on top of the piston.

I do not have the crank or one that fits it. The pulley that you would put the crank onto is missing the cross piece that fits the crank if I had one. Good to hear from you. We know each other from the past...either lunch at Fowlerville or some other post I was doing. Cannot recall which.

 

[Dave H (MI)]

Maybe the starter is stuck. Take the starter off and try to pry on ring gear teeth.

I can check that. I am pretty sure I had this starter serviced a year or so ago but that is another dead memory. Almost certain though. Still no reason not to check, just to be thorough. I did the ring gear thing though. Think maybe I will try that with the head off though. Maybe that will give me some clue as well. Thanks.

 

[caterpillar guy]

Yup from Both a valve spring compressor and Fowlerville lunches The valve spring was an opinion on the type. Since you don't have a crank for it. If there is a hole underneath in line with the flywheel and ring gear it would be easier to pry in line with the teeth than from the side like through the starter hole. I hate trying the starter method because it is hard on the drive and the starter. I did once have an engine that was starting to stick I put a big bar 5ft through the yoke on the transmission with it in high or as high as I could get without air. Then with the bar pulling and a helper tapping the starter it rolled over then was free. It is now in one for the Stiegers.

 

[Janicholson]

I can check that. I am pretty sure I had this starter serviced a year or so ago but that is another dead memory. Almost certain though. Still no reason not to check, just to be thorough. I did the ring gear thing though. Think maybe I will try that with the head off though. Maybe that will give me some clue as well. Thanks.

If the starter is still out of the engine, use a modest prybar to try to move the ring gear through the starter mount hole. If prying the ring gear against the starter hole does not move the pistons with oil sitting on them, and the head off, something is really wrong. You indicate it has never turned since rebuilding! That is also an indicator of a primary fault.
Engine rod, or main bearings with no clearance (undersized inserts on a journal that is too big for them).
End gap on rings butted together because they were for a oversized bore and now locking the pistons.
Flywheel bolt too long issues (not sure on that possibility).
Stuck lifters in the valve train (forcing those can break parts!!).

If it does turn (either teeth on the ring gear away from you, or toward you) your starter or connections are at fault. the starter has a metal connection from the side to the relay (L shaped IIRC) a jumper can be connected to that metal, and to a 12v battery, then the other jumper lead can be used to ground on the starter motor frame. (momentary hand made contact, not clamped on) this will make the starter spin. (polarity is not important if the normal wires to the starter are not connected) Jim

 

[Dave H (MI)]

I got it unstuck! There was no place to access the ring gear easily. I had to put the starter back on the tractor because, now I recall, I took it in for service. The battery needed a charge so had to wait on that. I had sprayed Zep 45 around the edges of the pistons last night. I thought I would grab the fan and see if it would budge and the thing was loose. It was REAL stuck before but I am not questioning my luck.

Can anyone tell me if it would hurt anything to use the starter to spin it around a couple times so I can see all is moving free and consistent? I know the oil pump is down in the belly and I don't want oil all over the place. But just a couple revolutions? Hopefully not enough to bring oil up to the top. OK or no?

 

[caterpillar guy]

If the pan is on I would make oil reach the top to lubricate the cam ans lifters. IT is not going to squirt oil all over at starter speed but would pusuh oil to the top end and crank bearings. OR you can pull a plug on an oil gallery and pump oil with a pump like a grease gun or oil can to lube bearings . Just needs some oil on them. Then before assembly of the head check that the lifters are all in place in there much easier to reach them without the head on. Might even drizle a bit of clean oil on them too. Never to much oil on an engine when setting before running.

 

[Janicholson]

If the pan is on I would make oil reach the top to lubricate the cam ans lifters. IT is not going to squirt oil all over at starter speed but would pusuh oil to the top end and crank bearings. OR you can pull a plug on an oil gallery and pump oil with a pump like a grease gun or oil can to lube bearings . Just needs some oil on them. Then before assembly of the head check that the lifters are all in place in there much easier to reach them without the head on. Might even drizle a bit of clean oil on them too. Never to much oil on an engine when setting before running.

There is a lifter cover that makes that easy if they need to be delt with. oiling from the deck is a good idea. A grease gun works if filled with oil, but a pump oilcan is less of a problem. Jim

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

I got it unstuck! There was no place to access the ring gear easily. I had to put the starter back on the tractor because, now I recall, I took it in for service. The battery needed a charge so had to wait on that. I had sprayed Zep 45 around the edges of the pistons last night. I thought I would grab the fan and see if it would budge and the thing was loose. It was REAL stuck before but I am not questioning my luck.

Can anyone tell me if it would hurt anything to use the starter to spin it around a couple times so I can see all is moving free and consistent? I know the oil pump is down in the belly and I don't want oil all over the place. But just a couple revolutions? Hopefully not enough to bring oil up to the top. OK or no?

It's perfectly fine to do that. The oil doesn't spray out of the top end.

 

[caterpillar guy]

It will more of a flow and spatter from the tappets moving than to spray out anywhere. IT does flow a steady flow . It is not going to run out and down the side though it will splatter some and make a bit of a mess if you run it long to set the valves. I have done it both ways running and still. Still is easier to do.