Baled some hay

[Marshal51]

Tried the 220 out last night. When working properly it baled a really nice bale. However, only baled 10 out of 30. Everything appears to work great except one knotter doesn’t tie. It tries but it’s almost as if the knot “pops” like there is too much tension. I reduced the bale tension and baled even worse. Something I didn’t think of was the bale chamber is very rusty from sitting outside for several years and I wonder if that’s what’s causing too much pressure on the knotter. Anyone have any ideas or thoughts? First time square baling so any help is appreciated. Thanks.

 

[jon f mn]

Need to know more, is there a partial knot left? Is it on the front of rear twine end? If one side ties and the other doesn't its usually an adjustment. If you have a book it is pretty good at diagnosis for tie problems

 

[DanielW]

The good thing: All baler manufacturers apart from Massey and IH used Rasspe knotters (or in the case of Ford, a copy of a Rasspe knotter), so diagnosis is the same as any of the common NH/JD balers that used Rasspe knotters. As Jon notes, a little more detail is needed: Some pictures of your knots and twine routing would be good. But take a look at this document (attached pdf) and this video (link). Once you see how they work, this troubleshooting pdf makes a lot of sense and can lead you in the right direction for almost every knotter problem.

 

[DanielW]

I should also add: Be careful with rough ground. If I remember right, there was at least one Case baler of that era that was a great baler, except the feeder forks would interfere with the pickup if the pickup was raised. If you hit a bump on rough ground and the pickup jumped up, the feeder forks would crash into it and tear things apart.

 

[Marshal51]

Need to know more, is there a partial knot left? Is it on the front of rear twine end? If one side ties and the other doesn't its usually an adjustment. If you have a book it is pretty good at diagnosis for tie problems

I pulled out the twine from last night.
One knotter tied everytime.

The other either tied then broke right after

Or didn’t tie at all

 

[JOCCO]

Marshall i am the last person anyone should consult on a case baler! But what about the cutting knives? Are the knotters set up for that stuff. I use sisal green 9000 in my balers and twine brand can be a big issue. You need a book. And have some one turn it by hand as you or a knotter guy watch it to se what it is doing. Last look at your twine disc on the one missing.

 

[JOCCO]

The good thing: All baler manufacturers apart from Massey and IH used Rasspe knotters (or in the case of Ford, a copy of a Rasspe knotter), so diagnosis is the same as any of the common NH/JD balers that used Rasspe knotters. As Jon notes, a little more detail is needed: Some pictures of your knots and twine routing would be good. But take a look at this document (attached pdf) and this video (link). Once you see how they work, this troubleshooting pdf makes a lot of sense and can lead you in the right direction for almost every knotter problem.

Nice video

 

[Fritz Maurer]

Twine holder tension too high. When the bill hook rotates, it pulls about 1/4 " of twine out of the disc to make the knot. If it can't pull the twine out, it will either fray some of strands , or break over the bill hook entirely.

 

[jon f mn]

Looks like twine tension is too tight. Loosen it a bit and try again. With twine tension a little goes a long way, so adjust 1/8 turn at most each time. When you get close 1/12 turn on the bolt makes a lot of difference. Plastic twine makes it more difficult on these old balers, so go one way a couple times and if you dont see improvement go back the other way. On my baler I gave up on plastic twine and went to sisal and found it works better. Also today's twine is not as consistent as in the old days, so I went to the heavier 7200 ft and now things work good.

 

[Don Rudolph]

Looks like twine tension is too tight. Loosen it a bit and try again. With twine tension a little goes a long way, so adjust 1/8 turn at most each time. When you get close 1/12 turn on the bolt makes a lot of difference. Plastic twine makes it more difficult on these old balers, so go one way a couple times and if you dont see improvement go back the other way. On my baler I gave up on plastic twine and went to sisal and found it works better. Also today's twine is not as consistent as in the old days, so I went to the heavier 7200 ft and now things work good.

I agree, 7200 is more consistent then most brands of 9000 twine and easier to adjust the knotters for.

 

[DanielW]

I agree that twine holder tension looks like it might be a smidge too tight. But I'd also agree with Jocco about looking at the simplest thing first: How sharp are your twine knives? Three of the problems you mentioned or showed are:

- Knots 'almost' forming then 'popping' (as per your first post)
- Significantly frayed ends - even on the knot from the good knotter (all pictures)
- Loop knot on one twine (as per your second knot picture)

While there are a few factors that can cause these symptoms, all three of these symptoms can be caused by dull twine knives: Not cutting the knot cleanly and pushing it off the billhook too soon or irregularly (first problem). Frayed ends from not cutting cleanly (second problem), and loop knot on one side (dull knife is pushing hard on the twine before it cuts, making a longer, frayed tail - Tail is so long that one end doesn't come out of the knot and forms a loop). Before doing anything else, I'd make sure your knives are sharp. Dull knives can cause a boat-load of grief.

 

[Hoofer B]

try sisal twine

 

[Fritz Maurer]

Upon magnified inspection, the knots shown are not pulled all the way through. Low billhook tension is also indicated.

So.... when you say the bale pops like too much tension, is the twine literally breaking, or is the knot coming untied?

Are there any frayed areas right next to, or a 1/2 inch from, the completed knot? Carefully inspect the knot while the bale is still in the chamber, before the bale has a chance to expand and put full strain on the knot.

 

[JOCCO]

Upon magnified inspection, the knots shown are not pulled all the way through. Low billhook tension is also indicated.

So.... when you say the bale pops like too much tension, is the twine literally breaking, or is the knot coming untied?

Are there any frayed areas right next to, or a 1/2 inch from, the completed knot? Carefully inspect the knot while the bale is still in the chamber, before the bale has a chance to expand and put full strain on the knot.

I agree on bill hook not only tension, but what about opening and closing cams?

 

[Fritz Maurer]

I agree on bill hook not only tension, but what about opening and closing cams?

The closing cam is under spring tension, so if you're thinking worn cams , that could be the problem also....

We don't know much about the history of this baler, other than he tried it out. It's important to know if this came on suddenly (broken spring or other parts) or over time (cam issues like you say) . If everything is covered with rust it's pointless to start adjusting things until maybe 50 bales go through to smooth things up a bit.

 

[JOCCO]

The closing cam is under spring tension, so if you're thinking worn cams , that could be the problem also....

We don't know much about the history of this baler, other than he tried it out. It's important to know if this came on suddenly (broken spring or other parts) or over time (cam issues like you say) . If everything is covered with rust it's pointless to start adjusting things until maybe 50 bales go through to smooth things up a bit.

Yes i agree Fritz very well said. I have more experience on Deere and IH balers but was trying to help him out. To bad he could not get a good baler man assuming he is not to well versed in knotters.

 

[Marshal51]

I messed with it a little last night and I agree the knives are probably dull as the ends of the knots do look frayed. I’ll look into sharpening those.

I turned the baler over by hand while someone pulled the twine.. as if to make a bale.. and it ties just fine minus the fraying.

I did find one of the springs for the hay dogs in front of the knotters is broke so I’ll look into getting that fixed as well.

Thanks everyone for all the suggestions and input! I’ll check my tensions and see if there’s any adjustments needed there.

I’ll add I bought this from a guy that claimed the last time it was used was after they had a neighbor completely go through the baler due to the needles breaking.. no denying they've had a timing issue or something as they gave me 4-6 broken needles in the deal. Baled 100 bales and then parked it. No way of knowing the accuracy of this or how many years ago that really was.

 

[JOCCO]

MARSHALL i am going to get in trouble here with the case people. Broken needles were common on case balers. Not sure on the knives if replacable or can be resharpend on it. Also check the knife clearance. You really need the manual for it. It will have all the setting measurements etc. Twine tension used to use a pull scale to check pounds. That spring needs to be fixed too. Last i will add some twine discs had to be adjusted or shimmed for plastic or sisal. Keep us posted.

 

[Fritz Maurer]

Since Case balers are more or less orphans in the eyes of CNH, is there any literature out there being reprinted like maybe Jensales?

 

[JOCCO]

Since Case balers are more or less orphans in the eyes of CNH, is there any literature out there being reprinted like maybe Jensales?

Not sure Ebay is a great source.