Broken studs

[jaoneill]

Finally getting serious about swapping engines in my Tractomotive (Allis) TL-10. Donor engine (Allis W-226) came with the machine when I bought it and seller said it was sound but, has been sitting for the three years I've had it and likely for 20-30 years prior, but it does spin. Thought it would be wise to check into it and maybe freshen it up, and then the fun began. Head mostly bolts on but there are 4 studs and head was not about to slip off over them. After soaking for a week with penetrant two of them came loose with my stud remover tool but the other two snapped off. One still had 1/2" of thread exposed and I've welded a nut on it but the 800 ft lbs that my 1/2" drive impact gun develops won't stir it and I hesitate to use the 3/4" drive that would most likely snap it off again. (the small gun on the stud remover tool was what sheared them off initially). What are thoughts on heating the block below the head where the studs are threaded in?

 

[John Deere D]

Clean area around stud ......your going to attach a washer.......
I have always welded a flat washer to the stud.
Washer is next to the head.
After a couple of hours I run another pass of weld on the same washer / stud.
Then I weld a nut to the washer.
After nut is cool enough to touch by bare hands...I remove stud .......................
Bob..

 

[jaoneill]

Clean area around stud ......your going to attach a washer.......
I have always welded a flat washer to the stud.
Washer is next to the head.
After a couple of hours I run another pass of weld on the same washer / stud.
Then I weld a nut to the washer.
After nut is cool enough to touch by bare hands...I remove stud .......................
Bob..

Thank you, I'll give that a go tomorrow. Any thoughts on putting the rosebud to the block?

 

[JD Dave]

Clean area around stud ......your going to attach a washer.......
I have always welded a flat washer to the stud.
Washer is next to the head.
After a couple of hours I run another pass of weld on the same washer / stud.
Then I weld a nut to the washer.
After nut is cool enough to touch by bare hands...I remove stud .......................
Bob..

You know, that sounds like a real good idea. I've not yet done that but will keep your idea in by bag of tricks. Thanks.

 

[Ohio88]

On an Oliver head we were able to remove broken studs with easy out and heat. Had to do 4 of them. We used a rose bud to heat them. Tried to not get them above a very dull red.

 

[timcasbolt]

If you know someone with a Bridgeport it wouldn't be a very big job to mill out the broken studs and install helicoils or timeserts. Maybe one to two hours' work.

 

[Mobuck]

The only time I had to remove seized studs from cast, I heated the stud rather than the surrounding cast.
Absolutely agree with 'John Deere D' on the process of first welding a heavy washer to the broken stud followed by the nut. My results have been much more successful using that sequence.

 

[jaoneill]

If you know someone with a Bridgeport it wouldn't be a very big job to mill out the broken studs and install helicoils or timeserts. Maybe one to two hours' work.

Problem is that I can't get the head off over the studs; once the head is off it's no longer an issue, it's the 5"-6" that is stuck trough the head that is the problem; no matter how shallow a taper I drive between the block and the head, it won't budge.

 

[Mobuck]

If you're able to get a nut welded on the stud, set your impact on low and just let it sit there and rattle forward and reverse alternating. Impact wrenches are cheap. Better to trash an impact than wank the head even more.

 

[Check Break]

Any thoughts on putting the rosebud to the block?

Yes. When you heat the block, it will expand. When it cools, it will shrink. When it shrinks, it will crack. Not what you're looking for.

 

[MarkB_MI]

Forget about heating the block. You'll just waste a bunch of acetylene. Heat the STUD. Get it cherry red and it will come right out.

 

[jaoneill]

If you're able to get a nut welded on the stud, set your impact on low and just let it sit there and rattle forward and reverse alternating. Impact wrenches are cheap. Better to trash an impact than wank the head even more.

I hear you; I have been very careful not to "wank" on the head , will keep trying with the impact but may have to resort to the rosebud on the block to try to break the rust on the threads.

 

[moresmoke]

Sounds like the stud is stuck in the head more than it is in the block. Heat the stud, dull red is enough. Apply wax to the stud where it comes out of the head. I have a stick of machinist wax I use, but a candle, crayon or whatever you have handy will work. On something deep like you are working on, I would heat, then wax and let cool 3-4 times before trying to get the stud out.

 

[Ray,IN]

Problem is that I can't get the head off over the studs; once the head is off it's no longer an issue, it's the 5"-6" that is stuck trough the head that is the problem; no matter how shallow a taper I drive between the block and the head, it won't budge.

Attach a few bolts to the head. Then use an overhead chain-hoist to lift the tractor just a bit so tire sidewall bulge disappears. I use a big copper hammer to tap all around the head. When it begins to loosen I use old chisels for wedges around the block to head, to help the rust penetrant along, lifting a bit more as the head moves. I had soaked the studs with penetrant for a week first. The trick is to keep the pull on the head even and not over-do the wedges/chisels and mark the cast iron.
We had to do my old MF135 Perkins head that way, after it moved an ½" it came off easy.

 

[rustred]

Thank you, I'll give that a go tomorrow. Any thoughts on putting the rosebud to the block?

Long as u don’t light it. Lol. Other wise no.

 

[jaoneill]

Sounds like the stud is stuck in the head more than it is in the block. Heat the stud, dull red is enough. Apply wax to the stud where it comes out of the head. I have a stick of machinist wax I use, but a candle, crayon or whatever you have handy will work. On something deep like you are working on, I would heat, then wax and let cool 3-4 times before trying to get the stud out.

Bingo! I'll do the wax treatment before I weld the washer and nut on them.

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

The "magic nut trick" won't work with so much stuck area. The stud is not only stuck in the block, it's stuck through the head. That's way too much distance to heat.

Even if you heat the block that won't help with the stud being rusted into the head. You need to get the head off first before you have any hope of getting the stud out of the block.

I've been racking my brain for possible methods to use, and I'm thinking air hammer/chisel. Use a blunt hammer head and rattle on the top of the stud while pulling up on the head.

 

[jaoneill]

The "magic nut trick" won't work with so much stuck area. The stud is not only stuck in the block, it's stuck through the head. That's way too much distance to heat.

Even if you heat the block that won't help with the stud being rusted into the head. You need to get the head off first before you have any hope of getting the stud out of the block.

I've been racking my brain for possible methods to use, and I'm thinking air hammer/chisel. Use a blunt hammer head and rattle on the top of the stud while pulling up on the head.

This is why I've been soaking it but I have a sense that what little penetrant actually goes down around the stud hasn't gone nearly far enough. The far side of the head popped loose easily but with a stuck stud toward each end the manifold side won't budge. The wax may help, certainly worth a shot.

 

[Mobuck]

"Use a blunt hammer head and rattle on the top of the stud while pulling up on the head."
Use EXTREME CAUTION if trying this as it's very easy to swell/rivet the exposed end of the bolt. This may sound extreme but another possibility would be to use the cutter from a hole saw that fits snugly over the bolt to cut a shallow groove that may allow the penetrating fluid to seep deeper.

 

[showcrop]

I agree with Moresmoke and Barnyard. The problem is the rust builds up pressure in the hole through the head. Heat the stud then melt wax in. Repeat heat cool cycle three times. Expansion-contraction is a powerful force, and will release the pressure.