Bulk feed bin energized

[J Wendt]

I was putting the door in my feed bin after cleaning it for new feed. Should mention we are super saturated here. I thought Had one of those little finger twinges you get sometimes but it kept repeating(I'm slow) realized it was the fencer very slight. there is no hot wire within 20 feet the 3 ground rods are close by. I checked the feed bin getting between 200 and 500 volts, nothing on ground rods. Fence had 2.7K grass and feed are really dragging it down. the feed bin is on silo staves on crushed rock. should I ground the tank back to the ground rods. But still don't understand why the feed tank should be pulsing like that.

 

[used red MN]

Interesting that you didn't get a reply yet. The self-proclaimed electrical gurus must be busy elsewhere. My question is does the bin have an auger and electric motor? If so, it or its wiring is far more likely to be the source of your stray voltage. Also, 3 ground rods for what? Nearby electrical service? I assume by "no hot wire within 20 feet" means a charged fence wire? One meter lead was touching the bin, what were you connecting the other lead to?

 

[J Wendt]

It does have an electric motor, the pulse may be coming in on the neutral and ground, I thought of that this morning also. Haven't got around to checking idea. I do know it goes away when you unplug the fencer. The ground rods are only for the fencer.

 

[used red MN]

So the statement "no hot wire within 20 feet" did mean a charged fence wire? Where does the fence run otherwise? Close to other buildings that have electrical service? Is this on an older farmstead with normal older electrical service to out building? Check anywhere the fence might be near or connect to one of the buildings with electrical service, any where permanent metal corral or pen fencing is running. I would say there is a possibility you have a neutral/ground bonding problem in the electrical service on your property. Three ground rods is interesting to me. On the farm in KS we would just connect the ground to one steel push in post with the little triangle plate on the bottom and flip her on.

 

[J Wendt]

I even get the pulse with the feedbin motor disconnected there is no metal connection other than on the staves, no anchor bolts. And yes it is an old barn and wiring. none of the fence wires are touching any of the barn wiring. I'm pretty sure it has a lot to do with the excess moisture in the ground. I am feeding hay because the pastures are so wet. I left tracks mowing part the lawn. I'll never get the hay mowed its so wet.

 

[used red MN]

Is feed bin motor permanently wired? Not just plugging in? And you have the wire completely off? Very interesting, the electrical gurus on here are going to have this thing cranked up to a hundred replies when they see this. If the wiring is correct it should ground the motor frame and I would think that would ground any stray EMF’s floating around in the air juicing up your bin. Even if it plugs in it would ground it if everything is correct. Better put on your tin foil hat! FYI, I work at the refinery just up the road from you.

 

[J Wendt]

the worst is, I'm a retired Journeyman electrician and it has me baffled.

 

[MJMJ]

Can you just unhook the electric fence from the charger, just to figure out if its coming through the saturated ground like you suspect?

 

[used red MN]

Can you just unhook the electric fence from the charger, just to figure out if its coming through the saturated ground like you suspect?

Not sure what you’re asking, but in reply 3 he says it stops when he unplugged the charger. I think he means he suspects the voltage is coming through the saturated earth, from the charged fence due to foliage contacting it around the perimeter. You are proposing to disconnect the charger from the fence and operate it disconnected to see if it still causes a problem? I wonder if silo stave material would be conductive or not? Should just be some form of cement

 

[RJKeith]

Is your feed bin directly tied to ground? I Is your service to the building where your feed bin is located grounded? I assume you have a service to your house, and feed outbuildings from there. I am thinking different ground potentials between the house and outbuildings.

 

[J Wendt]

Every building has its own service from the center pole. all grounded separately. Another thing I wonder about is it also pulsing to the water system, I would hope not as it is in the ground. My meter is Fluke is not real good at picking up the pulse as they are so quick but I do get a repeated beep. the feed tank i snow grounded but it shouldn't have to be.

 

[RJKeith]

Every building has its own service from the center pole. all grounded separately. Another thing I wonder about is it also pulsing to the water system, I would hope not as it is in the ground. My meter is Fluke is not real good at picking up the pulse as they are so quick but I do get a repeated beep. the feed tank i snow grounded but it shouldn't have to be.

So there goes that theory. How far is the feed bin from your service ground? And did grounding the feed bin fix the finger twinge? Still not entirely ready to give up on the different ground potential. Though different ground potential would be constant, you say it is pulsing, which is what an electric fence charger does.

 

[chcase]

I was putting the door in my feed bin after cleaning it for new feed. Should mention we are super saturated here. I thought Had one of those little finger twinges you get sometimes but it kept repeating(I'm slow) realized it was the fencer very slight. there is no hot wire within 20 feet the 3 ground rods are close by. I checked the feed bin getting between 200 and 500 volts, nothing on ground rods. Fence had 2.7K grass and feed are really dragging it down. the feed bin is on silo staves on crushed rock. should I ground the tank back to the ground rods. But still don't understand why the feed tank should be pulsing like that.

Some years ago had about the same thing happen. It wasn't a feed bin but a small steel walk thru gate. Called a good friend that had electrical schooling. Figured it was the fencer. Disconnected the fence but left ground wire connected and plugged fencer back in still kept getting shock at gate. Then Disconnected the ground wire to fencer, no more shock. He claimed he got no reading at ground rod with fencer connected. I happen to have a new fencer in a box so I installed that and was good to go. Sent old fencer in for repair and they claimed it was good. I JUNKED that fencer when I got it back. Now years later I still using the new fencer for a fence around the garden since all cattle are gone. Buddy still laughs about that deal as I thought I had a major electrical problem at the time Weird things happen.

 

[J Wendt]

There are multiple grounds on the fencer and feed tank. T en feet from the service ground. Not sure on the finger twinge as I am not one to keep checking it with my finger. The meter says it was still there. I'm sure it's a stray voltage problem.I will put in more ground rods and see if that helps. If the fencer is unplugged it goes away. It is a brand new fencer. I have a call into the fencer company. I'll see what they have to say. I probably never would have know about it if I had not been sitting on the wet ground under the bin putting the door back in. When I am getting feed the floor is dry inside and I don't touch any metal parts. Who knew??

 

[chcase]

I was putting the door in my feed bin after cleaning it for new feed. Should mention we are super saturated here. I thought Had one of those little finger twinges you get sometimes but it kept repeating(I'm slow) realized it was the fencer very slight. there is no hot wire within 20 feet the 3 ground rods are close by. I checked the feed bin getting between 200 and 500 volts, nothing on ground rods. Fence had 2.7K grass and feed are really dragging it down. the feed bin is on silo staves on crushed rock. should I ground the tank back to the ground rods. But still don't understand why the feed tank should be pulsing like that.

Are you lucky enough to have another fencer or a neighbor who has one sitting around to totally rule fencer out?? At the time I had issues my buddy had brought 3 different meters with him and checked the wiring at the barn and house before my wife told him that when she touched the gate it was like touching the electric fence. That is when we checked the fencer.

 

[Janicholson]

The pulse may be coming from induction into the bin from the fence. If the bin is well grounded it would probably not show the pulse. Thousands of volts in a wire is an antenna that broadcasts magnetism. the bin is a pretty good antenna for receiving the magnetism and turning it into electricity. Jim

 

[used red MN]

First off I want to make sure you are aware or have addressed the water supply for your livestock. How are they being watered? If their only source is an automatic waterer have you witnessed them using it with no hesitation? Just want to make sure they have a proper water source that is not affected by this. Obviously automatic water connects to water lines and usually an electrical connection to operate the anti-freezing system
This is interesting, I found a “fence controller” instruction booklet for multiple units offered by Tractor Supply. Electric Fencer manual (refer to pages 8 and 13-15) [crap I forgot that YT blocks links to TS so I am adding a picture. If you search “fence charger manual” it will pop up] It says “the ground rods should not be installed within 50 feet of an electrical service ground rod or buried metal water lines.” Not sure what this means in this application because he the OP said the tank was still showing as energized when all service wiring was disconnected.
Down the line the comment by chcase I read another story on the same type of stray voltage from a n electric fence. The outcome was similar, a different charger eliminated the problem.
I think JAN has your answer, this is exactly where I was going to go but I did not know the technical terminology for it. My answer would have been more down the lines of… isn’t there a claim that Nikola Tesla had discovered a way to transfer electrical power through thin air? I am a licensed amateur radio operator. In the training to test for your license you are instructed in the effects of electromagnetic field exposure (EMF) radio waves are essentially electrical waves passing through the air. An amateur is licensed to legally transmit at power levels of up to 1500 watts. An incorrect antenna system can expose you to dangerous EMF levels, skin contact withn the antenna can give you burns. My son was messing around with a ham setup in his truck in the garage. That system was a 100 watts, when he transmitted his voice came into the speakers on my computer in the house 50 ft away.

 

[used red MN]

Adding, the OP never answered my question about what he was testing the potential of the bin against? One meter lead on the bin the other where? Could it be that the ground around the bin is actually energized by the fence ground rods and the connection (bodily?) to the insulated bin on the staves is energizing the bin? Essentially equivalent to “plugging something in”?? But I don’t know I think he said he has grounded the bin.

 

[bc]

With my limited experience on this, I just see a different ground potential due to the wet ground. Where is the termination point of the electric fence in relation to the bin and is it shorted to ground? For the fence to work when something touches the wire it sparks through the animal down to the ground and the current travels through the ground to the ground rod(s) to complete the circuit. It travels easier through wet ground and one rod works fine. With dry ground you have to add more ground rods for the current to reach to them which sounds like your situation.

All that moisture you have could cause the fence wire to be shorting through a wet weed to ground or jumping across an insulator to a post, etc.

Anyway all the wet ground around the bin and the fence charger and whatever is causing the fence to short to ground, whether or not the bin is directly in the middle, is allowing some current to attract to the bin and it can do the same to metal water tanks so animals won't drink because of the shock.

I've had insulators get wet or high charges jump across insulators or weeds short fences to ground or high humidity help create a short. I would be looking for a short somewhere. When it dries up your problem will likely go away for a while.

You can take a fence tester and go around checking voltage to look for shorts or sometimes you hear them. I have made a homemade fence checker so I can know if deer or something went through the wire. Get a spark plug and plug wire, trim the end of the wire and wrap it around the fence wire, wrap and tape a bare wire around the base of the plug, and run it to the ground. You may have to widen the gap to get the spark and noise you want. I put it near the termination point.

Also wear tennis shoes to avoid shocks when working around the fence.

 

[Steve in VA]

The pulse may be coming from induction into the bin from the fence. If the bin is well grounded it would probably not show the pulse. Thousands of volts in a wire is an antenna that broadcasts magnetism. the bin is a pretty good antenna for receiving the magnetism and turning it into electricity. Jim

You make a good point. The metal standing rigging on my old sailboat would give you a pretty good nip when within sight of, but a distance away from, power lines. Of course we're talking much higher voltage and grounded in contact with water but you point still stands. I've been watching this post to see if anyone went that direction.