Steve@Advance
Well-known Member
Not true.
Still not a good practice to leave them sitting on the concrete floor. Any moisture that collects under them will likely etch the concrete, a permanent reminder of the battery that was sat there many years ago.
Still not a good practice to leave them sitting on the concrete floor. Any moisture that collects under them will likely etch the concrete, a permanent reminder of the battery that was sat there many years ago.
Stephen Newell
Well-known Member
Well, any battery will discharge sitting anywhere. It takes use and frequent charging to keep it healthy.
Janicholson
Well-known Member
- Location
- Central MN St. Cloud
No it will not go dead any faster than it would sitting half submerged in a bucket of mineral water. Way old
batteries were really bad and would go bad at rest far more easily than today's. People put well water in them and
they didn't last long. No electrons or electrolyte gets through the poly used in today's cases. All batteries do
go dead on their own. Jim
batteries were really bad and would go bad at rest far more easily than today's. People put well water in them and
they didn't last long. No electrons or electrolyte gets through the poly used in today's cases. All batteries do
go dead on their own. Jim
Russ from MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Bemidji MN
Like Ray said, it was more common with the hard rubber cases. Regardless where a battery is, I try to have a piece of rubber
or plastic under it, and if a battery is real dirty and damp it will discharge faster. Most of my batteries sit for 4 months
over winter without any charging or use, in cold storage and the survive just fine. The one that failed this spring was in a
lawn tractor in my heated shop!
or plastic under it, and if a battery is real dirty and damp it will discharge faster. Most of my batteries sit for 4 months
over winter without any charging or use, in cold storage and the survive just fine. The one that failed this spring was in a
lawn tractor in my heated shop!
Ted in NE-OH
Well-known Member
old wives tail. We install batteries in steel boxes on tractors , steel is a very good conductor. The only
way a battery discharges is from one terminal to the other terminal or internally.
Batteries will very slowly discharge with time no matter what they set on and at the same rate because it is
internal.
way a battery discharges is from one terminal to the other terminal or internally.
Batteries will very slowly discharge with time no matter what they set on and at the same rate because it is
internal.
Yes, it was true in around 1920 when batteries were designed a lot different then today and the plates sat inside a wooden box.
All lead-acid batteries have a built-in self-discharge rate and go dead when hooked to nothing. It makes no difference if on the ground or up
in the air somewhere. 5% discharge per month is normal for a battery in good shape.
All lead-acid batteries have a built-in self-discharge rate and go dead when hooked to nothing. It makes no difference if on the ground or up
in the air somewhere. 5% discharge per month is normal for a battery in good shape.
M-MAN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Bostic, NC
Here we go again.
I will agree with showcrop on this one.
He was even kind enough to explain the
why. Doesn't matter though as the only
way to change someone's mind on this is
to try it yourself. That's what I did
when I was told it would happen decades
ago. Didn't work out too well for me but
I learn from my mistakes. Your battery,
your call but don't say you weren't
warned.
I will agree with showcrop on this one.
He was even kind enough to explain the
why. Doesn't matter though as the only
way to change someone's mind on this is
to try it yourself. That's what I did
when I was told it would happen decades
ago. Didn't work out too well for me but
I learn from my mistakes. Your battery,
your call but don't say you weren't
warned.
Here's the deal, SURE a battery will eventually "discharge if left on the ground" THATS INDEED TRUE
HOWEVER it's also true a battery will eventually discharge at the same rate (given same ambient conditions) "Even if NOT
left on the ground"
The chemical and physical properties of a battery causes a normal SELF DISCHARGE regardless if on the ground or not. Batteries and materials and cases and enclosures are NOT what they were 50 to 100 years ago
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm anytime an electrical or a legal question is asked look at allllllllll the responses (including yours truly)
John T
HOWEVER it's also true a battery will eventually discharge at the same rate (given same ambient conditions) "Even if NOT
left on the ground"
The chemical and physical properties of a battery causes a normal SELF DISCHARGE regardless if on the ground or not. Batteries and materials and cases and enclosures are NOT what they were 50 to 100 years ago
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm anytime an electrical or a legal question is asked look at allllllllll the responses (including yours truly)
John T
Mutt and Jeff
Member
It depends on the oil that was used in the vehicle last
30 weight will absolutely create a discharge condition
but use of the most modern synthetic low viscosity lubricants will create a positive or charging effect
It has to do with molecular neutrino particularization
For years it was determined that the simple fact of cement in contact was the culprit but with modern scientific process it is now understood
30 weight will absolutely create a discharge condition
but use of the most modern synthetic low viscosity lubricants will create a positive or charging effect
It has to do with molecular neutrino particularization
For years it was determined that the simple fact of cement in contact was the culprit but with modern scientific process it is now understood
timcasbolt
Well-known Member
- Location
- Cecil County, MD
Ok, that was pretty funny. Are you related to Cliff Clavin?
Mutt and Jeff
Member
I think it may have resulted from the removal of zinc.
Perhaps the culprit creating the conductive metallic path.
Perhaps the culprit creating the conductive metallic path.
M-MAN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Bostic, NC
Sorry but you're pretty much contradicting your earlier post when you stated Clean. Yes dry wasn't there but showcrop pretty much said the same thing as you. Different conclusion but your's included an "if". Just playing but I've never seen anyone wash and dry a battery when taking it out much less keeping it dusted and dry. Lol
I am not a battery "Scientist." That said, I take the time to read what was current science back when "primary" and "secondary" storage
batteries were something new. I have hundreds of pages of what was current tech on batteries from the late 1800s to the early 1900s.
The problem of acid-soaked wood battery cases causing discharge used to be a common issue. Not just and issue of being on a concrete floor
but . . . From the hundreds of historic tech documents I have read, it seems the concrete floor story got its start from the problem of
acid-soaked wood battery boxes.
Current tech certainly proves that a modern battery does not increase in self-discharge just from being on a floor.
batteries were something new. I have hundreds of pages of what was current tech on batteries from the late 1800s to the early 1900s.
The problem of acid-soaked wood battery cases causing discharge used to be a common issue. Not just and issue of being on a concrete floor
but . . . From the hundreds of historic tech documents I have read, it seems the concrete floor story got its start from the problem of
acid-soaked wood battery boxes.
Current tech certainly proves that a modern battery does not increase in self-discharge just from being on a floor.
As always, Legal or Electrical questions draw the most responses and opinions. Just sayin
That being said, it appears the general consensus and opinions and postings are for the most part, pretty much in agreement THATS NOT ALWAYS THE CASE HERE LOL which is as follows:
A modern battery, all things being equal, will NOT discharge at any higher rate regardless if on the ground or elsewhere.
Nuff said, draw your own conclusions.
John T
That being said, it appears the general consensus and opinions and postings are for the most part, pretty much in agreement THATS NOT ALWAYS THE CASE HERE LOL which is as follows:
A modern battery, all things being equal, will NOT discharge at any higher rate regardless if on the ground or elsewhere.
Nuff said, draw your own conclusions.
John T
xactly correct. Wood battery boxes is where this all started and it was valid then, and in the hundred years since, those not in the know continue to propagate a story that has no current day validity. A couple of folks here are not really addressing the 'discharge by sitting on earth or concrete, but rather a terminal to terminal discharge across the top of a dirty battery!! That can and does happen while in use in any vehicle & has absolutely nothing to do with where the battery sits.
showcrop
Well-known Member
Well JMOR, Congratulations! You have come most of the way around. From the start of this I never took it as a question of where or when it started, but as how it can affect any of us today. That is how I took RTR's original question. I have sustained damage to some things in my shop due to humidity, so two years ago I put a dehumidifier in. My concrete floor is always cooler than most other things in there, so things on the floor will attract more condensation, and perhaps most peoples shops are dust free but mine is certainly not.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Theoretically possible if the bottom of the battery was "cold" and the top of the battery was "hot".
M-MAN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Bostic, NC
Pretty sure ground temperature is most
always colder than ambient. Hmm?
always colder than ambient. Hmm?
You misunderstand my intent, and my earlier post is, indeed, incomplete.
Any parasitic conduction path between terminals will increase discharge rate, regardless of whatever surface the battery is stored.
Removing a battery from an application may well disturb corrosion or other debris on/near the terminals or cables resulting in new discharge paths on the surface of the battery. Such circumstance may well have contributed to the rather common urban myth.
No contradiction.
Dean
Any parasitic conduction path between terminals will increase discharge rate, regardless of whatever surface the battery is stored.
Removing a battery from an application may well disturb corrosion or other debris on/near the terminals or cables resulting in new discharge paths on the surface of the battery. Such circumstance may well have contributed to the rather common urban myth.
No contradiction.
Dean
On this subject, any lead-acid battery loses capacity as it gets colder. This is not a "discharge." Just a matter of how the electric-
chemistry works at different temps. So if your room temp is 70 degrees F and floor temp is 35 degrees F? If you sit the battery on the
floor and it gets cooler, it loses capacity. Warm it up and it goes right back where it ought to. As I recall, a typical FLA (conventional
flooded lead-acid battery) loses 50% capacity at 10-20 degrees below zero F(as compared to 70 degrees F). This is why cars, trucks, and
tractors come equipped with at least twice the battery they need to start well in warm temps.
chemistry works at different temps. So if your room temp is 70 degrees F and floor temp is 35 degrees F? If you sit the battery on the
floor and it gets cooler, it loses capacity. Warm it up and it goes right back where it ought to. As I recall, a typical FLA (conventional
flooded lead-acid battery) loses 50% capacity at 10-20 degrees below zero F(as compared to 70 degrees F). This is why cars, trucks, and
tractors come equipped with at least twice the battery they need to start well in warm temps.
Russ from MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Bemidji MN
I agree, the battery looses capacity as it get's colder, but it discharges slower because the chemical action slows down, I was told this by a person educated on the subject many years ago. That's why I never bring batteries in to a warm building for winter storage, if they're any good they won't freeze, and if they're no good it doesn't matter!
Ken Macfarlane
Well-known Member
As noted, the battery won't discharge on the floor but here a better reason to stick something under the battery. Often there is acid boiled over from over charging, or filling etc that has
run down onto the case and dried. When you set that battery on a damp concrete floor, the acid will etch the floor leaving a white pattern.
Have a nice pattern of white squares inside the door of my shop to remind me of this every time I enter it.
run down onto the case and dried. When you set that battery on a damp concrete floor, the acid will etch the floor leaving a white pattern.
Have a nice pattern of white squares inside the door of my shop to remind me of this every time I enter it.
Good point, despite the facts as noted below regarding modern batteries, I usually have a piece of 2 x 10 handy to lay down first if I have to sit a battery on the garage concrete floor. Usually I place them on a wooden shelf as I don't like things (battery or otherwise) other then necessary laying on my garage floor.
Best wishes
John T
Best wishes
John T
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