Case 1070 weird problems.

[witty73]

I just drained the hydraulic / rear end oil out of my 1973 1070 to change filters and replace with clean oil. It has been awhile and I wanted to treat the old girl to some maintenance. complete drain, new filters, pulled sight glasses to clean them and reinstall. Got everything back together, and I filled it with 12 gallons, which puts if over two sight gauges. The book says 16 gallon. I started the tractor, let it idle, turned wheels side to side to bleed air, and when I got out to put more oil in, both sight gauges are white with oil that looks like it is full of air. I pulled the cap off the filler, and the same air filled oil bubbles out. I am at a loss.

Any ideas?

 

[kevinthefixer]

What did you use for oil?

 

[TomVAC]

If the oil level is too low it will make foam. Add more oil?

 

[witty73]

12 gallons was enough to cover both sight gauges, with the expectaion that I would have to add some more once the filters and pump were full. the really odd part is that it was bubbling out the fill hole when the tractor was running. I am going to leave it over night and add some more in the morning.

 

[witty73]

Premium Quality Cenex brand hydraulic fluid. It is what has been used in it for years.

 

[witty73]

So the hydraulic oil aside, the other issue I am having is with the starter, and this one is even more odd. Started out about 2 weeks ago with a starter that need tapping with a hammer to engage and start the tractor. I took it off, had it professionally gone through, put a new solenoid on it, and put it back on the tractor. The first time I used the tractor, the starter kept turning even after the tractor was running, had to take the cable off to get it to stop. Thought it was a bad solenoid, so I bought a better one and put it on only to have the same problem. at this point I thought it was the ignition switch, so i ordered a new one from case, and put that in, only to have the same problem again. Long story short, I am on solenoid number three, and switch number one. All wiring is original and intact. I am at a loss.

 

[Nedd]

970 and 1070 tractors have a 10 tooth gear on the starter. Many people put a 12 tooth starter on from a 930 or 1030 and it will work but often sticks in or grinds gears. Check the tooth count on your starter.

 

[1370rod]

If the only thing you did was change oil and filters my first thoughts are something wrong with the oil. Even if air was introduced into the oil it seems odd it would foam that bad, Rod.

 

[1370rod]

If the armature is bent slightly the drive can hang-up after it engages. I have also seen frost and rust on the plunger that slips into the solenoid cause similar problems. Remove the starter and secure it in a large vise where you can bench test it with a battery. Then you can experiment there rather than on the tractor, Rod.

 

[witty73]

It got a new plunger when it was gone through, and the technichian said it check out ok on the bench, but I better try it myself to see if I can replicate it off the tractor. bummer if I didnt need the new switch

 

[witty73]

Good to know, but thats not the problem I am having. It keeps spinning, but the drive isnt engaged...sort of sitting there whirring. Oh, and tonight at one point I guess it kept cranking even with the switch off and the fuel stop pulled out.

 

[casecollectorsc]

Low battery voltage will weld the disc in the solenoid to the posts. Might pull the front off the solenoid and clean the disc and posts.

 

[LPakiz]

Witty,
Next time the starter is turning when it shouldn?t be, remove the small, ?activator? wire from the solenoid. If it still turns, the problem is in the solenoid or starter. If removal of the wire stops the starter from rotating, the activator wire is getting power from somewhere.
This test shows you which way to go to find your problem.

 

[John Saeli]

I hope it isn't straight "hydraulic" fluid. Needs to be Transmission-Hydraulic Fluid. BTW, if I read the scroll correctly, you only installed 12 gallons which is no where near enough.

 

[witty73]

It is quiklift HTB which is advertised as their hydraulic, transmission and wet brake oil

 

[witty73]

A quick update on the oil situation. It has sat in the shop over night and the oil looks as if it has returned to normal in the sight gauges meaning it is not all white and full of air. Rather it has returned to its normal dark green color. Both sight gauges are completely full though, but I haven't started it. Since mother nature gave us about 8 inches of snow last night, I guess I will get to test the starter and oil situation shortly. Thanks for all the replies, it really helps.

 

[Ron Sa]

Seems like you have a hydraulic pump sucking air as well as oil.

 

[witty73]

Im Thinking the same, though I dont know what could have happened between filter change. Or even how to go about diagnosing it.

 

[Ron Sa]

I looked in my 1170 parts book at the hyd pump inlet system. It is really low in the oil so I have changed my mind about my previous post------the pump sucking air.

The more likely problem is the main oil return stream is above the oil level. The possible "4 gallon shortage" could possibly make the oil level be below this return stream of oil. We are all familiar with filling a bucket, or a small sprayer tank, with a garden hose. Letting the water crash onto the water level causes turbulence and forms bubbles. Stick the garden hose below the water level and bubbles no longer form. This is why hydraulic tanks have the oil return port down low under the oil level.

The @#$%^%$#@#$%$#@ sight gages on my 1170 always leave me guessing. Not one of my good tractor's likeable features!!!!! Maybe your sight gages are more distinct. I do not use green oil so my clean and clear oil tends to not show itself distinctly thru the fuzzy sight gages.

I have three alternatives. The most straight-forward alternative is unscrew the bottom sight gage and use it like a normal plug used to check oil levels. Normal check plugs don't lie---either oil weeps out or it don't.

My second alternative that I usually did (trying very hard not to cuss) was drive the tractor around for a few minutes which forms the normal thin layer of foam on the surface of the oil level. On a nearby terrace with a flash light in hand, I first lean the tractor slightly to the left which tends to bring the low oil level up into the sight gages.

With a lot of luck the thin layer of foam will be visible at the center of one of the sight gages. If that did not work, lean it to the left a little more---then a little more---**&^%^&**&^!!!! Okay no luck, do the same procedure leaning the tractor to the right so maybe the thin foam level will come down into one of the sight gages.

As a last resort, I looked the tractor over for hydraulic seeps----if any seeps are found I just dump in a gallon of oil and call it good!!! LOL

Old age, and much difficulty now getting down under the tractor and back up again, drove me to the third alternative----make a dipstick to put down thru the oil fill hole. With a pair of long-nose pliers and a length of heavy wire, I forming the wire into a shape that "only a mother could love" LOL

Here is how I made my cuss-free dip stick!!!

1. On a level concrete floor, I measured and determined how much higher the rim of the inlet fill tube was above the upper sight gage.

2. I formed an small eyelet at one end of the wire so I could store the dipstick on a hook inside the cab.

3. A couple inches beyond the eyelet, I "double kinked" the wire forming an offset(double 90 degree opposite bends close together) to use as a stop against the rim of the fill hole.

4. I went beyond the first double kink the measured distance in step 1. and formed another double kink offset--another couple of 90 degree opposite bends close together.

5. I left 2 inches of straight wire sticking down beyond the second kink. The full mark is at the second kink.

The dip stick is basically straight with two short offsets and an eyelet. The storage hook inside the cab was already there---to hang my little combination wrench on that I need to bleed the brakes about once a month. I still like my 1170---warts and all!!!! Two tools on one hook.

This is my sight gage horror story for your mid-winter entertainment----or not!!! LOL

Your starter problem seems somewhat like your bubble problem. The before and after differences was likely cause by the attempted "fix". Did the "professional" who tried to fix you starter leave out the return spring? or mess up the linkage between the solenoid and starter gear? or cause the helical spline to now bind up rather than slide? or substitute the solenoid. Stuff happens!!!!

 

[witty73]

Here is where I am at. I am on a new solenoid and so far, no problems. Thinking things through, I believe the switch was causing the solenoid to be hot at times it shouldn't, causing the starter to spin unwanted. The only way to stop it was to pull the hot wire, which took a bit of time and finesse with the wrench so as not to weld in the process. The third solenoid I thought was good was actually on the tractor for one of those episodes and may have been damaged. I have a brand new on on it now, with the right wrench handy to try disconnecting the little wire if it happens again, which should help diagnose it further.

Oil is a different story. I have since added the additional 4 gallons to the system, and both site gauges are full of clean oil. As soon as the tractor starts, and the pump kicks in you can see the white bubbles start to creep into the site gauges, and shortly they are completely white. full hydraulic functionality the whole time. At this point I am going to drain the system, check the filters for any issues, and fill it back up with Case IH brand oil. It it still continues to pump air into the oil I will know I have a bigger problem. With any luck the viscosity of this cenex brand oil is just too low, and the problem will be solved. Expensive test, but at least I have three clean 5 gallon pail and plenty of other leaky equipment that might not be as picky.

look forward to the update. It will be joyous or curse word filled.

 

[Ron Sa]

I guess I am back to my original thought---pump sucking air.

Most non-carbonated fluids do not have gas/air embedded within them. We allowed Cat hydraulic systems to operate up to 250 degrees. We know normal hydraulic oil is really thin at that temperature. Air has to either be sucked into, splashed into, or aerated by a mist into oils. With all 16 gallons in, that seems to rule out splashing and aeration is a constant that cannot be avoided so that leaves air being sucked in.

Did you,by chance, happen to observe if the old oil was or was not entrapping air?

The included pictures are for my 1170. The hyd pump and part of the suction system is mounted above the tranny oil level. The 1070 might be different. I encircled areas and seals that are, or might be, encountering suction and allowing air to be pulled in. Porosity and cracks in casings sometimes develop.


You did not affect any of this by changing the oil so the question about what you might have observed about the old oil foaming. Typically one checks oil levels in the morning before start up after setting all night--- and may not notice a problem during operation if the system works okay or does not foam out the air vent.

 

[witty73]

I did not have this problem prior to the oil change. The only thing close would be if the oil level got a little low, you could notice the "air line" at the top of the oil level in the sight gauge. then of course it would go away when I would add some oil. We got a bunch of snow again today, so I will take a couple of photos just for everybody's entertainment.

 

[Ron Sa]

If there is not air being sucked in at the pump's suction or splashed in by the return flows, that leaves aeration. As we know, trannys can have both pressure lube and dip lube. Both of these cause oil to get slung in every direction causing a mist and aeration. Heavy mist lubrication tend to be, but not for all situations, adequate for gear teeth and bearings.

I know that some oils have an anti-foam agent added. I don't know but I expect most all hyd-trans oil and good hydraulic oils have this agent. I don't think this agent is intended to, or can, eliminate all bubbles and foaming.

Back to pump inlet sucking air. My 1170 pump has external pressure lines coming out of the pump. The 1070 might be the same. I would take a small piece of wood, a foot or so long, and with the pump running at idle put one end as close to the pump as possible and carefully put your ear on the other end. Listen for cavitation. I can't tell you exactly what that will sound like but it will be different that the normal whine. Probably a popping sound.

 

[chcase]

I had a problem like that once with a friend's 1070.He had the starter rebuild and they put a new plunger in the starter.Turned out the new plunger was a hair larger in diameter and would stay stuck in selenoid once started.went threw 2 selenoid and switch until I drug in the used parts box the owner got back from the rebuilder. There was not much difference in diameter.Werid things happen.

 

[witty73]

Still chasing my tail on this air in the oil issue. Havent had time to take the pump out and check the o rings as mother nature keeps us busy moving snow almost every day lately and right or wrong I need the old 10. I did however pick up a new set of filters for the heck of it, and changed them out to try and eliminate the problem. It did not eliminate it, however one thing I did notice was when I removed the drain plug at the bottom of the 25 micron (RED) filter canister, there was significant pressure. Enough to blow oil all over the side of the engine and the tire. Can anybody confirm if this is normal or not?