CaseIH continued

[Ron Sa]

Back on 9/22/11, Eldo case did a post titled CaseIH. A lengthy discussion and comparisons followed and is now probably lost in the weeds on page three of the Disscussion Form. j hikmper requested my list of pros and cons for my 4010 Deere.

Here is my list comparing not only my 4010 but also my recent experiences with the newer red and green tractors.

4010 PROS AND CONS

Prior to buying my used 4010, I started farming 40 years ago on a shoestring with a used 730 Case CK. Traded it for a used 930CK western special and later traded for a used 1170 with wide front and wide 20.8 rear tires. I have had the 1170 for 30 years. This 1170 with fat tires not being good for row crop, I purchased a used 400 Case O Matic for planting and cultivating. When I upgraded from 4 row to 6 row, the 400 got traded for the 4010. I was told the 10's and 20's were the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Compared to four Cases that I owned before I bought the 4010 and for the POSITIVE FEATURES , generally the 4010 steers easy, the brakes are strong and consistent. I give it good marks for being nimble. The shift pattern from 5th forward to high reverse is an inline movement of the gear shift. These things make the 4010 pleasant to operate for shuttle work, mowing in tight spots, etc. I have not had any durability issues with the 4010 but it is still a low hours tractor about 5000 hrs. The bigger 1170 and an 8830 Ford are used for the heavy grunt work so the 4010 is not worked hard.

NEGATIVE FEATURES. My very first disappointment with the 4010 was the day I drove it home from the local dealer where I bought it 20 years ago. I revved it up in road gear to my suprise 8th gear growled at me. BUMMER!!! None of the older Cases that I had previously or current owned had any powertrain noises.

Another disappointment with the 4010 was when cultivating and having to turn short at the ends, pressing hard on the brakes causes them to growl. BUMMER!!! Also, the front axle steering geometry is junk for turning sharp. The outer front tire plows a rut if the brakes are used just enough to cause the inner front tire to not skid during the turnaround. So for most cultivating turnarounds, I see crops getting uprooted by the outer front wheel plowing and also getting growled at by the brakes. DOUBLE BUMMER!!! No Case of mine has exhibited these problem.

My 4010 has a noisy hydraulic pump. It functions okay so I just endure the noise. BUMMER!!!. None of my Cases had hydraulic pump noises.

My 4010 has exhaust slobber. One has to love the Case 451 and 504 engine. My 1170 exhaust noise is as smooth as silk so this probably makes me notice the 4010's inherent, can't fixit, exhaust slobber. Exhaust slobber is caused by having the exhaust manifold's outlet located forward near the number one cylinder exhaust valve port. The 1170 has the exhaust outlet balanced midway between the front three and back three cylinders. The Case engine purrs and the 4010 engine slobbers.

My 4010 starts poorly even though the fuel injection system is not weak. In warm weather with the engine cold and quarter throttle, the 1170 fires strongly on about a cylinder's second compression stroke and one can quickly let go of the starter. For the same situation and needing at least half throttle, the 4010 has to be cranked several revolutions and then it begins to peck, peck, peck. If one keeps the starter engaged, it eventually pecks loud enough to start. The 4010's starter has been to the repair shop but the 1170 starter is still strong and never been off.

The 1170 has the more comfortable seat. I continue to be amazed at what green blood does to one's objectivity and to one's reluctance to drive a different color for a couple of days.

COMPARING THE NEWER RED AND GREEN TRACTORS

For a little background, my older brother lost much of his hearing due to running tractors without mufflers. This has made me very sensitive to what noises I allow my ears to experience. Thus, I use ear protections extensively. I even have a battery powered noise cancelation headset that removes the repetitive, reverbrating, low level, boom sounds that are generally present even in many of the newer tractor cabs. I am retired, 72, objective towards brands, and many of my farmer friends know that I can run equipment with little training and with out wrecking stuff. Therefore, I do a lot of fill in work operating the newer tractors and combines.

If I am ask to run a large, late model, row crop series, Deere tractor, I feel the need to wear my noise cancellation head set. If I am ask to run any Magnum, I feel free to leave my head set at home. Why? The later model,larger, mfwd, Deeres have a medium level, reverbrating, boom sound inside their cabs that my electronic headset helps to knocks down. Also when getting in and out of this size newer Deere, when one's unprotected ears are directly exposed to the engine, the Deere's engine idles with an ear pearcing noise. In many circumstances, tractors get use as a privacy shield to stop and take a pee. Standing close to an idling Deere really hammers the ears.

The Magnum is quieter in all respects. Being externally close to the Magnum is more pleasant to the ears and any reverbrating boom sound inside the Magnum's cab is low compared to the Deere.

The reason for the added noise in the newer Deeres has to do with a design characteristic that the 8000 and newer versions of that Deere mfwd have. The engine block is a structural member of the main frame. This makes the entire main structure of the Deere an amplifier of the engine's internal noises.

Unlike the larger Deere mfwd's, the Case Magnum uses frame rails and the engine sits on rubber mounts and thus not hard mounted to the main structure. Thus the row crop series Magnums do not have the engine's sound amplified and resinating into the cab. Being old and having to pee every hour, I can stop and pee in comfort close to the Magunum!!!!! LOL.

 

[700 man]

Have to agree,also anyone who has really run both I think would have to agree that from Cases first 8 speeds on they had more gears in working ranges,always thought deeres lows were to low and their hi's were to hi.Case's 12 speed ran circles around a Quad-Range.

 

[Dmack]

I have to agree with you on all your observations. I started farming with a highly experienced 830 eagle claw and later moved up to a confort king and as time went on, I managed to get ahold of a new 970 and 1175 and 1370. All these machines gave good service as i kept the 1175 for 26 years and the 970 until just the other day. With the exception of a little brake trouble from time to time, I just didn"t have any problems to speak of. These old soldiers kept me going through thick and thin for all my farming career. I always tried to keep an open mind in regards to different makes and models, however, I fail to see the big deal about the green machines that alot of folks are so proud of. At the end of my 30 plus year of farming I purchased a 7130 magnum and was well satisified with all the tractors qualities. I"ve had a couple of 2590"s also,and like the older case"s was well served with there performance. I doubt the newer tractors available in this day and age will still be earning there keep like the 30"s and70"s are.

 

[Anonymous-0]

One job I did not care for was to run a new 4455 tractor on the dyno. Very loud!!! When the newer Deere's change from pilot injection to direct injection, they get loud enough to hurt my ears.I get very tired of hearing how much better the green ones are than all the rest because they have never driven anything but green.

 

[970]

i think case was really ahead of there times with everything on the right side. compared to a 4020 with the hyraulics on the left side.

 

[Case Nutty 1660]

Kenny why do you think the late 4020's had a right hand console? LOL

 

[Brad Gyde]

I'm going to add in another I agree.

I have little experience for the most part.. But at work, we have a 7120 Magnum (that runs at pto speed running a pit pump) and a 9430 JD that we pull a Nuhn manure tank setup with..

I've sat in the seat of the Deere for about 2k hours now.. the Magnun closer to 50 hours.. Spent a bit of time in a 4960 Deere, and a few new 8430 Deere's (not the articulated tractors from the late 70's) as well.. It's hard to compare apples to apples because of the difference in operating times, and the differences in use as a whole..

Outside, yep, I'd say the CaseIH is a bit quieter than the rest seem.

From the inside, it seems pretty comparable, other than the turbo whistle on the Deere.. I swear, the whistle seems louder inside the cab than being on my open station 930 with the M&W turbo.. The 4960's and the 8430's never seemed as bad as the 9430..

Brad

 

[dbb62]

From the summer of 72 or 3 until we sold our two early 4020s (64 and 69 models) in 1981 I operated them for thousands of hours on our family farm and I sat on the fender watching my dad run them from the age of 4 or 5 until I took his place. The brakes don't growl, they have a sound that is music to my ears, and the exhaust does not slobber, those tiny fireballs are entertainment at 4 am to a sleepy kid who drew the short straw and got the night shift during round-the-clock plowing. Having dual hydraulics and the 3 pt lever up front on the left didn't bother me, I was like a dust-devil in a windstorm when I hit the end of the row; one arm working levers, the other whipping the wheel around, while my foot jammed on that break pedal. I remember dad saying not to baby those breaks - I couldn't hurt them, but I could darn sure break the front wheel off in fresh plowed ground if I didn't use them. I also don't remember ours being hard starters, but then we sometimes ran them literally 24 hrs a day and didn't shut them down to refuel or eat. I'm not saying 4020s are better than their Case counterparts but they are darn good machines. I am saying the sound, feel, and guts of that tractor are near and dear to my heart. I own two Cases (big 600, and DC), and love them, but no more or less than those Deeres because they remind me of a time long ago when life was simpler, and I felt like a king sitting up on that beast (that was soon dwarfed by the really big machines to come). I went to an auction not long ago and there was one there. It looked small and insignificant in comparison, but that was the one I wanted to crawl up on and admire - then the owner came over and told me to "start her up". It literally took me back 40 years in an instant. That "big" 6 cylinder diesel just purred. I wanted to throw her in road gear and take off, but common sense got the better of me. I didn't buy it, but I sure wanted to...and now you know why. I'll end my confession here - I love all old tractors because of what they represent. And I'll apologize for being a hopeless romantic that longs for simpler days, old tractors, and the time to spend on them.

 

[Ron Sa]

Thanks for your input and sharing your sentimental story. I hope that I did not imply that my 4010 was a bad tractor. I merely intended to say that is was not a perfect tractor. All tractors have their pros and cons.

Speaking of being sentimental. In the late 40s and 50s, I grew up first driving a Rumley DoAll before I became a teenager and then we had an unstyled B John Deere together with a C Case. Every tractor was old when Dad got them because dad was a victim of the 30s depression.

I am sentimentally attached to both the little B and the C Case. Fortunately we still have both tractors and they get priority for the driest place in the barns.

Unfortunately, dad's DoAll got scrapped immediately after being traded for the little B. If anyone wants to read about my DoAll adventues and dangerous mishaps as a young boy, click on Your Stories and search DoAll. My two brothers and I still sentimentally mourn about having lost dad's DoAll to the scrap man.

 

[dbb62]

Nope, you did not imply any such thing - and no offense at all. I found it ironic how the things you grumbled about were what I relished. I love my Grandfathers 49 Case D, that we cursed more than once, but sure wish we still had the L and some of the other early Cases he didn"t keep. I honestly find some beauty in all of them, regardless of color.

 

[Ron Sa]

I have tried to figure out why I have an interest in perserving old tractors. I guess the most fundamental answer is they elevated us ordinary humans out of pure slavery.

Before tractors, food and cotton for clothing was produced by slave labor and horses. Words cannot describe the horrors of slavery and the Civil War to end slavery in the mid 1800. Following the war, tractors began to appear and a person's efforts were easier and got multiplied. Today, one person sits in comfort atop 500 hp and the grocery store shelves are always full sofar and we export a lot of food. Thanks mainly to the tractor.

About the time the 30s vintage tractors were ready to retire, WW 11 removed most new tractors from production and the 30s tractors had to keep working. I have seen pictures of grooves in the front axle of an L Case said to be caused by wheat stubble.

The 50s vintage tractors represent what took the slavery out of my generation even though dad used 30s vintage tractors during the 50s. While in grade school, I experienced dad's last team of horses and farming with horses was the pits.

You mentioned your experience plowing. The most mind boggling plow story was told to me by an elderly gentleman in his 80s, in SE Kansas, who still had his B Allis. I ask him if it had been used much. He said that he and his brother farmed and that they plowed 400 acres one fall with the B Allis.

That is a one bottom mounted plow and about 20 hp. Do the math and that is about 2500 miles or about 800 hrs or 40 days and 40 nights. I remember that Kansas falls were cold and windy and a heat houser was only helpful going into the wind.

 

[massey333]

You did an apples to oranges with the 4010 thing,we would have to wonder how tractors would have turned out if JD hadn't came out with 3010s-4010s.They were far from perfect,however until AC came out with the 70xx seris,no one had a good braking,hyd,steering,comfort tractor for better then 20 yrs later.Case built a very-very good tractor,but until the 1990s never could put good working brakes and a user friendly hyd system.Yes I still have 2 Cases(830d &970)but all the main work is now done with JDs.(7x10s-8x10s)Deere didn't brainwash anybody,they didn't just go to sleep and rest on their past like others and you can see where it got them. Yes that 496 Deere engine is loud outside,but I have had people threaten me when running my 504 2670 all night too.

 

[Ron Sa]

Thanks for your reply. I can tell that you are an objective person. I grew up biased in favor of Chevys and Case tractor but my engineering career forced me to become objective. After driving a 57 chevy a quarter million miles and two more chevys, I have had a Plymouth, Dodge, a Peugeot, 2 Pontiacs, and now a Buick. I am okay with Fords but my wife is not so no Fords in our history.

Regardng apples to oranges, I did compared a 60s vintage Deere to a 10 years newer Case regarding, engine, hydraulics, and seat. I had traded a 60s vintage 930 CK western special row crop for the 1170 several years before I got the 4010. I do remember wishing that I would have gotten another 930 rather than the 4010. By the way, the 930 also had exhaust slobber for the same reason.

My beef with many, but certainly not all, John Deere users is they tend to not be willing to engage in an objective conversation about the cons of their brands nor talk the pros of another brand.

Prior to buying the 4010, my brother and also a friend at church for years strongly inferred that the 4010 and 4020 was PERFECT in every respect. Therefore, the 4010's imperfections were a let down for me from the gitgo.

As an engineer working on developing Cat's combine program in the 90's, two events stand out in my mind regarding SOME Deere owner's attitudes. Early in the program before we had any combine for sale, we put together a technical seminar where we parked several different brands of combines in a large room and for each brand we had invited owners of each brand to attend the seminar. One exercise was we gave the attendees a cab evaluation form and ask them to go around and sit in each brand and rate various features of the cab and operator's controls. Every brand owner willingly participated in an objective manner except the Deere owner. He was politely defiant and would not go sit in another brand of combine.

Weeks later in the fall, we went to a custom cutters convention in Okla. City intending to interview the users of all the various brands regarding what they liked and disliked about their brand of combine. Most all of the various brand owners were receptive and eager to let us know their pros and cons of their combine. Deere owners with rare exception were very mum and a tad arrogant. It was during the time that we knew that the 9000 series was in the midst of having straw walker bearing problems, the rotary brands were not grinding grain near a much, and some other issues. One Deere owner crossed his arm and with intentional negative body language said sternly-- There is nothing wrong with a John Deere combine.

 

[massey333]

Let me say this,the 70 seris Case had the best cab when they came out,maybe the best engine,however the Hyd controls and other control placement was not right for ????.My 1977 open station 8 speed 170-180HP 970(play thing now and it doesn't smoke)is beyond worthless on 3 point equip.that needs good control over.What Case had against float controls I will never know.Case IH was the worst thing that could happen,Good IH dealers were put out a lot of Case dealers went to Ford or Deere.95%of Case farmers went Deere and 85-90% of IH farmers went Deere.

 

[Ron Sa]

Regarding cab noise, my green blooded younger brother had a late 60s vintage 4520 Deere with a boombox cab. I had run his Deere so I knew about the noise level difference. Typical Deere owner, he had never looked for opportunity to run my 1170. However, I had looked for opportunity to MAKE him drive the 1170.

He and my older brother live about 500 miles from me and the three of us get together ocasionally at my place and usually end up playing with the antique tractors. On this particular ocasional, we decided to plow up terraces to make them higher but some of the terraces were very hard and the anique tractors were really struggling to throw any dirt. I went to the barn and got the 1170 and a chisel plow and started to chisel the hard terraces to loosen the ground. Now the antiques were moving along good.

Switching driving the antiques was typical so opportunity knocks!!!!---Lets switch and you run the chisel--I said to my green blooded brother. So for the first time Mr Greenblood is running the 1170. After a while, we again switch tractors. Mr Greenblood gets out of the 1170 with this half grin and half suprise look on his face. I am expecting some criticism to come out of his mouth. Instead he says---I CAN'T BELIEVE HOW QUIET THAT CASE RUNS!!!!!