Charging System Problem

[Tom in St. Louis]

I have a 52 8N. It was converted to a 12V, negative ground with alternator and a resistor before I bought the tractor about 10 years ago.

All of a sudden, the battery is not recharging. The battery is only about 2 years old and holds a charge okay. When the engine is running and I disconnect the battery, the engine quits.

I am thinking that it is a problem with the alternator or voltage regulator and I am trying to determine which it is.

Is there a way to check the alternator on the tractor without having to take it off and have it checked? The terminals on the back of the alternator are Grd(light blue wire), Bat (red wire), Fld (green wire) and Sta (black wire). I have a voltmeter but not an ammeter.

Is there a way to check the voltage regulator?

Thanks for any suggestions.

Tom

 

[Jim.ME]

(quoted from post at 17:34:20 10/18/21) I have a 52 8N. It was converted to a 12V, negative ground with alternator and a resistor before I bought the tractor about 10 years ago.

All of a sudden, the battery is not recharging. The battery is only about 2 years old and holds a charge okay. When the engine is running and I disconnect the battery, the engine quits.

I am thinking that it is a problem with the alternator or voltage regulator and I am trying to determine which it is.

Is there a way to check the alternator on the tractor without having to take it off and have it checked? The terminals on the back of the alternator are Grd(light blue wire), Bat (red wire), Fld (green wire) and Sta (black wire). I have a voltmeter but not an ammeter.

Is there a way to check the voltage regulator?

Thanks for any suggestions.

Tom

What alternator? External or internal regulator? Picture?

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 17:56:08 10/18/21)

(quoted from post at 17:34:20 10/18/21) I have a 52 8N. It was converted to a 12V, negative ground with alternator and a resistor before I bought the tractor about 10 years ago.

All of a sudden, the battery is not recharging. The battery is only about 2 years old and holds a charge okay. When the engine is running and I disconnect the battery, the engine quits.

I am thinking that it is a problem with the alternator or voltage regulator and I am trying to determine which it is.

Is there a way to check the alternator on the tractor without having to take it off and have it checked? The terminals on the back of the alternator are Grd(light blue wire), Bat (red wire), Fld (green wire) and Sta (black wire). I have a voltmeter but not an ammeter.

Is there a way to check the voltage regulator?

Thanks for any suggestions.

Tom

What alternator? External or internal regulator? Picture?

ood question, since you no doubt noticed that wiring does not match with the most common Delco 10-SI alternator.

 

[Tom in St. Louis]

The alternator is a Duralast from Autozone. The voltage regulator is separately remote mounted regulator. It is the old type, I think it has springs in it.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 20:18:38 10/18/21) The alternator is a Duralast from Autozone. The voltage regulator is separately remote mounted regulator. It is the old type, I think it has springs in it.

uralast is an Autozone nomenclature for many of their products, including batteries, and most likely for Ford, Chevy, Dodge, Toyota, Nissan, or all alternators & tells us nothing about what the alternator is from. some of us can identify with good pictures or numbers on unit.

 

[rvirgil_KS]

Sounds like an older Delco 10DN with external regulator. I would get rid of it and install a Delco 10SI with internal regulator

 

[Tom in St. Louis]

Okay, since it is dark, I will try to get a pic and more info tomorrow.

Thanks.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 20:44:45 10/18/21) Sounds like an older Delco 10DN with external regulator. I would get rid of it and install a Delco 10SI with internal regulator

hat is one of many 'guesses' virgil!

 

[Eman85]

If it's a GM style alternator with an external regulator do as suggested and replace it with a later model with an internal regulator.
As someone said Duralast is the stores brand name for their batteries and rebuilt alternators. You could use an alternator from an 80's GM car or truck and turn your old one in as the core.

 

[Jim.ME]

Just like playing the lottery. Take a guess you might be the winner.

Who knows it might be a Ford/Autolite/Motorcraft external regulated or a Motorola with a regulator mounted on it. Colors are pretty much useless info to me, alternator wasn't original so neither is the wiring. Best to wait until Tom in St. Louis returns with the info, not add to confusion.

 

[DennyD]

It cost me $100 to have a local shop rebuild the '70s-vintage Delco alternator on my 8N that wasn't charging the battery. It only took a few days to get it back.

One other thing as a side note: I'd defer to the experts here, but I wouldn't recommend disconnecting the battery on a running tractor, or you'll likely fry whatever's left of your alternator.

 

[Tom in St. Louis]

Okay, I have taken pics of the alternator, regulator and a wiring schematic I did several years ago.

The alternator is a Duralast 7078.

So, I am back to my original questions:

Can I test the alternator on the tractor? If so, how? Or, do I need to take it off and have it tested?

Can I test the regulator? if so, how?

 

[Jim.ME]

(quoted from post at 10:52:52 10/19/21) Okay, I have taken pics of the alternator, regulator and a wiring schematic I did several years ago.

The alternator is a Duralast 7078.

So, I am back to my original questions:

Can I test the alternator on the tractor? If so, how? Or, do I need to take it off and have it tested?

Can I test the regulator? if so, how?
<img src=https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cvphotos/cvphoto105176.jpg>

<img src=https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cvphotos/cvphoto105177.jpg>

<img src=https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cvphotos/cvphoto105178.jpg>

<img src=https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cvphotos/cvphoto105179.jpg>

It is an externally regulated Motorcraft (or clone). Duralast is an aftermarket rebuilder and 7078 is their part number.

The red and yellow wires connected to the resistor appear related to your ignition, not the alternator.

The S terminal of the regulator should go to the alternator Stator terminal.

The I terminal should not go to battery ground, it gets excitation power if anything.

Ground on the alternator should go to ground.

If I remember right, you unhook the field wire from the alternator and while running use a jumper wire to apply battery voltage to the alternator field terminal. A voltmeter should show an increase in voltage at the battery if the alternator is working.

 

[Hobo,NC]

https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?t=1387602

Test full field jump F to A

Fif. 21-6

 

[JMOR]

I'm with jim.ME , plus, I don't see how it could have ever worked as wired in the diagram & if wired like that, I believe that it would have destroyed contacts in the regulator. Pix is my idea of how it should be wired and may actually be wired & diagram just wrong.

 

[Tim PloughNman Daley]

THERE IS NO VOLTAGE REGULATOR when switching to 12V ---it gets removed with the GEN. 2 years old or two days old, battery can be junk -get it tested at a shop FIRST. When not in use, connect to a float charger like the DELTRAN BATTERY TENDER. NEXT, there is NO VOLTAGE REGULATOR used when doing a 12V switch over job. The OEM GEN and VR get removed from the circuit when doing a 12V, and install the ALT. You only need an external 1-OHM Ceramic resistor IF you intend to use your 6V Coil otherwise get a 12V coil and don't use one. FACT: 99.98% of all non-starting issues are due to mucked up wiring, regardless if 6V/POS GRN or 12V/NEG GRN but many are 12V done wrong from fellas who just don't know what end is up. GET WIRING PICTOGRAMS by JMOR for correct setups.

Tim Daley(MI)

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 14:27:05 10/19/21) THERE IS NO VOLTAGE REGULATOR when switching to 12V ---it gets removed with the GEN. 2 years old or two days old, battery can be junk -get it tested at a shop FIRST. When not in use, connect to a float charger like the DELTRAN BATTERY TENDER. NEXT, there is NO VOLTAGE REGULATOR used when doing a 12V switch over job. The OEM GEN and VR get removed from the circuit when doing a 12V, and install the ALT. You only need an external 1-OHM Ceramic resistor IF you intend to use your 6V Coil otherwise get a 12V coil and don't use one. FACT: 99.98% of all non-starting issues are due to mucked up wiring, regardless if 6V/POS GRN or 12V/NEG GRN but many are 12V done wrong from fellas who just don't know what end is up. GET WIRING PICTOGRAMS by JMOR for correct setups.

Tim Daley(MI)

im, external VR on some 12v alternators.....such as this fellow's.

 

[Tom in St. Louis]

Okay, thanks. When things were working right the tractor mounted voltmeter read about 14 volts. Now it reads 10-12 volts, which I assume is the battery voltage.

 

[Tom in St. Louis]

Well, it has been working like that for at least 10 years. I am not going to re-engineer the electrical system. If it ain't broke, dont fix it. I am trying to find out what is broke.

 

[JMOR]

As Jim.ME said, "

If I remember right, you unhook the field wire from the alternator and while running use a jumper wire to apply battery voltage to the alternator field terminal. A voltmeter should show an increase in voltage at the battery if the alternator is working." and HOBO showed in picture, just jumper Field to BATT (lrg red to green) and watch voltmeter.

 

[Jim.ME]

Tim,

While it is not likely one would want to use an externally regulated alternator for a conversion these days, when alternators first came into use most, if not all, were externally regulated. His picture clearly showed the type alternator and external alternator (not generator) regulator commonly found on Ford vehicles in that time period.

Tom in St. Louis,

For the couple simple changes required, I would correct the wiring, but it is your tractor, you say it worked before, so do as you please with the wiring.

And when you apply power to the field terminal, by either my or Hobo's directions, don't leave it in place long as this bypasses the regulator so the alternator voltage can go very high. If the battery voltage goes up when the fields are powered, the alternator is working and the regulator has likely failed.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 15:59:58 10/19/21) Tim,

While it is not likely one would want to use an externally regulated alternator for a conversion these days, when alternators first came into use most, if not all, were externally regulated. His picture clearly showed the type alternator and external alternator (not generator) regulator commonly found on Ford vehicles in that time period.

Tom in St. Louis,

For the couple simple changes required, I would correct the wiring, but it is your tractor, you say it worked before, so do as you please with the wiring.

And when you apply power to the field terminal, by either my or Hobo's directions, don't leave it in place long as this bypasses the regulator so the alternator voltage can go very high. If the battery voltage goes up when the fields are powered, the alternator is working and the regulator has likely failed.

F it once functioned, as he has said, then my $0.02 is on the idea that is is wired correctly, but not like what I see as an incorrect schematic as posted.

 

[Hobo,NC]

I never use/wire the stator wire unless I want to use it to power up a electric choke I don't thing a N uses a electric choke : ).

Think of it as a output for an accessory.

BTW there is not one thing wrong using a ford alternator and regulator they are as dependable as any.

 

[Tom in St. Louis]

PROBLEM SOLVED. As suggested, I ran a jumper from the field terminal on the alternator to the positive terminal on the battery. The voltage shot up so I knew the alternator was putting out. So I took a closer look at the voltage regulator and discovered that one of the connections was loose. Fixed that and now I get 14 volts on the tractor voltmeter.

Thanks to everyone for their suggestions and help.

Tom

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 11:53:51 10/20/21) PROBLEM SOLVED. As suggested, I ran a jumper from the field terminal on the alternator to the positive terminal on the battery. The voltage shot up so I knew the alternator was putting out. So I took a closer look at the voltage regulator and discovered that one of the connections was loose. Fixed that and now I get 14 volts on the tractor voltmeter.

Thanks to everyone for their suggestions and help.

Tom

lease tell us which of the 4 wires has a bad connection, I,A,S,F, Gnd.

 

[Tom in St. Louis]

I think it was the F terminal.

 

[Jim.ME]

(quoted from post at 10:14:46 10/21/21) I think it was the F terminal.

Good to hear you found the problem. If it was the F terminal, the alternator was not receiving any excitation power from the voltage regulator. And I am guessing the electronic regulator you have is for a system without an indicator light (they made a different one for the indicator light system). If so, the I terminal on yours isn't connected to anything, or you would have a short circuit with it grounded to the alternator, since the regulator would send voltage out on that terminal when the alternator was charging to turn an indicator light off.

 

[Tom in St. Louis]

There is no indicator light.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 14:52:29 10/21/21)

(quoted from post at 10:14:46 10/21/21) I think it was the F terminal.

Good to hear you found the problem. If it was the F terminal, the alternator was not receiving any excitation power from the voltage regulator. And I am guessing the electronic regulator you have is for a system without an indicator light (they made a different one for the indicator light system). If so, the I terminal on yours isn't connected to anything, or you would have a short circuit with it grounded to the alternator, since the regulator would send voltage out on that terminal when the alternator was charging to turn an indicator light off.

es, his VR photo looks like only 3 terminal connections plus GND, even though photo not the clearest

 

[Jim.ME]

Agreed, it looks that way. I guess what is important now is it charges. We might correct the wiring if we were doing it, but its his and he's happy with it wired as is.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 06:11:54 10/22/21)
Agreed, it looks that way. I guess what is important now is it charges. We might correct the wiring if we were doing it, but its his and he's happy with it wired as is.

e, I would correct the diagram....I bet it is wired OK, but not as the diagram shows.

 

[Jim.ME]

[u:87099a8971]IF[/u:87099a8971] the wires run as shown in his pictures by color and his drawing, at least the light blue wire is wrong. It is on the ground terminal of the alternator and the I terminal of the regulator. Alternator ground should go to a ground point, not the regulator's I terminal. So likely some of both, rewiring and redrawing, would be needed, if he wanted to change what he has.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 07:00:29 10/22/21)
[u:cc2ecdfb4e]IF[/u:cc2ecdfb4e] the wires run as shown in his pictures by color and his drawing, at least the light blue wire is wrong. It is on the ground terminal of the alternator and the I terminal of the regulator. Alternator ground should go to a ground point, not the regulator's I terminal. So likely some of both, rewiring and redrawing, would be needed, if he wanted to change what he has.

ultiple problems with diagram. In addition to creating a short circuit across battery by connecting I to ground(blue) which will burn something in red path, tieing the center of the "Y" winding (Stator) to ground (bold black) creates multiple problems. First, for 120 degrees of each cycle (1/3 rd of the time), one winding of stator is shorted as shown by orange loop (diode conducting). This will no doubt either hurt/destroy the diode or winding or at very least create a lot of heat in both. Secondly, it means that for 120 degrees one of the 3 coils that will be shorted is NOT contributing to the output ,or combined, full time 3 X120 =360 degrees the 3 are not contributing to the output. Thus overall output is too low, assuming something has not smoked. Conclusion: it simply can not function when wired
as the original diagram shows! We will probably never know how it is actually wired.

This post was edited by JMOR on 10/22/2021 at 11:06 am.

 

[Jim.ME]

And I'll add to the confusion. Here are the diagrams for the electronic regulators (which I believe his is) from my Motor's Truck manual. The diagram for the electronic regulator with an ammeter (no indicator light, which he said he does not have, only a voltmeter) shows nothing connected to the I terminal inside the case. That is why I said he is likely getting away with the ground hooked to it and not shorting out. I think he has the S terminal of the regulator wired to power from the ignition switch in his drawing, as shown in the drawing, as the ground wire will on the alternator stator terminal, as you pointed out. The drawing in the manual has nothing hooked to the alternator stator terminal when there is no indicator light. As you said we will likely never know how it is wired for certain.

 

[Tom in St. Louis]

Okay folks, enough is enough. My original post was for help trouble shooting the charging system on my 8N. I was asked for pictures, which I provided, along with a wiring schematic to help with the trouble shooting. With that said I have a few comments.

First of all, thank you to everyone who helped me with the trouble shooting. My post was not to kibitz on the wiring schematic I submitted.

The schematic I submitted IS the way the wiring is on MY 8N. I personally upgraded the wiring at least 10 years ago. I made the schematic drawing myself. That IS the way my 8N is wired. It has been working like that for at least 10 years. So..don't tell me that the wiring won't work or isn't right.

I do understand how this stuff works. I am a mechanical engineer...a real engineer. So.. don't tell me that it isn't right.

Again, thank you to everyone who helped with the trouble shooting. But, if you want to debate the proper wiring for an 8N, start your own thread. Don't hi-jack mine.

Tom

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 20:27:28 10/22/21) Okay folks, enough is enough. My original post was for help trouble shooting the charging system on my 8N. I was asked for pictures, which I provided, along with a wiring schematic to help with the trouble shooting. With that said I have a few comments.

First of all, thank you to everyone who helped me with the trouble shooting. My post was not to kibitz on the wiring schematic I submitted.

The schematic I submitted IS the way the wiring is on MY 8N. I personally upgraded the wiring at least 10 years ago. I made the schematic drawing myself. That IS the way my 8N is wired. It has been working like that for at least 10 years. So..don't tell me that the wiring won't work or isn't right.

I do understand how this stuff works. I am a mechanical engineer...a real engineer. So.. don't tell me that it isn't right.

Again, thank you to everyone who helped with the trouble shooting. But, if you want to debate the proper wiring for an 8N, start your own thread. Don't hi-jack mine.

Tom

echanical isn't electrical! So, how do you explain the shorted stator windings?

 

[wallytoo]

(quoted from post at 17:27:28 10/22/21) Okay folks, enough is enough. My original post was for help trouble shooting the charging system on my 8N. I was asked for pictures, which I provided, along with a wiring schematic to help with the trouble shooting. With that said I have a few comments.

First of all, thank you to everyone who helped me with the trouble shooting. My post was not to kibitz on the wiring schematic I submitted.

The schematic I submitted IS the way the wiring is on MY 8N. I personally upgraded the wiring at least 10 years ago. I made the schematic drawing myself. That IS the way my 8N is wired. It has been working like that for at least 10 years. So..don't tell me that the wiring won't work or isn't right.

I do understand how this stuff works. I am a mechanical engineer...a real engineer. So.. don't tell me that it isn't right.

Again, thank you to everyone who helped with the trouble shooting. But, if you want to debate the proper wiring for an 8N, start your own thread. Don't hi-jack mine.

Tom

yeah, that never goes well, telling folks you are more qualified than they are yet here you are asking questions about why it doesn't work. either get some humility, or figure it out on your own without asking the rabble for assistance.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 19:18:37 10/25/21)

(quoted from post at 17:27:28 10/22/21) Okay folks, enough is enough. My original post was for help trouble shooting the charging system on my 8N. I was asked for pictures, which I provided, along with a wiring schematic to help with the trouble shooting. With that said I have a few comments.

First of all, thank you to everyone who helped me with the trouble shooting. My post was not to kibitz on the wiring schematic I submitted.

The schematic I submitted IS the way the wiring is on MY 8N. I personally upgraded the wiring at least 10 years ago. I made the schematic drawing myself. That IS the way my 8N is wired. It has been working like that for at least 10 years. So..don't tell me that the wiring won't work or isn't right.

I do understand how this stuff works. I am a mechanical engineer...a real engineer. So.. don't tell me that it isn't right.

Again, thank you to everyone who helped with the trouble shooting. But, if you want to debate the proper wiring for an 8N, start your own thread. Don't hi-jack mine.

Tom

yeah, that never goes well, telling folks you are more qualified than they are yet here you are asking questions about why it doesn't work. either get some humility, or figure it out on your own without asking the rabble for assistance.

can explain every detail well beyond what 99% of the world's population is capable of understanding on this topic, so I don't really appreciate the "rabble" terminology. Note that original protested never returned to explain why it does not matter that his diagram shows shorted winding connections in the alternator. There is something amiss here for sure. And 'rabble' does apply to some if not many responders. Some reply without even knowing the details of which tractor, which alternator, etc., just assuming that the question applies to whatever they have experience with of their own.

 

[Tom in St. Louis]

They aren't shorted. The alternator is working fine.

 

[Tom in St. Louis]

I did not ask for a critique of the wiring on my tractor.

 

[Hobo,NC]

Well you posted it not them... Are you skeered you may learn sum'N... I did not need to know but always learn sum'N I did not know. Weather I will use it are retain it I enjoyed it...

Sourpuss you will live and get over it : )

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 20:09:01 10/25/21) I did not ask for a critique of the wiring on my tractor.

rue, but you got it! As Hobo said, pay attention & you might learn something. "Working" is being used rather loosely.

 

[Jim.ME]

(quoted from post at 20:09:01 10/25/21) I did not ask for a critique of the wiring on my tractor.

I asked for a picture of your alternator to figure out what type it was, since you only knew the auto parts store's name and part number, Duralast 7078. Yes, I could have done a web search at that point for Duralast 7078 and have figured it out, but you should have known the type system, in this case Ford/Motorcraft, you made the schematic for. You chose to post your personal wiring schematic, so you opened it to critique as we tried to help you diagnose the problem(s). You thought the regulator had springs (mechanical), when it is electronic, and clearly labelled "Motorcraft Electronic".

I did decide to search Duralast 7078 and on the Autozone site there was info about it, including a Technical Service Bulletin # TT-595. Here is a copy for your records. Looks like it has the same info we gave you. I have found I made errors on drawings before and had to correct them. I still wonder if that has happened on yours around the stator terminals of the alternator and regulator, given nothing has shorted out. Whatever, you are happy it is working, Have a good day.

 

[Btzj02]

Tom

Glad to hear the old N is running again. Keep in mind the greatest value of all threads is not necessarily to the person that started the thread but to the many of us that read the forum everyday. Many great ideas and trouble shooting techniques now come from this thread......Even though some of us think 12 volts is 6 volts too many!
JB :?