Clicking from solenoid

[dlk0247]

Hello All!

We have a 1943 Farmall M that was converted to 12V a while ago. Recently, I was able to get it started and ran it but it was misfiring really bad. Since the misfiring, I set timing, rebuilt the carb, and rebuilt the wiring harness. Since then, I have not been able to start it and now I hear a loud clicking sound coming from the solenoid. I tried replacing it but have not had any luck and continue to hear the loud click even in the new solenoid. I checked my connection point and made sure I'm not losing voltage. While doing so, I noticed I was only getting about 0.81-0.88 volts between the ignition and starter bolts on the solenoid.

Can anyone help me out with this at all?

 

[old]

Check and make sure the battery has 12.6 volts or more first. If it does good chance you have a poor battery cable connection either at the battery of ground or at the solenoid or a bad cable

 

[Janicholson]

There is no solenoid on an M from the factory. So we are actually powerless to help This might help from Bob M.
content revelant

 

[Bob M]

If the starter pinion has jammed into the flywheel ring gear it will cause the solenoid to click and do nothing else. It's a common problem when the ring gear teeth become worn.

Quick fix: If the tractor is on hard ground, put the transmission in 5th then rock it BACKWARD. It will only need to move an inch or two to free the starter (you will hear a clunk when it releases)

***OR***

Loosen the bolts that hold the starter to the bellhousing. Then pull/wiggle the starter as if to remove it. When you hear a clunk the pinion has released and you can now retighten the mounting bolts. The starter should now work again.

NOTE: If the pinion has jammed once it will jam again! The permanent fix is to replace the ring gear (been there, done that.....)

 

[Janicholson]

What concerned me (and why i didn't give unjamming info) is the replacement of the solenoid. I suppose we will find out.

 

[used red MN]

DLK welcome to YT! Okay I want to hit the highlights of the collective knowledge given so far and clarify some other items. First I will agree that it is highly likely that the starter drive has jammed in the flywheel, hopefully this is the case and you can use one of the suggested fixes and move on. The frequency that this repeats will have to be assessed as you get the tractor running and use it more. At that point you can determine how far you want to go to fixing that problem. The voltage reading you gave between what you call the ..ignition and the solenoid bolts..? Please define ignition and solenoid bolts. By bolts do you mean ..terminals.. as in what the battery cable connect to? Secondly the simplest style of 12v conversion on a M does not use a solenoid, that does not mean one cannot be utilized. In that case a key switch that turns to a start position or a start push button would need to be added. Is the click you are hearing happen once per start cycle or is it a fairly fast repeating click, click, click...? The one issue with your situation that complicates things is that you say you completely rewired the electrical system. So this makes it a question of is it a mistake in your wiring layout or is something in the system malfunctioning. Sorry, if this insults you in any way, but I assume if you were 100 percent certain your wiring was correct you would not have had to come here for help.

 

[Bob M]

Good point Jim!

I suggested jammed starter because I had this issue on my new to me Super H. The PO had replaced the OEM saddle switch with a solenoid in an attempt fix an intermittent no start problem.

The root cause however turned out to be a worn ring gear. Once I replaced the ring gear the problem went away. I left the solenoid in place - it has been starting perfectly for 15 years now.

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

Solenoids click. That's what they do. You normally can't hear it above the starter turning the engine over. When all is quiet, though...

When they click they connect the power from the battery to the starter. That's not happening in your case.

Voltage is only part of the picture. You can have good voltage with a poor connection that won't pass enough current to turn the starter.

 

[dlk0247]

Thank you for everyone that replied to my post. I will admit that I am not familiar whatsoever with older gas tractors as I am more familiar with diesels.

I am very confident in my rewiring but the question I am faced with is if it is the same prior to the rebuild as a 12v conversion was done by my wife's grandfather many years ago.

I did remove the starter and the teeth appear to be very worn.

The clicking I hear is a single click per start cycle versus a consistent clicking while I am hold in the start button.

I'll attach some photos and maybe it will further assist in your prognosis.

Thanks!

 

[dlk0247]

Thank you for everyone that replied to my post. I will admit that I am not familiar whatsoever with older gas tractors as I am more familiar with diesels.
I am very confident in my rewiring but the question I am faced with is if it is the same prior to the rebuild as a 12v conversion was done by my wife's grandfather many years ago.

I did remove the starter and the teeth appear to be very worn.

The clicking I hear is a single click per start cycle versus a consistent clicking while I am hold in the start button.

I'll attach some photos and maybe it will further assist in your prognosis.

Thanks!

 

[dlk0247]

Would anyone have the proper wiring schematics for a 12V converted Farmall M?

 

[used red MN]

I would have asked for pictures the first time but I knew since you were new you would not be able to post them until your post count is 5. That is just a way they keep malicious posting of unwanted photos on a family oriented site. Since we cant see the photos yet I would like to know about the less than one volt reading between the what you call the ..ignition and the solenoid bolts.. please define these locations as I asked about in my first post. Hope you understand that the ignition as in the spark system has nothing to do with the start circuit of your tractor. If ignition in your terms means the switch with the key, then please call it that. Bolts on a solenoid does not define to me very well what you are taking the voltage reading on. Please be more precise, many folks that come here for advice forget we cannot see what you are looking at. Maybe we should go about it this way. I will post a link to the ..Site Comments.. topic section here. Please place a post there with the topic ..YT support, new poster would like to post pics.. they will then reply and allow you to post pictures. Do not worry that there are not similar posts like that there; trust me this is the correct thing to do to be able to post pictures at this point. One more thing that would be helpful. Put the starter back on and short across the terminal posts on the solenoid with some piece of metal like a 5/16 bolt. If that cranks the engine we know that we need to figure out how to correctly get power to the starter because it works. If it will not crank it could be the starter is bad, but there are still other things to rule out before we condemn it.
Get permission here

 

[used red MN]

This should be close to the diagram you need. Only difference is I think you are energizing the solenoid directly by a start terminal on your key switch. You dont tell us if you have an alternator or a generator. A generator maybe 12v positive ground or negative ground and an alternator is 12v negative ground. It may indicate it is for a Ford that does not matter.
Wiring diagram

 

[dlk0247]

To answer your question, they are the two posts on the front of a four post solenoid mark "I" and "S".

 

[dlk0247]

In response to arcing the two post on the front of the solenoid, I am not getting any cranking but still only hear a single "click" from the solenoid when arcing with a 3/4 inch wrench.

 

[dlk0247]

I have a Delco Alternator and there is an internal resistor in the ignition coil. I also have a push to start button with a push/pull ignition switch.

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

None of that has anything to do with the tractor cranking over, which is the problem at hand.

All you need to be concerned with are the heavy cables connecting the battery to the tractor, the solenoid, and the wire from the starter button to the solenoid.

Since the solenoid clicks when you hit the starter button, your starter button and that wiring is ok. It's the heavy wiring from the battery that you should be looking at. You have a bad connection there. The most common problem is corroded battery cables, or a bad/rusted connection where the - battery cable connects to the chassis of the tractor, aka the ground.

 

[Janicholson]

Not a flame: there are no internal resistors in coils marked for use without external resistor. they are just made with the correct wire size and
number of turns to run on 14.5 volts (charging voltage when running). Like putting 120 volt light bulbs in a 120 volt socket, instead of putting a 60
volt light bulb and a resistor in that circuit. Tr reason for the external resistor is to allow a bypass for starting. Jim

 

[used red MN]

Okay, you have a volt meter so here is how we will move forward. First we need to answer the post by ..old.. is the battery
at 12.6 volts static charge. That means touching the meter probes directly to the round battery posts. If that is good move
to the terminal around the negative post, then to the eyelet that the bolt goes through to bolt the negative cable to the
frame. Then to the frame or chassis itself. Now if you have held the battery voltage at all those point hold the negative
meter lead on the negative post then the positive lead on the frame. Hit your start button, if your meter comes up to
battery voltage you have a poor connection somewhere between the negative battery post and the chassis. If you do not
get a reading move your negative meter lead to the chassis and test the voltage at the positive battery post, hit your start
button if voltage holds move to the battery terminal hit the starter button and check for continued voltage. Do this step by
step checking power flow moving from point to point. Then on to the next just as laid out for the negative cable. When
you get to the solenoid skip over to the opposite side and continue on checking power during a start attempt all the way to
the starter post. By doing this you should be able to determine where the issue is.

 

[old]

Funny how a 12 volt battery that shows say 12.25 volts is what maybe at best 75% charged and will cause problems. Plus given the fact few home owned VOMs are calibrated that can cause volt reading problems

 

[dlk0247]

(quoted from post at 20:19:03 04/20/21) Okay, you have a volt meter so here is how we will move forward. First we need to answer the post by ..old.. is the battery
at 12.6 volts static charge. That means touching the meter probes directly to the round battery posts. If that is good move
to the terminal around the negative post, then to the eyelet that the bolt goes through to bolt the negative cable to the
frame. Then to the frame or chassis itself. Now if you have held the battery voltage at all those point hold the negative
meter lead on the negative post then the positive lead on the frame. Hit your start button, if your meter comes up to
battery voltage you have a poor connection somewhere between the negative battery post and the chassis. If you do not
get a reading move your negative meter lead to the chassis and test the voltage at the positive battery post, hit your start
button if voltage holds move to the battery terminal hit the starter button and check for continued voltage. Do this step by
step checking power flow moving from point to point. Then on to the next just as laid out for the negative cable. When
you get to the solenoid skip over to the opposite side and continue on checking power during a start attempt all the way to
the starter post. By doing this you should be able to determine where the issue is.

erfect, I will take a stab at this tomorrow and see where my issue is and get back to you if I can't seem to figure it out.

 

[dlk0247]

(quoted from post at 20:19:03 04/20/21) Okay, you have a volt meter so here is how we will move forward. First we need to answer the post by ..old.. is the battery
at 12.6 volts static charge. That means touching the meter probes directly to the round battery posts. If that is good move
to the terminal around the negative post, then to the eyelet that the bolt goes through to bolt the negative cable to the
frame. Then to the frame or chassis itself. Now if you have held the battery voltage at all those point hold the negative
meter lead on the negative post then the positive lead on the frame. Hit your start button, if your meter comes up to
battery voltage you have a poor connection somewhere between the negative battery post and the chassis. If you do not
get a reading move your negative meter lead to the chassis and test the voltage at the positive battery post, hit your start
button if voltage holds move to the battery terminal hit the starter button and check for continued voltage. Do this step by
step checking power flow moving from point to point. Then on to the next just as laid out for the negative cable. When
you get to the solenoid skip over to the opposite side and continue on checking power during a start attempt all the way to
the starter post. By doing this you should be able to determine where the issue is.

So I finally had time to try this and I held voltage at each point until I reached the solenoid. When I checked the starter side of the solenoid, I noticed voltage drop to zero on the front post labeled "S" and the cable from the solenoid to the starter and the starter itself.

Any ideas?

 

[dlk0247]

Hopefully this video posted so you can have a general idea to what I mean.

 

[dlk0247]

(quoted from post at 20:19:03 04/20/21) Okay, you have a volt meter so here is how we will move forward. First we need to answer the post by ..old.. is the battery
at 12.6 volts static charge. That means touching the meter probes directly to the round battery posts. If that is good move
to the terminal around the negative post, then to the eyelet that the bolt goes through to bolt the negative cable to the
frame. Then to the frame or chassis itself. Now if you have held the battery voltage at all those point hold the negative
meter lead on the negative post then the positive lead on the frame. Hit your start button, if your meter comes up to
battery voltage you have a poor connection somewhere between the negative battery post and the chassis. If you do not
get a reading move your negative meter lead to the chassis and test the voltage at the positive battery post, hit your start
button if voltage holds move to the battery terminal hit the starter button and check for continued voltage. Do this step by
step checking power flow moving from point to point. Then on to the next just as laid out for the negative cable. When
you get to the solenoid skip over to the opposite side and continue on checking power during a start attempt all the way to
the starter post. By doing this you should be able to determine where the issue is.