Cold Weather Start (here we go again)

[PTG]

Hey everyone. I live in MN where it gets nasty cold. I've read old threads to get some advice and have seen that warming the manifold with a drop light works real good.

Any thoughts as to the safety of that?

Also, better to use a magnetic oil pan heater, inline coolant heater, or both?

Thanks,
PTG in MN

 

[Blaine K]

I prefer the circulating inline heater. The magnetic oil pan ones are ok, but they only give you isolated heat and can cause hot spots on the pan. I use a coolant circulation heater on my skidsteer.

 

[Kevin Singleton]

It was pretty cold, here, in western PA, this week (-6F!), and I couldn't get my '52 8N (6V/sidemount/EI) to start, even with starting fluid (which always worked, before).

I put a magnetic heater on the manifold, and a charger on the battery, and it started on the first try, the next morning. It sits out in the cold, under a tarp. I think the charger was way more useful than the heater, but the heater is cheap, and doesn't hurt anything.
My 8N

 

[Bruce (VA)]

No matter what else you do, the battery must be fully charged. A float charger is helpful. If you need to jump it, see tip # 43. No, it doesn’t need to be 12v. Plenty of N’s start just fine on 6v in below 0* temps if they are well maintained.



Clean grounds & battery terminals are always important. Don’t forget to loosen the starter from the block (see tip # 36) and polish the block & all starter mating surfaces w/ sandpaper to insure a good electrical ground.



If you can’t remember the last time you replaced the battery cables, it’s time to do it. Just because the terminals are clean doesn’t mean there is no corrosion under the insulation. And, this is another case where size matters (see tip # 41)



A charged battery, clean grounds & new cables aren’t going to mean much if the tractor needs a tune-up. At a minimum, every fall, remove the cap (or distributor if it’s a front mount) check the points for pitting or burning, re-gap them & put a dab of lube on the cam. (BTW…..if you’ve wondered why some folks get years of use out of a set of points…….this is one of the reasons).



Distributor gaskets are important on a sidemount & critical on a frontmount. As is the gasket under the coil. Just like with the battery cables….if you can’t remember when you replaced the gaskets, do it this year.



Push the clutch in when you start the engine (tip # 29)



This tip won’t make it start easier, but it will make it run better: turn the main jet out ½ to 1 full turn for cold weather operating. Cold air is denser so you need a richer mixture.



At least ½ open throttle, key on & gas on 2 full turns; keep your hands off the choke until the engine is turning over! If you think an N floods easy in the summer, just wait until it’s 20* or less. If you flood it, the plugs are fouled & it will be it next to impossible to start. Replace the plugs. You don't need to toss them; heat the tips for a few seconds w/ a propane torch to burn off the invisible spark-robbing deposits from today's additive filled gasoline........or wash them in lacquer thinner.



The general consensus seems to be that a battery blankets or magnetic oil pan heaters work better than lower radiator hose heaters or dipstick heaters. Freeze plug heaters are difficult to find for N’s because of the limited space in the water jacket. Magnetic oil pan heaters on the intake manifold will help as well. Or even a light bulb. There are folks on this board from places far colder than VA w/ N's that have tried all of these devices; they have more exeperience than I have (and ever will!)



While water in gas today is unusual because of all the ethanol, it’s not unheard of. A little water goes a long way at 20*; use a fuel stabilizer.



This is one of my favorite quotes regarding cold weather starts:



"kilroy



07-25-2009 19:19:52

72.13.217.35

724129 <http://www.ytmag.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=nboard&th=724129>









my 48 8n is 6v with points in a front mount, and at -30 it fires right up, no block heater, just have to tend the choke for a minute. Have run in the rain and snow and have never had to dry the disributer, just used all the little gaskets and guess it sealed up. I like the points because if they do get wet, dry them, they work again, dont know if the electronics are that way but they cost alot more to replace than points I'm sure"
50 Tips

 

[Ultradog MN]

Convert to 12 volts if it isn't already and add EI. Then it will start in temps colder than you want to be out tractoring in.
Lots and lots of discussions on 6V vs 12V here.
Most of the 6 Volt advocates live in the South and haven't got a clue what cold weather is.
Lot of other advantages to 12V and EI too but cold weather starts is a big one.

 

[Blaine K]

inline heater.

 

[Jerry/MT]

What oil do you have in the crankcase? Multivis 10W30 or 10W40 will help with starting at really cold ambient tempertures, maybe even 5W30 if you have a projected spell of below zero weather. The problem is that a lot of these old engines have marginal oil pressure even with heavier weight oils.
Battery heaters are another option. The ability of the battery to suply cranking power is greatly reduced with low battery temperatures.

Of coarse, having the engine tuned properly so you get a fat bluish white spark is also a requisite.

I"m a big fan of a block heater but as someone said that"s not an option for an N. Tank type coolant heaters might work.

Just some thing to think about for cold weather operation.

 

[Paul in MN]

Bruce,

I think most of your advice is right on the money, here is one place where I'll have to disagree to some extent.

"The general consensus seems to be that a battery blankets or magnetic oil pan heaters work better than lower radiator hose heaters or dipstick heaters".

I grew up with 6 volt cars, trucks, and tractors here in Minnesota subzero (somedays "artic")weather, and yes the battery blanket is somewhat useful, and the magnetic oil pan heater is somewhat useful, and the dipstick heater is a little bit useful, the king of all cold weather starting solutions is the tank heater of frost plug heater. I run a snowplowing business, and when it is cold and blowing I must be able to GO, or I am losing lots of $$ and customers. We plug in the tank heater or frostplug heaters on the big Ford 401 cu. in. tractors, the JD engine in the 975 Bobcat, and the plow trucks. Make the engine think it is summer and it GOes, every time. With some of the lesser tricks like battery warming, I have had the valves hang up from the oil being too thick for the artic temp, the fuel not vaporizing or condensing on the sides of the cold cylinder walls, the viscous oil making it hard to turn over with the pistons being hard to pull through the cylinders. Over many such cold starts there is significant engine wear.

Our diesel powered school busses and over road trucks are plugged in every night (block heaters). Our big cranes have a propane tank mounted above the counter weight...to provide heat to the engine coolant continuously when they are not operating. Our bulldozers and earth scrapers have quick connects in the coolant line so they can be plugged into a operating warm engine. Some guy will be assigned to get to the jobsite about 2 hours before the rest of the crew, and hook his pickup's coolant lines w/quick connects up to the first dozer that has to run. In about a half hour he can start that one, and goes down the line with the same process over and over. In the old days, heavy equipment was just run all night long, but that is seldom done now.

So there is the Artic Fox's view of how to make "chinnery" run when it is brutal nasty cold.

Good Day to you, I've got to go out and plow more snow. Fortunately it is warm today with a +20 here. But that makes the snow more slippery.

Paul in MN

 

[Paul in MN]

Jerry,

The tank type heater IS an option on the 8N. I put a 3/8" pipe nipple in the center drain cock hole on the lower left side of the block, and added a Tee with a short nipple facing forward, and the drain cock in the open port of the tee facing out. A heater hose goes from the short nipple to the bottom of the tank heater, and the upper port of the tank heater gets connected to a short tee off the upper radiator hose. Our Ford tractor dealer used to sell this upper hose tee, and maybe still does. But I'd make one if I had to. If the upper hose tee is located below the thermostat, the warmed coolant circulates well.

Have a good day!

Paul in MN

 

[PTG]

Bruce,
Thanks for the pointers. Is the best way to access a front mount to just remove the radiator all together?

PS it's a 9N Front Mount with a 6 Volt system. I did notice after jumping it the thing fired up instantly. Perhaps along with your suggestions I will also take the advice of Ultradog MN and convert to 12V.
Putting money into the "stupid tractor" as my wife likes to call it is a tough sell right now. Perhaps I should send her out to start it in the cold next time I plow...she may understand then

 

[JW Axtell]

(quoted from post at 12:00:30 02/09/10)
Most of the 6 Volt advocates live in the South and haven't got a clue what cold weather is.
one.

Aint that the truth.
My 12 volt has started on first crank all winter. Even down to 11 below. 12 volt and heated manifold.

 

[Bruce (VA)]

There are a number of reason why it will start better by jumping it....many of which I listed above. 12v will make the starter spin faster....but, at some point, you will still need to perform some maintenance on the tractor! Dirty grounds are dirty grounds regardless of voltage.

Yea, you can remove the radiator to work on the points just like you can take the tire off the tractor to add air! The front distributor was designed to come off of the tractor to replace/adjust the points. Remove the wire on the coil, remove the coil bail, remove the distributor cap & take the two bolts off. The base of the distributor has an offset tang & can only go back one way unless you really force it on.

A tune up will likely make all the difference in the world in it starting better. Remember, if you do not maintain the tractor, 6v or 12v isn't going to make much difference!
50 Tips

 

[Jimmyjack]

I agree wholeheartedly. I live straight East of you.

 

[Jerry/MT]

I thought that would work because of the drain cock tapping. I have seen tee"s that go through the rad hose on other tank heater applications. Thanks for the info. Did you have to build a bracket to hold the tank heater, too?

I have a TO-30, 12V with EI and no other starting aids save the choke. I use 10W40 oil in the engine and I have never had problems starting (knock on wood!) it in cold weather.

 

[Paul in Edmonton]

A lot of strong opinions here, so I'll toss mine in as well...

First, I'll assume your tractor starts fine when it's warm (so we don't have spark issues, etc.). Otherwise, you gotta deal with that first.

Bruce is bang on about the plugs fouling. If in doubt, pull them and hit them with a torch. If it coughs without starting, this NEEDS to be done.

Once you're past that, does it turn over at a reasonable rate? If it does, then the combination of oil temperature and weight is adequate, and your battery/cables are fine. I have synthetic 5w30 in mine, and it turns over fine at 0°F. Much lower and it needs some heat on the oil pan.

The next thing I've found makes a BIG difference (both on my 8N and on my Willys CJ3A of the same vintage, also a flathead) is to heat up the manifold. About five seconds with a Tiger Torch (or a bit longer with a small torch) is enough to get it warm enough that the fuel is able to vaporize.

I did some plowing with my 8N last weekend at a couple degrees above 0°F. It turned over fine, but wouldn't even cough. I hit the manifold with a few seconds of heat, and it started on the first crank.

-Paul

 

[Jimmyjack]

An easy cheap hint that a lot of us forget is just take the battery out and put it in a warm location. A warm battery is much more efficient than a cold one. When you go to start the tractor on a cold day put the warm battery in it.

 

[BDT/NWMN]

BRITE lites

 

[Paul in MN]

Jerry,

Yes I did make a bracket to hold the tank heater. You don't want its weight just hanging from the hoses. I made this setup about 35 years ago and still use it, but don't remember the details of the bracket. I know it is just a heavy type sheet metal that grips around the center of the heater body. As my tractor is a front mount 48, the water pump has an extra tang and welded nut facing the left side of the engine. That is what I fastened to. I'd show you a picture, but my dumb old head just can't figure that out. Maybe someday I'll get my one of my kids or grandkids to teach me how to do the photos.

Paul in MN

 

[NoNewParts]

Western NY here.
In the shop, I use my torpedo heater, pointed at it for awhile.
Or one of those halogen worklights with a stand you can get for
10 bucks or so. Watch out...those get real hot.
All my tractors are 12 volt, I hook a jumper charger to it too
when it gets below zero.
clutch in when starting and use wheel chocks.
The tractor will jump forward pretty hard in neutral
when you let the clutch out when it's way
below zero. (not good in a crowded shop!)
I have to go with 12 volts up here. Don't see too many
working tractors here with 6 volts, only the restored ones in the shows.

6 or 12 ....Like Bruce said, make sure it is running right, and the wiring
and grounds are top notch before winter.

And if it's sitting outside, and it's been below zero for a week, I don't
even bother......

Rich

 

[Ultradog MN]

Great post.
When these tractors were made they didn't Have to start every day. Small squares or more likely loose hay was in the haymow and the silo was full and required only manual labor to feed. So if you had a week of below zero you didn't need it to start anyway. That is why 6V has lasted so well - tractor doesn't need to get started every day.
Climates and conditions that require them to start and run dependably in extremes require them to be more reliable than 6 V can offer.

Okay so, I've been here a while and can see your handle is new.
And as much as I agree with your post I think newbies are due for some amount of hazing.
So the question I have for your handle; NoNewParts is: How in the heck can you have 12 V with no new parts anyway?
And BDT in MN, I've got a couple of tractors here and the truth is not a single light works on any of them so I couldn't say. But I agree if they did work 12 v is brighter.

 

[NoNewParts]

UltraDog,
Hazing is fine.
NoNewParts is because, if possible I like to make stuff
work rather than buy. New parts ain't too good today, anyway.
I'm a Ford man, but any Chevy I see being scrapped,
I grab the alternator. Down to my last one.
wire I have, time I have, scrap metal I have
I do buy IC14SB's new. If it's a frontmount,
I hog it out per Hobo, and buy a IC14SB.

Growing up, I watched the farmer down the road and the welder
across the street fix ANYTHING that broke. Always amazed me.
They are both gone now, I wish I could have watched them more.
In this day and age of "restore" and "correct", farmerize has turned into
a bad word.
To me, every great invention and/or improvement to an
existing product is because somebody farmerized!
nice to meet you,
Rich

 

[Bruce (VA)]

Paul, great advice from a guy who clearly can keep anything w/ pistons running in MN winters! Speaking specifically to an N, I've never heard of a tank heater & most folks say you can't find a freeze plug heater to fit them. The tank heater sounds like the way to go even if a bit of plumbing is involved. Any of your N's or other tractors available for a photo op? Lots of folks here who live in places a lot colder than VA would probably like to see how it works.

 

[Colin King]

Paul,

Interesting note about leaving equipment running all night. I've told you that my dad was a logger (and later a sawyer) in Winton in the early 70s. On a logging site they'd park the skidders under huge tents and run them all night. -40F is a common occurrence up there.

Hope all is well!
Colin, MN