Compact Tractor Operating Hours

[Fritz Maurer]

The ag cvts have a much better reputation than their counterparts in passenger vehicles. A lot of the passenger vehicles it’s more like a set of variable speed sheaves on a combine or a golf cart transmission really. Not terribly robust.

An ag tractor it’s much more robust more like a planetary with 2 motors fighting each other. They do use hp. In my opinion they are worth it however especially the larger ones my entire time at agco we hadn’t seen a fendt cvt fail at our location very impressive and it was my favorite to operate I asked from time to time how they thought they were holding up and had heard they finally pulled one on a terragator a few years after I left and it came as a cartridge to pop in. Had to tear quite a bit of stuff off but they said the transmission part was simple.

Ag hydros have a more complicated history. Some good some bad

So... what is the upside to this type of transmission, verses something like a Sundstand pump and motor arrangement? Any redeeming features like fuel economy, easy service, cost of parts?

 

[wore out]

So... what is the upside to this type of transmission, verses something like a Sundstand pump and motor arrangement? Any redeeming features like fuel economy, easy service, cost of parts?

I would say less cost because a smaller hydro pump and motor are used, the load is split between the planetary gear drive and the hydro motor with the gear drive carrying the higher percent of power.

Also, that leads to less power loss to heat making for better fuel efficiency.

 

[stdsch40]

So... what is the upside to this type of transmission, verses something like a Sundstand pump and motor arrangement? Any redeeming features like fuel economy, easy service, cost of parts?

I can only speak from my own direct experience and wont refer to 3rd party testimonials. First, no clutch, no gears, only speed ranges. Tractor speed is not determined by a 'gear ratio'. Engine rpm stays fairly constant regardless of tractor speed or load. Tractor can travel as fast reverse as forward. Doing loader work (back and forth) is no effort at all. You can go very very slow an inch at a time. Tractor will maintain desired speed via a type of 'cruise control' you want 2.3 mph? just set it and go. There are more benefits but those were enough to 'sell' me on the CVT.

 

[Fritz Maurer]

I can only speak from my own direct experience and wont refer to 3rd party testimonials. First, no clutch, no gears, only speed ranges. Tractor speed is not determined by a 'gear ratio'. Engine rpm stays fairly constant regardless of tractor speed or load. Tractor can travel as fast reverse as forward. Doing loader work (back and forth) is no effort at all. You can go very very slow an inch at a time. Tractor will maintain desired speed via a type of 'cruise control' you want 2.3 mph? just set it and go. There are more benefits but those were enough to 'sell' me on the CVT.

Well you're kind of distilling my question to what I really wanted to ask. This CVT thing sounds complicated; is it really that much better than a straight hydro tractor, or is it a gimmick thing.... like Cat telling us a high-drive D4 is superior to a conventional track machine?

 

[stdsch40]

Well you're kind of distilling my question to what I really wanted to ask. This CVT thing sounds complicated; is it really that much better than a straight hydro tractor, or is it a gimmick thing.... like Cat telling us a high-drive D4 is superior to a conventional track machine?

Call it a gimick if you like, maybe try one out first then talk. I know Fendt has gone all in on them as the other poster said. In my tractor I have
right and left brake peddles on the left foot side and speed peddle on the right foot side. Seemed weird at first but easy to get used to. It has a neutral position but the tractor wont roll in neutral. In fact the tractor can't roll in neutral, forward or reverse. Unless you give it foot throttle/pedal. If you touch the foot throttle lightly it will move 1 inch either forward or reverse. Manual says if you have to tow the tractor there is a procedure to unlock the transmission, otherwise you'll break something. PTO operation is pretty standard, rev engine to PTO speed at 540 rpm then do what you want.
As far as complicated is concerned, sure yes, very complicated, but then so are most things in this world. Can you repair a refrigeration system? Everything is complicated depending on what you actually know.

 

[moresmoke]

Well you're kind of distilling my question to what I really wanted to ask. This CVT thing sounds complicated; is it really that much better than a straight hydro tractor, or is it a gimmick thing.... like Cat telling us a high-drive D4 is superior to a conventional track machine?

The hydro mechanical CVT is much more efficient and will last longer than a hydrostatic. At the mid point of a given speed range, the power transmission is purely mechanical. The hydraulic pump/motor combination is used to vary the speed faster or slower from that point. The electronic controls provide the operator experience of set it and forget it as you run. The Deere IVT typically has 4 mechanical speed ranges. Fendt Vario has 2.

Deere you are into the 6M series and Fendt about the same size, somewhat bigger than the OP was asking about.

The small CNH “CVT” tractors are a chain variator style, similar to a car.

The high drive sprocket on a crawler is superior to the standard drive in some situations. In abrasive soil it cuts track wear immensely, and also give you a higher ground clearance. Down side is it raises the center of gravity, so not as good on side slopes.

 

[Fritz Maurer]

The hydro mechanical CVT is much more efficient and will last longer than a hydrostatic. At the mid point of a given speed range, the power transmission is purely mechanical. The hydraulic pump/motor combination is used to vary the speed faster or slower from that point. The electronic controls provide the operator experience of set it and forget it as you run. The Deere IVT typically has 4 mechanical speed ranges. Fendt Vario has 2.

Deere you are into the 6M series and Fendt about the same size, somewhat bigger than the OP was asking about.

The small CNH “CVT” tractors are a chain variator style, similar to a car.

The high drive sprocket on a crawler is superior to the standard drive in some situations. In abrasive soil it cuts track wear immensely, and also give you a higher ground clearance. Down side is it raises the center of gravity, so not as good on side slopes.

Why did they go back to the old style on the smaller machines?

 

[Fritz Maurer]

Call it a gimick if you like, maybe try one out first then talk. I know Fendt has gone all in on them as the other poster said. In my tractor I have
right and left brake peddles on the left foot side and speed peddle on the right foot side. Seemed weird at first but easy to get used to. It has a neutral position but the tractor wont roll in neutral. In fact the tractor can't roll in neutral, forward or reverse. Unless you give it foot throttle/pedal. If you touch the foot throttle lightly it will move 1 inch either forward or reverse. Manual says if you have to tow the tractor there is a procedure to unlock the transmission, otherwise you'll break something. PTO operation is pretty standard, rev engine to PTO speed at 540 rpm then do what you want.
As far as complicated is concerned, sure yes, very complicated, but then so are most things in this world. Can you repair a refrigeration system? Everything is complicated depending on what you actually know.

Response seems the least bit salty. It was not my intention to insult your purchase... I was just asking questions cuz I don't know what a cvt even looks like. I view most everything through the prism serviceability and accessibility and that usually dictates which unit I buy.

 

[RCP]

Wow, my simple question on operating hours has morphed into several sidebar discussions.

I have found a Massey Ferguson 1660 that intrigues me, it has 1000 hrs. and is outfitted the way I wanted.

I have a good NH and MF dealers close by, the other brands not so much.

We will see where it goes from here.

 

[wore out]

Wow, my simple question on operating hours has morphed into several sidebar discussions.

I have found a Massey Ferguson 1660 that intrigues me, it has 1000 hrs. and is outfitted the way I wanted.

I have a good NH and MF dealers close by, the other brands not so much.

We will see where it goes from here.

Good luck with your dream tractor, I looked up your Massey on Tractordata and it shows it's HEAVY, which is a good thing vs. some of the light weight consumer grade "acreage" tractors in the same HP range.

 

[Fixingfarmer]

Why did they go back to the old style on the smaller machines?

Cost cvts are much more expensive. It’s not that they went back it’s that few have done it so they could compete. They would get destroyed in the sales department.

They are single lever control much like a hydro. Left hand reverser is usually also installed at least on agco machines.

It has all the advantages of a hydro but none of the disadvantages of destroying it in heavy tillage or overheating

 

[Brendon-KS]

Wow, my simple question on operating hours has morphed into several sidebar discussions.

I have found a Massey Ferguson 1660 that intrigues me, it has 1000 hrs. and is outfitted the way I wanted.

I have a good NH and MF dealers close by, the other brands not so much.

We will see where it goes from here.

Like you say, this thread has gone off on multiple tangents!

The Massey compact tractors have been made in Japan by Iseki for many years and there's no indication that will end any time in the foreseeable future. They have a good reputation and I wouldn't at all be afraid of one with 1000 hours provided that it has had reasonably good routine maintenance. Just a simple inspection will typically tell you if something was taken care of.

 

[Fixingfarmer]

Curious what ag hydros you have in mind. IH, of course, and Versatile had a few models, what else comes to mind?

Agco Massey Ferguson and challenger a lot of the little ones were hydros and if one came in with metal in the transmission that’s usually what it was equipped with. If it was split it had a hydro. The bigger ones most eventually became cvt especially now that challenger is no more fendt has just plain replaced them and they are very proud of their transmission. In the terragators they say fendt right on the top of the case.

I made the mistake of purchasing a 575b challenger in powershift because I was scared of the cvt and the shift pattern is horrendous most of the relatives can’t handle operating it with gravity wagons because it’s more like a power quad with ranges that aren’t at the best shift points.

Other than the transmission love the tractor little Perkins fuel efficient massive fuel tank will run for a week and an half and I have it wired to run an auger from the ground off a fence post. But lord help you if you suggest anyone else take a train to town.

If two were sitting side by side and you have a choice and you have money a slightly larger CVT equipped tractor IMO 100 percent over any other option.

The ivts are just a different label for the same thing everyone was similarly scared and concerned about them using much more hp but John Deere same thing they have been very robust when I was at school they had just come out and every one was very wary of them.

 

[DRussell]

How are the CVT equipped tractors with engine braking and slowing the tractor/load down by simply decreasing the engine rpms. I've watched some youtube videos where people who have these say these CVT equipped machines have little or no engine braking through the CVT and have to rely on the brakes. The videos I've watched indicate those tractors wear their brakes out much faster than other transmission types.

 

[Fixingfarmer]

One should be pulling back on the cvt handle you should not be touching brakes except in emergency.

Set your engine rpm to 1950 and leave it there all day. It will load up a bit when you slow down

 

[showcrop]

The Boomer was known for pretty much falling flat on its face when it came out. I don't recall details. It may have been just that Fiat thought that they could cash in on the popularity of the 8N, but put a premium price on it. I think that they discounted them heavily to move them, but I know that it took a few years.

 

[moresmoke]

Why did they go back to the old style on the smaller machines?

I’m sure it’s a price point issue. The 40-60 hp market would be competing with straight hydro machines. Where once they are in the 100+ hp market the planetary CVTs are competing with powershift transmissions.

 

[moresmoke]

How are the CVT equipped tractors with engine braking and slowing the tractor/load down by simply decreasing the engine rpms. I've watched some youtube videos where people who have these say these CVT equipped machines have little or no engine braking through the CVT and have to rely on the brakes. The videos I've watched indicate those tractors wear their brakes out much faster than other transmission types.

There’s 2 ways to operate a CVT equipped tractor, constant engine speed or variable. Constant would be Pto jobs, high volume hydraulic needs, or sometimes heavy draft loads. Variable is just what it sounds like, the computer controls engine speed for power and efficiency. Either way, ground speed is controlled with the transmission control. Push forward to go fast, pull back to slow or stop. My experience has been the engine braking is just fine, even too aggressive at times.

I could see how excessive brake wear could develop in loader applications though if not operated properly.

 

[Fixingfarmer]

I’m sure it’s a price point issue. The 40-60 hp market would be competing with straight hydro machines. Where once they are in the 100+ hp market the planetary CVTs are competing with powershift transmissions.

Exactly. And I expect that to change as they go along smaller and smaller will occur more and more I believe a boomer 8n might be an example of why the little ones aren’t quite ready for them yet??? They look cool but I’ve been told to stay away as some older ones pop up.

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

Wow, my simple question on operating hours has morphed into several sidebar discussions.

I have found a Massey Ferguson 1660 that intrigues me, it has 1000 hrs. and is outfitted the way I wanted.

I have a good NH and MF dealers close by, the other brands not so much.

We will see where it goes from here.

That's what happens, and what that usually means is, your question doesn't really have an answer.

MOST compact tractors have low hours because the people that buy them are using them as "estate" tractors. They never get used enough to develop problems. Plus there are so many brands and models, no doubt the number of hours before one is "problematic" is completely different from any other.

CONDITION is far more important than hours. You can tell when a tractor is well cared for.