Cross hatch on cylinder wall?

[hayray]

Is it the common belief that there should be cross hatch still visable on a newly rebuilt engine? In this example I am referring to a IH 464 that I paid a ton of bucks to have rebuilt two years ago. Just pulled the head and that for sure was done by Mickey Mouse, looks like the valves were not even ground, do not match seats. Right now I have really low compression on every cylinder, a burnt out exhaust valve on number 2 cylinder so every thing this guy did is in question. I have a couple guys telling that the absence of cross hatching on that recently over-hauled engine is proof enough that the block was not honed?

 

[lucas boy]

delazing marks dissapear very fast,honeing done when boreing or in a new sleeve lasts a little longer.

 

[RodinNS]

Crosshatch is most often seen on new engines. When repaired in service... most guys will often use a 3 stone cylinder hone and that will not leave a crosshatch. The dingleberry type hone/deglazer does... I think... but I've not used one in a long, long time.
So.... if an engine had a crosshatch pattern I'd expect to see that for 3000 plus hours (at least on the engines I've seen) but it may not necessarly have ever had one either which would be OK.

Rod

 

[JDemaris]

Cross-hatch should be there if really "rebuilt" or properly "rerung."

Cross-hatch is there to allow a oil to keep the cylinder wall lubricated while parts break in. I've pulled apart cars and trucks with over 100K miles on them that still has the cross-hatch marks.

Some other posters state it is NOT common in re-ring jobs? I disagree. It IS common in jobs done correctly. A good cross-hatch can be done with a hand-held three-stone spring-loaded hone, four-stone rigid hone, or a one-piece beaded hone. The RPM versus vertical up and down movement needs to be correct to get the correct cross-hatch, that's all. I've seen many done wrong, since many don't know how to properly use a hone.

Your story is the reason why I'll never pay extra for anything supposedly "rebuilt." I'd rather buy a machine cheap with a worn-out or blown engine, or a high-use good running engine, then anything someone claims to be "rebuilt."

 

[hayray]

Thanks for the advice. I think next time for sure that is what I am gonna do, I really can't be sure what was done on this engine and it makes me sick.

 

[showcrop]

I'll just add on to what RodNS has said. I was told by a friend that teaches commercial/Industrial mechanics that cross hatching should last pretty much the useful life of the motor, and when it is pretty much gone, that the engine is pretty much due for a rebuild.

 

[Bob]

"3 stone cylinder hone and that will not leave a crosshatch"

WHAT????

 

[Kentb of SWMO]

Honing WILL NOT leave a crosshatch IF NOT done correctly. To get the desired 45 degree hatch most electric drills turn to fast for a common person to move the hone in/out of the cylinder fast enough to get the 45 degrees. If you just stick the hone in the cylinder, go zoom with the drill and do not move the hone in/out there will be no crossing. You need the cross hatch for the ring to wear against to seat them selves to the cylinder walls.

Kent

 

[Brian G. NY]

I had a "73 Mustang with a 351CJ engine once. The engine ran but I never registered or drove it "cause it was a real rust bucket. After a few years I advertised the engine and 4 speed for $350 and a young guy came to buy it to place in a Fox bodied Capri for drag racing. He said he wanted to pull a head and look at the cylinders before he bought it. I agreed and when we pulled the head we fouind the stock bore with no ring ledge and still a cross hatch visible on the cylinder walls. Now, this car had just over 100,000 miles on it and there was nothing to lead me to believe there had been a new block installed in the recent past; all the rust looked uniform. LOL
I understand the 351CJ blocks were built of better materials but is it possible for the cross hatch to be still visible after all those miles? I kick myself right in the A$$ every time I think about the big mistake I made selling that engine.

 

[Stuart]

Isnt the 3 or 4 stone hone used to break the glazing off of the cylinder wall and the bead hone used to put a cross hatch on the cylinder wall? That is what the rebuild man at the local JD Dealer always said, that is usually what I do when rebuild an engine.

 

[Spook]

I worked building engines at GM, and every single one you could clearly see the crosshatching on the bore. Field returns, after 1000's of miles still showed the crosshatch. The depth of the pattern and the pattern itself is called out on the blueprint.

 

[pete 23]

If he did indeed put a good cross hatch on it will for sure still be there below the ring travel regardless of wear on upper end. Dirt coming into engine will take that cross hatch off very quickly and also show lot of wear on rings and ring grooves. One would have to check the wear in cyl and pistons to determine that. I have seen many an engine low hour over haul ruined due to leaks on intake side usually on older tractors where the hoses were not in good condition.

 

[El Hombre]

I pulled the pistons in a Dodge 2.5 Turbo with 150K on it. I could see the factory crosshatch in the entire bore.

What is this 4 stone hone about? I've got the micrometer adjustable hard hone, has 2 stones and 2 felt wipers. It's a Lisle.

Is it a Sunnen?

 

[JDemaris]

A stone or bead hone can both be used to put in a good cross-hatch. The advantage (supposedly) to using a bead-hone is - if examined under a microscope - the grooves it leaves in a cylinder wall have less raised edges and therefore allow a cleaner and faster break-in process. That may be true in theory - but since so many are used incorrectly anyway, not sure how much it matters.

To the converse, if you have to bore a cylinder oversize - it can be done with a rigid adjustable hone but can never be done with a bead-hone.

 

[guido]

Hello hayray,
Cross etching is part of an engine rebuilt.If the engine has liners or not. Most electric drills will be too fast, but with an variable speed drill, cross etching can be done.
Its angle is very specific 45 degrees, and not very easy to accomplish, especially if you never done it before. A machine shop can do it for you The cross etching not only keeps the oil in the liner walls to keep them lubricated, but it helps seat the rings in as well.
Sounds like a very inexperienced mechanic who did the work.
Guido.

 

[JDemaris]

3 stone hone will leave a perfect cross-hatch when the guy holding it actually knows how to use it.

 

[JDemaris]

It's really two cutting stones and two lube-wipers, i.e. four elements but only two do the cutting - with a micrometer feed. I bought mine used 50 years ago. AMMCO SL-400. I suspect it got taken over by Lisle later. It can bore cylinders from 2 3/16" up to 4" diameter. Not really something I'd use just to deglaze a cylinder and put in a cross-hatch. I've bored many engines oversize with it over the years.

 

[RodinNS]

Speed must be important then... because I've never seen one leave a cross hatch pattern. They definitely leave a pattern tho... and that's not just work I've done.

Rod

 

[Tom-TX]

hayray, you got taken by your so-called mechanic. Dont use him ever again and tell everyone within 50 miles of you; make it a mission to warn others. Also confront him and show him the valves and lack of crosshatching. See wht he has to say for himself. Dont let it slide by, as he will keep screwing everyone else. Sorry for your problem, but you will probably have to completely rebuild. Also couble check and then check again for ANY air leaks on the intake side. Tom

 

[JDemaris]

The angle of the cross-hatch is determined by rotation speed versus the up and down speed. Takes a very slow drill to do it correctly.

 

[johndeere720GA]

The hones that leave the best crosshatch pattern (my opinion) are the ones that look like a hundred little planets orbiting a shaft. Called a Flex-Hone:

 

[showcrop]

I would think from pictures that I have seen of bearing failure due to air cleaner failure, that it would be very difficult for an engine to keep turning long enough with enough dirt in the oil to wear out cross hatching.

 

[ASEguy]

What you need to find out is why you had low compression. What were your readings? Did you just do a dry cranking or a wet test too? Cross hatch patterns are indeed visible in engines after numerous miles IF they run hotter thermostats and have more precise control over fuel delivery such as fuel injection. Older cars pre 1980's usually had a ridge that had to be cut out in order to remove the pistons. These engines had no visible crosshatch and usually ran colder thermostats and poor control over fuel delivery like carbs. Running engines cooler requires more fuel for the combustion event to occur. Long post. Sorry. Hope this helps. Gerard

 

[hayray]

I had 145, 25,125, and 100 PSI. There is a carbon ridge at the top but I am not sure if it is too thick to push a piston out.

 

[bc]

You got that right JD. I keep seeing and hearing about vehicles for sale with only a few thousand miles on a rebuild. All it does a raise a red flag to me. What is wrong that they want to sell now? Why spend all that money to rebuild the engine in an old vehicle just to sell it for little gain or a loss? Last couple I rebuilt, I trusted the rebuilder. Had to take his word for what valves needed replacing and on the crank being turned. Next time around I'd have the head(s) done separately so I can see it all and then put it back together.

 

[Billks]

I agree with aseguy. I worked for cadillac and rering northstars with 100k miles and still had a crosshatch. I am working on a 61 f600 that was already rebuilt once and has no crosshatch and has a lip on it. It was bores .060 over. the other issue is filtration. Dust is hard on cylinder walls.

 

[ASEguy]

If it's a carbon ridge it could be removed rather easily. The ridge I'm referring to is actually metal from the original bore. That has to be cut out with a ridge reamer if it stops the piston on removal. What does your service manual give you for compression specs.? Typically cylinders should be 10% of rated and 10% of each other to have a smooth running engine. Cylinder # 2 could be a burned valve issue only and #3 and #4 could be valve related also assuming #1 is close to factory specs. I would not pull the pistons yet if compression is your only issue with the engine. Put the spark plugs back in, turn your combustion chambers at 12:00 and fill them with water. They should hold for 15 minutes. If they don't you may have found your issue and the valve(s) causing you the trouble. Hope this helps. Gerard

 

[Klyde]

OK my 2 cents.. CHECK the air cleaner and filter. sounds an awful lot like the motor has been suckin dirt.

 

[Old Magnet]

Didn't see anyone hit on the real reason for the cross hatch and accurate 45 degree honing pattern.

It is done to prevent the rings from rotating in the bore while seating. If you introduce rotation the rings will never seat.

 

[mmidlam]

this type of honing is new to me.
plateau honing

 

[bc]

New to me as well M. Even read about the cotton ball test. On a dry cylinder run a cotton ball over 2 or 3 inches of cylinder. Before the cylinder is ultra honed, it will snag a few cotton strands. After the ultra hone, it shouldn't snag any strands.

 

[MeanGene1]

Actually, rings are designed to slowly rotate, to keep the grooves clean and the rings free- they are installed with staggered gaps on assembly, but don't stay there very long. There are many bore finishes these days, as there are many types of ringsets for many different applications- ringsets are made very differently these days from "back when", and cylinders are finished very differently. I do different things from tractor stuff to (mainly) high performance and race stuff, and my neighbor across the street owns the local speed & machine, over 35 yrs, and uses the brushes for the "plateau" finish on a Sunnen CK-10. I'm also lucky to have a buddy who used to be the performance parts manager at Sealed Power (Speed-Pro), after a few years at Holley, and is now a highly respected high-perf builder. I bought a shortblock from him that came out of his personal car, a 505 ci 427 Ford, that was machined at Sunnen's training center (helps to have "friends") and was torque-plate hot-honed with the latest technology- a pretty fine finish. Very round & straight cylinders mean the rings don't have to wear to fit them, and the rings seat almost instantaneously- just using the torque plates makes a huge difference. At that level the crosshatch pattern can also come down quite a bit from 45 degrees. We'll also use very narrow, low drag rings on high-perf stuff. Fitting things that close just takes a lot of time and patience, and the parts can be a bit "nicer" than a basic sleeve 'n piston set. But bottom line, the straighter and rounder your cylinders are, under torque loads, and the closer you fit the parts, the better it'll seal