Diesel Engine Misbehavin'

In your first post you said you ran it for about 4 hours at 1800 RPMs and had no issue until the end of the running time when you revved it up to full throttle, and immediately on going to full throttle it dogged down to 50% throttle. I would think if you had any significant ice in a fuel line, or gelling issue it would have shown up during the 4 hours at 1800 RPMs.
It's kinda why I have an anxious love/hate relationship with this tractor in the winter. Not the brand, but just the size of the tractor itself... relative to anything else that I have available... whenever I so much as see an indicator flicker... I imagine a very bad episode of "Heavy Rescue 401" and many $$$ to get it moved and going again...

During the summer, I have options to self-recover... our truck, our 2WD New Holland T4030... during the winter... no bueno...
 
hmmmmmmm

That's why I went after the air filter first. I figured it was clogged with snow. I had just finished about a half hour straight of making a pile as tall as the tractor could pile it. There were big wet flakes in the air... I had cleared the air screen on top of the hood numerous times...but the engine never overheated...

The "derating" is also why I checked the coolant... I've had issues with coolant loss after a long time of block heater use.

It would seem that both of those issues would have cleared permanently with cleaning the air filter and checking coolant levels...without needing a bunch of shutdown cycles... Admittedly, the 911 and cetane boost was just "defensive medicine", brought on by my anxiety over this thing stalling and becoming an immoveable object in a snowbank...

Unless the engine got some air bubbles in the coolant that needed to be essentially "burped" out of it...
Has running low on coolant previously caused it to derate?

My opinion remains that your issue is linked to whatever it is doing during what you are calling the "regen" process after you shut it off.
 
What general area are you in? Gelling can start above 25F in some fuels but that is not common with current fuels. Do you know how recently you have put fuel in it and if that fuel was blended for winter use? If in doubt get 5 gallons of K! and dump in the tank.

The 9-1-1 instructions tell you it does not prevent gelling. 9-1-1 is intended to be used to get an engine with gelled fuel or icing going, not a general additive as you description sounds, as improper use can wear/damage injection pumps. The Power Service product for regular use is Diesel Fuel Supplement + Cetane Boost, in the white bottle to reduce fuel gelling temperature.

For the price of a fuel filter, if I thought I had a fuel problem, I would not wait to see a fuel filter sensor light to come on. If your fuel had gelled the filter would be waxed up and need changing.

I don't think the coolant heater is causing you to lose coolant. I quicker expect a hose leaking due to temperature changes. I have seen the hose at a tank type heater leak due to the temp cycles. As they warm from cold the hoses seep and the coolant evaporates on the heater's surface, such can be hard to spot. Go over all the hose clamps, when the engine is hot, so the hoses are pliable, for starters.

To answer your question, we are in Central New York. The diesel that we buy should be a winter mix. But there could have been water remaining in the fuel filter module; which serves as both a filter and sediment/water trap. There could also be some condensation in the jugs that we use to bring diesel home.
 
I agree about the 911. I don't run it normally. My take on 911 is that it's more for icing than gelling.

The instructions for failure to start call for removing the filter, putting 911 in the filter, and then adding a proscribed amount to the fuel.

If the vehicle is just a hard start/run, due to water/ice, etc... it calls for just adding some to the fuel without pulling the filter.

In my case, the tractor still started. I'm all for changing the fuel filter, but I wasn't going to get a fuel filter between Friday night and Sunday.

I am going to replace the filter in the near future; but yeah... I'm going to have to run about 20 gallons of 911-treated fuel through the tractor, at some expense to the life of the engine...hopefully out at 5000 or more hours.
Over the years I have been bit enough times, that I plan to keep a spare filter(s) for diesels on hand, for exactly the reason you gave; it will be needed when the store is closed. Actually, I try to keep a complete set of filters on hand for each engine driven unit, cheap insurance and if the time is right, I can do a service, without adding time chasing parts specifically to be able to do the service.

If you are buying fuel from a station that receives deliveries regularly it should be blended for the season to prevent gelling. Central NY I would expect it is blended.

You might want to look into a funnel like "Mr. Funnel" that will trap water and dirt.

Water sensors can fail. I have pulled filters off and found enough water that the warning lights should have been on, and they were not on. It appears your tractor's filter has a drain on it. If you are concerned with water in your fuel, do you drain it regularly when warm enough the any ice in the filter would be melted (light or no light)?
 
Has running low on coolant previously caused it to derate?

My opinion remains that your issue is linked to whatever it is doing during what you are calling the "regen" process after you shut it off.
It derated a few years ago once. It was during the winter. Other than that, the absolute conditions are a little fuzzy to me. I just remember seeing the check engine light about a half mile from the barn in the middle of a field, in about a foot of standing snow (we were feeding the cows outside)... and limping the machine home. It was due for a fuel filter at the time anyway. I put a new one on and noticed the prongs on the sensor were a little rusty, probably from some water that had settled in the module. I checked coolant levels, I don't recall that it was dangerously low.. replaced the fuel filter... possibly air filter as well... problem went away... I was happy, without knowing the exact cause.
 
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Has running low on coolant previously caused it to derate?

My opinion remains that your issue is linked to whatever it is doing during what you are calling the "regen" process after you shut it off.
That's why I should really find a way to read the exact code that the engine control unit is throwing.
 
Over the years I have been bit enough times, that I plan to keep a spare filter(s) for diesels on hand, for exactly the reason you gave; it will be needed when the store is closed. Actually, I try to keep a complete set of filters on hand for each engine driven unit, cheap insurance and if the time is right, I can do a service, without adding time chasing parts specifically to be able to do the service.

If you are buying fuel from a station that receives deliveries regularly it should be blended for the season to prevent gelling. Central NY I would expect it is blended.

You might want to look into a funnel like "Mr. Funnel" that will trap water and dirt.

Water sensors can fail. I have pulled filters off and found enough water that the warning lights should have been on, and they were not on. It appears your tractor's filter has a drain on it. If you are concerned with water in your fuel, do you drain it regularly when warm enough the any ice in the filter would be melted (light or no light)?
No... guilty as charged.

Perhaps I should be draining that module every so often.
 
So... about three feet, give or take, of snow fell on the farm in the past few days. This is going to be a long explanation; but maybe in reading it, you'll understand why I'm happy with the results of what I did; but I'm not sure what I did that cleared the problem...

Anyway...

Our main tractor with loader is a 2018 Mahindra 6075 with a regenerative exhaust filter (which may or may not be important here). It has about 1500 hours on it.

I plugged the block heater in Thursday night, anticipating a big job for it cleaning driveways and such on Friday.

Friday did not disappoint. I was outside for about four hours, between cleaning the driveways and touching up the compost/manure pile.

When doing loader work, I run the RPMs right at 1500 (the economy setting) for light work. 1800 for heavy work. Friday was an 1800RPM day.

At the end of the day, I figured that I would run it full throttle for a minute or so, as I drove back to the barn and up the ramp into the hayloft dryfloor, where I park it. As soon as I went to go full throttle, the "check engine" light came on, and the engine dogged. It had about 50% power going up the ramp into the hayloft; which made for an interesting drive up the ramp, as I wondered if it was going to make it. Weather conditions at the time: about 25F and heavy snow squall in the air. Big, fat, wet flakes of snow.

It did. I shut it down for the night and made plans for Saturday to do a little bit of maintenance. More snow was predicted over the weekend; and I knew that I would have to be back at it for final cleanup on Sunday.

So... what did I do Saturday?

I put some Diesel 911 in the tank, and I put some cetane boost in the tank.
I checked the coolant. It was just below minimum. There is something about the block heater on this tractor. If I plug in the block heater for a long time, I end up losing coolant when I drive it. No block heater use, no coolant loss. I'll go all summer without losing a drop; and then I lose a pint the first time I plug in the block heater overnight.
I also took the air filter out to check it. I was a little dirty; and there was a little snow packed in the end of the housing. I blew the filter out; and blew the little bit of packed snow out of the housing. I made a note to order an air filter. Looks like it's due.
Checked the oil. Oil was OK. It could use an oil change. I'll do that some sunny weekend in February; when there is no snow to plow and no hay to bale.
I did not check the fuel filter. If I recall, this tractor has a fuel filter sensor; and a specific light would come on. Not just "check engine"

Note: The temperature gauge on the tractor was always pegged right at its operating temperature. At no time did it overheat.


So Sunday, I go out for round two of snow cleanup.

I start the tractor. It starts fine. The "check engine" light stays on for about thirty seconds after startup; and then it clears.

I go out and start clearing the snow from the loafing yard; where we let our cattle out while we clean their pen. The ground is still soggy under the snow; and the tractor is grunting quite a bit, between three to four feet of wet snow and the occasional scalp of mud from the ground. I strain it a little too much, and boom "check engine" comes on again. Engine starts to dog. It runs, but it has no guts whatsoever. I get the loafing yard clean and get the manure pile pushed up and run the tractor up into the hayloft to park it. Weather conditions: about 25F and heavy snow squall in the air. Big, fat wet flakes of snow.

Coolant level is fine. The tractor was not plugged in from Saturday to Sunday. I only used the glow plugs to start it.


My wife comes out, we put the cows out and start cleaning their pen. I'm thinking out loud to her; wondering why the tractor still has issues after cleaning the air filter, levelling up the coolant and putting additive in the fuel. I start thinking about the diesel exhaust regeneration. It only does it when the tractor is shut off. Maybe the exhaust filter is overloaded?

So, what do I do? After we clean the pen, I need to throw down three types of hay from the loft. 1st cut, 2nd cut and bedding. Each time I go up, I start the tractor; which starts easy; since it's still warm. I let it run for about five minutes, and I shut it down. Each time, I hear the relay clicks and buzzing that is indicative of the exhaust filter regen. What was the behavior during these three restarts?

1st restart: "check engine" stays on for about thirty seconds, then clears. Stays clear. The exhaust looks a little "steamy" while it runs at 1500RPM for about five minutes. I shut the tractor down and the exhaust filter regens.
2nd restart: No trouble lights at all at any point. The exhaust looks clear. I shut the tractor down and the exhaust filter regens.
3rd restart: Same as 2nd.

After we bring the cows back in, my wife goes in the house; and I take the tractor out for a final cleanup of the driveways and such. Weather conditions: about 25F and clear.

Tractor runs fine the whole time. I'm out for about two hours. I have to get off and shovel about six or eight times during that stretch. Each time, I shut down the engine and let the exhaust filter regen.

At the end of that time, I horse the engine to climb the ramp into the hayloft; and the tractor steams up the ramp as if it was brand new.

So... I'm at a loss for what fixed my issue.

Is it a matter of the exhaust filter needing more regenerations per run time?
Is it a matter of the tractor drawing snowflakes into the air breather during heavy, wet, snowfall?
Is it a matter of the fuel filter was gummed up; and it just needed more operating time for the Diesel 911 and Cetane boost to take effect?
Is the block heater boiling some coolant into the cylinders; which causes my exhaust filter to get gummed up during the next operation, requiring more regens to clear?

I really don't know.

I despise these "check engine" lights. I think the tractor has an OBD II port. I think we have a scanner around the farm. (Our son-in-law that lives with us has one in his tools.) I need to make sure I know where that scanner is, if this happens again.
Might want to check the trouble shooting section of the operators manual. If that does not help check the support page of the manufacturer's website. If that still does not help I would call the dealer for help.
 
Might want to check the trouble shooting section of the operators manual. If that does not help check the support page of the manufacturer's website. If that still does not help I would call the dealer for help.
info from the web on this is a little sketchy... what I think I can do is glean possible reasons that the engine would derate from the owner's manual... not sure. I've been through it before; but yes, another reading is in my near future, now that the snow-crisis is over.
 
Might want to check the trouble shooting section of the operators manual. If that does not help check the support page of the manufacturer's website. If that still does not help I would call the dealer for help.
While Mahindra isn't as bad as John Deere, or other companies with respect to "right to repair"... I have found some information that is hidden behind dummy lights and such...essentially forcing you to the dealer.... or to try to figure out the exact code.

For instance, when the 500 hour oil change came due, a wrench light came on, on the console... and the tractor would beep for a minute every time you started it. I did the oil change, but the dealer had to give me the secret code to stop the beeping. They didn't "have" to do that. Probably, by protocol, the dealer should come out and perform the service... or haul the tractor in... neither of which is cheap.

I would rather spend the extra money on filters, fluids, etc... and reserve the high cost incident for true high cost incidents... A complete set of filters is 150 bucks. Hauling to a dealer for service could cost 200 each way, given the distance to the dealer.
 
info from the web on this is a little sketchy... what I think I can do is glean possible reasons that the engine would derate from the owner's manual... not sure. I've been through it before; but yes, another reading is in my near future, now that the snow-crisis is over.
Where in central NY?
Thoughts. I have a Fiat/Allis dozer. The engine is Fiat/Iveco, whatever? For a long time it used coolant. I was concerned it was internal, but never showed up or bothered. Then the water pump finally gave out. This was one of two times where I witnessed an engine losing coolant without it showing up. The other time was a new Cummins 5.9 with a cracked block (from inferior casting)in a Freightliner FL70. As mentioned above, I think a tiny leak just boiled off before showing up.
I have a John Deere 317G compact track loader with a Yanmar engine. It has a two part muffler- a particulate part and a catalyst part. No DEF. I have had it off and baked after it messed up. A tech came out and ran his computer on it a while also. I used to run it 1600 RPM or so doing light work. But when it goes to automatic high idle, it goes to 2000 RPM. So that's where I run it most of the time now. So far, so good.
 
Where in central NY?
Thoughts. I have a Fiat/Allis dozer. The engine is Fiat/Iveco, whatever? For a long time it used coolant. I was concerned it was internal, but never showed up or bothered. Then the water pump finally gave out. This was one of two times where I witnessed an engine losing coolant without it showing up. The other time was a new Cummins 5.9 with a cracked block (from inferior casting)in a Freightliner FL70. As mentioned above, I think a tiny leak just boiled off before showing up.
I have a John Deere 317G compact track loader with a Yanmar engine. It has a two part muffler- a particulate part and a catalyst part. No DEF. I have had it off and baked after it messed up. A tech came out and ran his computer on it a while also. I used to run it 1600 RPM or so doing light work. But when it goes to automatic high idle, it goes to 2000 RPM. So that's where I run it most of the time now. So far, so good.
Near Utica.

My hunch with our tractor is a seal on the water pump, given that it only acts up in cold weather, and I've never seen any issues in or with the engine itself.

I also know... from work in reliability engineering... that, if a failure is truly random, there is no good time to replace the part... the new part is just as apt to fail as the old... so I'm giving the coolant usage a little time to tip its hand as to the exact cause, before replacing the water pump.

So far, it has been a curiosity at best and a nuisance at worst... as in, needing to keep a gallon of anti-cavitation diesel-approved antifreeze in the shop at home, to use at a rate of one quart per year...
 
Near Utica.

My hunch with our tractor is a seal on the water pump, given that it only acts up in cold weather, and I've never seen any issues in or with the engine itself.

I also know... from work in reliability engineering... that, if a failure is truly random, there is no good time to replace the part... the new part is just as apt to fail as the old... so I'm giving the coolant usage a little time to tip its hand as to the exact cause, before replacing the water pump.

So far, it has been a curiosity at best and a nuisance at worst... as in, needing to keep a gallon of anti-cavitation diesel-approved antifreeze in the shop at home, to use at a rate of one quart per year...
Lucky you. No snow here.
 
Ok… You likely already know this/don’t want to hear it, but you really need to read your owner’s manual. It ought to provide all of the answers to the things that you’re not certain about. Be careful about “information” from other sources. There are far too many people out there that think they know exactly what your problem is. They don’t.

Also, I would expect (but I have not read your owner’s manual) that after treatment issues/faults would be indicated by a different warning light than a check engine light. My experience is such.

Good luck!
 
Lucky you. No snow here.
The lake effect over the weekend was very "bandy"... an east west strip across the state that moved north and south. Sometimes we were in the middle of it. Sometimes we were on the edge of it, when it was either north or south of us... but we were mostly... always in it...

As of Sunday AM... Our dogs had to tunnel off down the steps from our laundry/mud room to the lawn to do their business.... so, not only did we need to use the tractor to clear the driveways...we had to do some good old-fashioned shoveling just to make some rooms for the dogs to get outside, lol.
 
Ok… You likely already know this/don’t want to hear it, but you really need to read your owner’s manual. It ought to provide all of the answers to the things that you’re not certain about. Be careful about “information” from other sources. There are far too many people out there that think they know exactly what your problem is. They don’t.

Also, I would expect (but I have not read your owner’s manual) that after treatment issues/faults would be indicated by a different warning light than a check engine light. My experience is such.

Good luck!
Yes...

And also... there are many things that I love about this tractor, its general heft and power... there is a lot of steel in the chassis...

There is also a decent map of possible dashboard indicators in the manual.

But... it's weak point in practice is the actual veracity of indicators on the dash... it seems that Mahindra isn't afraid to use a lot of steel, but they skimp on copper. After 500 hours, my park indicator and 4wd indicator both became intermittent. At about 1000 hours... they don't work more often than they do. These are indicators that I KNOW when they should be lit, and they aren't.

The wiring to the sensors is about as thick as spider web.

I trust sensor readings on this machine about as far as I can throw its 9000lbs of steel... there could be an indicator that should come on with the "check engine" that isn't, because the 44AWG (I'm kidding... sorta...) wire to the sensor's dashboard indicator has opened...

(as an aside... let me tell you about the time that the PTO would just turn on at random times, because water would collect in the boot of the little electronic switch on the console...and short the switch...)

So, sometimes, I like to verify the absence or presence of indicators with other information.

(but also... back in 2019, we bought this tractor, a brand new 76HP/61 PTO HP, heavy duty, 4WD tractor with a loader for about 36K... when Kubota was a lighter machine and would have cost about 50K... in practice, as far as doing work? this machine has been a beast... so... I'll put up with some ouija board indicators... I wish that I could have my cake and eat it too... but often can't)
 
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I don't know what your tractor was doing at shut down, especially now that you don't think you have diesel particulate filter. But that is not how a 'regen' works. The engine has to be running. I had thought at first all the relay clicking was the DEF system purging it's lines. Maybe it was heating the DOC for minute after shutdown. But that could not last long because it would kill the battery. I am interested to learn how Mahindra makes this work.
I also thought when you drove it up the steep ramp that the low coolant sensor was uncovered going uphill, and that derated it. But that's not it either apparently. Let us know what you do find out. Mark.
you are right about it purging the DEF, the lines have to be purged or it will freeze then bigger issues, would not surprise me if the DEF is not thawing to allow the temp/level/concentration sensor to tell the unit it can inject DEF within the allotted run time per the computer, if it doesn't inject DEF it will put it into limp mode. Some if not all, I can't say for 100%, units will not allow you to clear a DEF code and it will be stuck in a loop of start run go to limp, you may have to have dealer/service tech with the right computer come reset the fault code! one thing that will help, whether you plug the block in or not is get it somewhere warm, or a heater on it, the DEF freezes at 26F, you only have so much run time before it has to be thawed enough to inject the DEF or you repeat the derate and CEL cycle!
 
Can't help you with what your problem is, but I can tell you what it is not... It's not snowflakes. The air intake of a typical tractor is designed to keep the big chunks of dirt and the rain water out. The opening to let the air in appears to be completely within the hood, correct me if I'm wrong. Especially after operating the tractor for hours.

In all of this have you tried operating the tractor at high RPM the entire time yet? Older diesels liked to "wet stack" if you just loafed them around. Newer diesels like to have emissions equipment problems if you loaf them around. Maybe beat it like a rented mule more often...
 
Can't help you with what your problem is, but I can tell you what it is not... It's not snowflakes. The air intake of a typical tractor is designed to keep the big chunks of dirt and the rain water out. The opening to let the air in appears to be completely within the hood, correct me if I'm wrong. Especially after operating the tractor for hours.

In all of this have you tried operating the tractor at high RPM the entire time yet? Older diesels liked to "wet stack" if you just loafed them around. Newer diesels like to have emissions equipment problems if you loaf them around. Maybe beat it like a rented mule more often...
The air intake is within the hood. There was a ring of ice? Snow? Melted and refrozen snowflakes? Something... inside the air filter housing. But I doubt that was the problem, as the problem came back after blowing it out. I still haven't ruled out that it was just an issue that the filter needs to be changed... because I haven't operated with a new filter yet. Sure, I blew the visible stuff out of the filter housing, you know... the typical little bit of bugs, dust n stuff that you find in any air filter housing... but it's harder to tell if the element itself has collected enough microscopic stuff to be an issue. A its been long enough since an air filter change that I'm just doing that pro forma.

This Mahindra has a unique exhaust treatment (as I'm told by their website) that does convert emissions to water and carbon dioxide; which would explain the little bursts of steam that I see out of the exhaust in cold weather... as opposed to the tractor actually sucking in snowflakes or a wet air filter from melting snowflakes...

Maybe it does get a little overloaded when the engine isn't running full bore? Not sure. I've been going by the temperature gauge. One thing that I try to do is... when I start the tractor in the winter, I never shut if off until it has gotten up to operating temperature. And often, it has to sit and run for a little while in cold to get the hydraulics working right, otherwise the hydraulic clutches are super slow to get the darn thing moving when you shift gears.

Maybe I should horse it during these warm up periods, instead of running at 1500RPM?

Maybe I should, as you say... work it like a rented mule... once in a while... never seem to have these issues in the summer; when it's 85F and I'm mowing or baling hay at 2000 RPM for hours at a rip.

I owe a couple of guys here pictures of the exhaust treatment setup and a reply as to how I made out.

According to the forecast, looks like I'll have an update towards the end of the week; as I'll need to get out and move a bunch of snow again.
 
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