Diesel IH 574 Timing Pointer

[Go4Broke2]

I have been working trying to set the timing on a diesel IH 574. The pointer that you use to set the degree marks is bent down. Is it supposed to be that way and if so how does one line up the the pointer at 14 BTDC? I thought I had it set at 14 BTDC, the IP cam mark was where it is supposed to be and the keyway is at 10 o'clock, but it belches, stutters, and stalls so I am guessing that it isn't at 14 BTDC.

 

[ih560]

I am guessing it has the bosch BR or CR pump, the timing pointer may have been bent to realign it to the proper position by a pump shop upon rebuild. The way to verify the position of the pointer requires a dial indicator on the plunger of the pump to measure when it should begin injecting. You need the specs and it is best done by a pump shop.

This is much easier to verify on an inline pump because you can use the spill method.

 

[ih560]

I forgot to answer your other question, you can use a timing light with a piezo clamp "Feret" adapter on the injector line to verify where your timing is.

 

[Go4Broke2]

(quoted from post at 12:05:59 05/05/17) I forgot to answer your other question, you can use a timing light with a piezo clamp "Feret" adapter on the injector line to verify where your timing is.

It is a BR pump. Sounds like I am in way over my head. I should have stuck with my old TO 30 Ferguson.

 

[JimB2]

Hi Go4Broke2, was the IP removed/replaced? If so the IP could be 180 degrees out of time. You have to determine that #1 cyl is on
compression stroke when Pointer is at 14 BTDC. A quick test, scribe a mark on hub and IP drive gear, remove 3 cap screws and put
socket on pump drive shaft nut and turn it 1 rev in direction of IP rotation until the scribe mark lines up. Re-install 3 screws
and try to start engine. If engine starts properly then it was 180 out of time. Fine tune timing. Otherwise return the IP to
original time by turning 1 more rev to scribe line.

JimB

 

[Go4Broke2]

Hello jimb2. I did remove the IP to replace a blown IP shaft seal as a result of a plugged return line check valve. The shaft rotated a little, but went back into the key. I had a paint mark on the IP and the mounting surface to get the pump back in line. I'll give your advice a try and see what I get. The pointer is bent downwards and ih560 said that a rebuild shop may have done that. Hopefully I can get it close enough to run. Thanks.

 

[JimB2]

Hi, when you take the IP off to replace the drive shaft seal, DO NOT loosen the cap screws on the drive hub, only remove the nut on the end of the IP drive shaft. The IP drive shaft will turn a slight amount when it is removed BUT if you turn the shaft you must turn it 2 revs in direction of rotation otherwise it will be 180 out of time. The IP drive only turns at half the speed of crankshaft therefore 2 revs of crank to 1 of IP so TDC on crank pulley will appear 2 times and only the one when cyl #1 on compression stroke is correct.

JimB

 

[Dieseltech]

If the timing case pointer is bent down slightly, and front pulley is on the 14 degree mark, then it would actually be advanced a bit since the pointer should be straight. Seal probably needed changed because it got hard or cracked, or the housing bushings are worn not keeping the shaft centered. Even if the return side has a high restriction it won't effect the seal, it's vented to the fuel inlet side on VA and VE housings. AR, BR, and CR pumps all have the pump cam mark aligned with the tab at 1 MM lift of the plunger. Early VA pumps had two timing lines for both CW and CCW rotation pumps, mark with the L is for CCW use. To avoid mark confusion when I have pumps apart with both I remove the L mark from the cam plate.

 

[Dieseltech]

Just remembered one more common mistake on AR and BR pumps, is the restricted fuel line bolt in the top return line? If it's in the front inlet line that will cause exactly what you have too..

 

[Go4Broke2]

I have actually replaced the shaft seal twice. The first time it was the old seal and I thought that it was worn out do to age. The second time it was diluting fuel I pulled the tank check valve and there was some crud in the end of the stand pipe that I had to use a small punch to break through. I pulled the pump the second time and the seal was actually pushed out and was being chewed up by the shaft key. I think I have the banjo bolts in correctly. The bolt with the dimple is on the return line and the plain bolt is on the feed line. When I had the seal out I checked the shaft for wear and play. I couldn't feel any wear with a fingernail and did not detect any side to side or up and down play. The pointer is bent down approximately 1/8" from being straight. I put a straight edge on top of the pointer where it is straight and used it to intersect the 14 BTDC line. I then adjusted everything where I thought it should be, but it didn't make any difference in how it ran. I beginning to think this outfit was rebuilt by someone who used Kentucky wind-age to get it to run.
Thanks.

 

[Go4Broke2]

I'll give that a try tomorrow. It did turn some so maybe it is 180 degrees out. I didn't loosen the cap bolts when I replaced the pump, but I did today to try to get the cam mark to line up. How hard is it to turn the hub to line up the cam mark? I tried by hand and had no luck in doing so. I then tried to use the shaft nut and it also turns the crankshaft pulley so it then is off the 14 BTDC mark.
Thanks.

 

[JimB2]

Hi, the IP shaft should turn easily in direction of rotation with a socket on the nut.

JimB

 

[Go4Broke2]

I tried the socket on the shaft nut too, but it turned the pump gear which then turned the crankshaft so it was no longer at 14 BTDC. Could it be that something is binding the hub to the pump gear?

 

[Dieseltech]

If the pump is still in place on engine, remember there's a key in the shaft and hub. That's why the engine is turning too. VA/VE pumps have spring loaded cam, they will turn similar to an inline pump far as effort goes. Does not turn easily like Stanadyne/ Roosa, or CAV DPA pumps do when pump is off the engine.

 

[Go4Broke2]

I guess I am having a hard time figuring how this all goes together. I have the IH service manual and it is about as worthless as teats on a boar hog. Maybe I'll have a eureka moment during the night and it will become clear.

 

[Dieseltech]

E-mail is open on Classic, send me a message if you like to know more about that pump.

 

[Go4Broke2]

Will do. I appreciate the help. Thank you.

 

[Hugh McKinney]

It has been a long time since I heard anybody besides me refer to something being as worthless as teats on a boar hog. Thanks for putting a smile on my face! Hugh

 

[Go4Broke2]

I followed the directions, however, when it came to turning the hub with the bolts out there wasn't any movement except for the whole hub and pump drive gear turning as a unit. If I am thinking correctly the hub is an independent piece from the pump drive gear and shouldn't be affected by the key. I currently have it sitting at 14 BTDC after viewing #4 in the lower left of the access hole. The pump cam timing mark it set just above the pointer and the key way is at 10 -11 o'clock viewed from the front. Is there another way to get the additional revolution like removing the pump, turn the shaft setting it at the cam timing mark, and then reinstalling pump.

 

[JimB2]

Hi, I was away all day at my brother's helping him work on his 684, split for clutch/pressure plate replacement and water pump.

With the 3 bolts out the hub should turn freely inside the drive gear but you can remove the IP, turn the shaft 1 rev and re-install but that is a lot of work if it is worse as you will have to remove IP again and turn another 1 rev to put back to were you were at.

JimB