Don't be like this guy....The fate of our hobby

Old F-14

Member

Forward: I am in my early 30's.

Recently, I've been looking for an older pre-war hand start standard tread project tractor. Pickings for such are slim here in rural Michigan - stuff is mostly post war, or row-crop. It seems what I'm looking for has been hoarded in collections, LOL.

Anyways, I follow up on a lead yesterday on a W-30. The fellow selling it is a very well known and revered tractor guy in this state. He probably had 150+ tractors, many very rare.

I get there, and it is very evident that he is a hoarder, probably aged in his 70's, but the type that says he is "saving" stuff, but leaves them outside with open exhausts and such.

He gives me the tour and starts complaining about how there's no younger people in the hobby and in 30 years its all going to be worthless. He goes on and on about how the hobby needs younger people, and how its dying.

So we finally get to the subject W-30. Its partially apart, sitting in the semi-frozen mud, with standing visible water in the open exhaust of the manifold. Parts for it are scattered all over the place in the dirt. Hes like "it will need a little TLC" almost in the tone a used car salesman would use. He had told me he wouldn't want much for it on the phone, just wanted to see it saved... HAHAHA. He shoots me a price of $1500, my jaw drops in disbelief. Literally this thing is worth not much more then iron price. I tell him thats way more then I see in it, and he tells me well to play you gotta pay. I politely tell him thats to high, and we talk about other things. This tractor was not worth much more then iron price. I could use it as a project, but it would have to be priced accordingly to how rough it is.

So I make small talk before I leave and he starts complaining again about how the tractor club hes president of is dying out and there is no young people to fill in. I almost said, well, when a parts-tractor W-30 is $1500 kinda filters out the young people wrenching on stuff. I kept my mouth shut but I had those thoughts. This is not the first time something like this has happened over the years, they complain about no young people or their hobby dying, but they can't see the correlation of their own actions.

Anyways just had to get a rant off my chest. Its his junk and he can do whatever he wants with it, but it was disturbing to me to see so much rare iron that he just has and dosen't even bother to cover the exhausts. He tried to justify it to me saying "well, they'll all need rebuilding anyways".

Also don't complain about no young people in the hobby if a young guy comes around wanting a project and you quote him $1500 for a W-30 on rotten off rims and engine full of water and parts scattered in the frozen mud!
 
Sounds like Uncle Bill from Pennemite Hill. He was rumored to have destroyed the "last one" of something rather than accept an offer that was lower than his price. I was trying to buy a used rear for my F-14. His was a different size than mine and it had a huge hole in it.
 
I've ran into the same problem, I always hear I gonna get that one running next, while all around it's not much more than a pile of c!!p.
 
He was a character. I bought a set of steel wheels for an F14 from him. He said he would get them off for me - took a torch and cut off the axles. Destroyed the cultivator that was attached moving the tractor
to the shop.Don't ask about using a credit card. I used to love just walking around the place - it was always a trip through history. I wish the place was still in business.
 
I know a lot of those hoarder type that don't have one tractor. Rather than buy tractors the hoard cash! they hide there hoarding of cash by hiding it in such as the stock market and 401K's, Why in the world would keep all that cash away from others obtaining it.
 
I'd of told him straight up about his complaining about young people. I'd of also mentioned about showing up at his estate sale so you can buy stuff at scrap prices !
 
I agree if its setting out side then your not saving any thing. Not only water getting in the motor but water getting in the transmission. Ive bought 4 parts tractors and all 4 four had transmissions full of water
 
Be patient, for every 10 guys like that, there are 10 more that would gladly give you a machine in the condition you described just to see it go to a good home and hopefully someday be brought back to life.

We probably all have collected way more than we will ever have time to repair/restore in our lifetimes and we can't take them with us.

If you were closer I have a nice DC-4 sitting out back complete with a good engine sitting in the shop that I bought to put in it many years ago.

Heck I would even help you load it up.
 

Determined has good advice for you - listen to him. But as to the original codger, you really should have got your rant off your chest at him. He is old and may not even be aware of how he sounded. He may not even realize that while he was complaining about lack of young people being interested, he was being unfair to the one standing right in front of him.

Whan a giy gets up in the 70s they do not always think right, but most can be straightened out for a while with the right words spoken kindly and sincerely. Persoanally, if I thought the tractor would make a good project I would take another run at him and maybe offer him an opportunity to come over and wrench on it a bit some time.
 

Determined has good advice for you - listen to him. But as to the original codger, you really should have got your rant off your chest at him. He is old and may not even be aware of how he sounded. He may not even realize that while he was complaining about lack of young people being interested, he was being unfair to the one standing right in front of him.

Whan a giy gets up in the 70s they do not always think right, but most can be straightened out for a while with the right words spoken kindly and sincerely. Persoanally, if I thought the tractor would make a good project I would take another run at him and maybe offer him an opportunity to come over and wrench on it a bit some time.
 
I am sure there are people here that have W30s and love them ---- and I domt mean to insult them ----BUT --- If you are going to take on a major restoration such as you described the condition of this tractor----- EVEN if he had paid you 500 to take it and helped you haul it -- you would still have a money pit and would never recover your investment . Of course there are tractors that people restore such as what there grand dad had and have sentimental value and money invested is not relevant.
Take your time and look around some more. If you start with a major restoration as your first tractor it will likely wear you down and it will never get finished or not even close to running. Some day you will be the old man with the tractor in pices all over the place and think it is worth a lot of money.
 
Sounds rather insulting to call this guy a hoarder. If he bought and paid for any item, regardless what it was, and either wants his money back or a profit from it. Doesn?t make him a hoarder, only a man doing business. Perhaps he could part the tractor out for the same money, so why sell it for less to a younger guy that thinks he deserves special price just because. Grow up and get real. And don?t worry about the hobby of collecting tractors dying, if a item is rare enough, there will always be someone willing to lay down hard cash. Even if it is just for the parts off of some old neglected tractor. Salvage yards have been hoarding and destroying tractors so other tractors could be kept running for decades
 
Unkle Bill must have really driven over the edge the last several years he was going. He was always a character but the bottom line was that he was always reasonable
as opposed to downright crazy. The nephew supposedly ran it for a couple of years after Bill was out. I kind of lost track of what was happening with that place. Rumor
that always got back to me was the neighbors down on the lake got it shut down due to alleged contaminated runoff. A couple guys here said that was not true so what is
the story? There are other places doing used tractor and implement parts and making money so maybe until a couple of years ago the profitability should have been
there in that business.
 
I think they both died off without someone taking over after the nephew. The place is really badly overgrown with brush even in the final years so it got hard to find stuff. I know the town was always after him for property assessment and taxes. Since he always demanded cash you know there were few records. I never had a problem with the guy. Once you understood how he was you could get along fine with him. I once heard him on the phone to tell a potential customer where he could put his credit card and hung up. Took me a while to stop laughing over that one. I miss the place.
 
I'm doing my part to keep the hobby going - just purchased numbers 11 and 12 this fall. Wife has decided I'm crazy. Could be right. I like to use my tractors for real work and now I'm down to working only 7 acres. When I have a tractor each implement I think I will stop. LOL
 
I did the multiple tractors with one implement each and one key fits all. I had multiple implements with some duplicates. Wife said, you have sold all equipment except a loader, PHD, a boom pole and a back blade. When do the rest of the tractors get sold? Oh, oh. LOL
 
Look up auction results. For 1500 you could almost buy 2 complete and loose. Granted, there would be shipping, but you would be money ahead.
Going back to your post, if the tractor was in scrap condition, just walk away. It is his tractor and he can price it how ever he sees fit.
 
Could be. What gives the runoff story credence in my mind is during the 1990's is when the Finger Lakes was rapidly going from people you knew having a cottage to people from the city buying a cottage and mostly not from the region. People from NYC, Boston, or LA are far less accepting of such a place up the road from them versus people who have been nearby for decades prior. Not saying the Bill had a runoff problem but maybe that was the approach used by the newcomers to be rid of Bill unethical as it may be.
 
Bruce ..... I agree 100% with your reply. I think too often we tend to categorize people with all sorts of negative descriptions just because we don't agree with their take on something. If you don't agree with his collection or his habits or his price, turn around and walk away. I don't see the sense of posting it on a forum, it's almost what they call these days as "shaming." Had the fellow said to give him $25 and haul it away, then all of a sudden he's be a great guy who was trying to keep the hobby alive. The fact is, the high price is what initiated this post in the first place, all the other stuff is white noixe.
 
Once, a few decades ago I needed the central casting from an Allis "G" from Mr. Steiner to replace mine which was missing a few "ears" where the front end bolted to it. Besides an entire row of horribly over-priced complete "G" tractors, he probably had a dozen parts "G"s, all dismantled and piled on pallets in his yard on Saginaw st. I picked out a good part and asked how much for the 10 lbs. of cast iron. "1000.oo, plus tax" was his reply, "Take it or leave it."
I told him I would leave it and then asked if he wanted to buy my complete Allis outright, thinking if that lone casting is worth a grand, a good running, clean original tractor (in far better condition than any he had in his yard) must be worth at least 20,000!

"Sure, he said, I'll give you 150.oo for it if you bring it here, but if I have to go get it, I charge a dollar (both ways) for every mile I have to drive." At that rate I woulda owed him!
When I asked why his single part was worth more than 6 times my entire tractor he said it was because his part wasn't damaged.. The last time I drove past that place, it looked like those pallets of parts and row of Allis tractors were still there.

I still see Dave occasionally at farm auctions. At 80+ (I'm guessing) he's still buying up old tractors and implements- as many as he can fit on his old flatbed GMC hauler, and he'll drive cross-country as many trips as it takes to get it all.

I dont know if he succeeds, but I'm sure he tries to bill the auctioneer for his mileage!
 

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(quoted from post at 09:06:54 01/07/20) I know a lot of those hoarder type that don't have one tractor. Rather than buy tractors the hoard cash! they hide there hoarding of cash by hiding it in such as the stock market and 401K's, Why in the world would keep all that cash away from others obtaining it.

isnt the stock market where you buy into a company and they get to use your money for making stuff and hiring people????????? and in return you either get a dividend or appreciation of the stock, hopefully both. And by spreading the risk among lots of quality companies you historically will come out ahead????????

and putting money in a bank means they can loan it out to others and make interest on the money for both you and the bank? And others then get to use that money to build homes or buy cars???????
 
Old F-14, say there young fellar, a couple things come to mind. Don't get discouraged, but the antique/classic tractor pricing is unusually regional. I'm more into late 40 to early 60s and good rebuildable project tractors out in Iowa, Nebraska and even Minn. are about a 500-1000$ bucks cheaper than here in Michigan. I'm a poor boy in a rich man's hobby, I get that, but still I haven't found the cure. More importantly, and I think you've already figured this out is; whether it be a tractor, boat, car, house what ever, there's two ways that people, both buyers and sellers look at a situation. One is to imagine what the potential is, and the other is to look at the work entailed to achieve that potential. It took me a long time to learn this distinction but once you do you're much more likely not to over spend. Yeah, if you're equipped with a machine shop and all the accrued knowledge and tools it might be an easy thing to knock a tractor down and restore it, but I'm not going to pay for some one else's sentimental value, or the object's unreasonable perceived value.

Anyway, you didn't mention what part of the greatest state in the union: the great lakes state, that you're in. Sounds like you're on the east side. I'm flashing three fingers in a upward direction indicating West Side .you know trying to be cool like I see on all the rap videos the kids watch these days, heh heh.

Good luck in your endeavors, and let us know what you end up wrenching on,
JD
 
Don't feel too bad, its the same fate for model train clubs, model airplane clubs, real airplane clubs, car clubs, etc. The cost today for items like tractors, airplanes, old cars, model train layouts is out of touch with the young. I used to belong to several clubs like that, all populated by old men that could afford it, nary a young guy to be found. Sad but now I can understand gaming and its attraction. Like your old tractor hoarder I have run into many like that, whine about their hobby dying out but yet unable or unwilling to understand why. I wonder where all the experienced mentors went to? When I was a kid all the old guys took me under there wing and shared their passion and experience to get me going, and they did. Now I believe its all about me me me. Life I guess. Years back I tried to get aviation summer school for kids started to teach the young to fly, not one old guy stepped up to help, too busy with themselves. Rant over, thanks.
 
As usual, most missing the point...

The point wasn't as much the high price, but the COMPLAINING about how young people aren't interested.

Complain, OR be high priced. Not both. That just makes you a word that is censored on this site, period.
 
Hit send to early...

Complain and be part of the SOLUTION.

You've got no right to complain if you're part of the problem.

So many old guys complain, but they won't show young people how to do anything. They just expect these kids come out of the womb with the knowledge, and if the kids don't understand, well, they're just too stupid to live...
 
I would like to BUY a dc4 if close enough. Hauling loses some deals for me. E mailopen I am 75 so
not looking for a gift.
 
I have a neighbor like that. A horder with big buildings full of stuff he thinks is worth twice what it actually is. Also has some land up for sale at seriously above what the local average is. Needless to say he hasn't sold any of it even though all of it is for sale. I've seen this a number of times before and how it will go; He is mid 70s and has already had a serious health scare. He will kick off one day, sooner than later, and his kids will dump all of it for a song just to settle the estate and end arguing.
 
The <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endowment_effect">endowment effect</a> affects everyone, not just hoarders.
 
Buy cheap,sell high trade when you get some 'boot' sounds like a good business plan.Why trade things of equal value without compensation? Might as well keep what you got.
 
Several years back when I was a used farm and equipment dealer I ran into all sorts of owners, hoarders, collectors, dealers, farmers, when I was trying to buy equipment. As far as I'm concerned its a free world and a persons own choice (regardless what any of us think he should do) to sell at any price he can get or set it so high no one can afford or refuse to sell or give it away or hoard however he pleases. I tried to buy low and sell high lol that's how I made my living. I cant count how many places I visited where the owner refused to price or sell as HE INTENDED TO FIX UT UP SOMEDAY but that day never comes and they get sick or die then the widow has an auction, seen it over n over, but that's their choice not ours. If everyone would just do as we thought they should LOL.

John T
 
We have a tractor club here that is dwindling to nothing because the leaders are not willing to change anything. Any events are for tractors 1960 and older. That pretty much eliminates the kids (60yrs +) that grew up on 4020s and 806s and newer and have restored them.
 
I agree with Bruce.You may not like the guy or what his feelings are but he owns it at the present.
 
Clubs of all types are dwindling in membership,for whatever reason.Take a given area collectors have their tractors they bring to the local show over and over,after 15 or 20 years things get pretty stale for the exhibitors and the spectators most people are ready to move on to different things.I used to go to a lot of shows and pulls now I'm perfectly happy running my old tractors and equipment on my farm and talking to whoever comes by the place.Talked to a guy this morning that stopped in never met him before he was interested about some of the old tractors I have,we walked around looked at a few and he decided he'd come back a nicer day since it had started snowing.Things like that happen all the time here at my place.
 
Nothing uncommon. I went to an auction a coupla weeks ago in Winchester. Going out of business old man has health problems family tired of dealing with him and business. He had to approve of every sale, took twice as long rainy cold. He got mad that the stuff wasn't bringing twice what he paid for it at other auctions LOL. I tried buying a JD 1520 row crop. steering gone trans full of water engine froze inj pump missing tires shot. I bid to $800 He wanted $2000 LOL
 
Guy around here has more tractors then he can count in various stages of disrepair. He did have what looked like a pretty nice early electric start JD B with good rubber he said ran good. Told me I could have it for $1500, not a steal but fair I thought. Took me a couple weeks to put the cash together, showed up, counted out 15 $100 bills, he looked at me and said "oh no, I need $2500 for that one". I took back my money and left. Found out after I left that he thought he should get it started and cleaned up only to find out the motor froze up and carb filled with water, froze and broke. I dodged a bullet on that one. That was almost 10 years ago and it's still froze up, just pulled into a shed.
 

25 years ago I was interacting with a 95 year old spinster lady. She needed to sell a piece of property that she had been renting but not collecting the rent on for a number of years. According to her everything about the property was tip top. The water heater could not be bad she had put it in only a little over 20 yers ago. Fast forward 25 years and I can walk past things here that I haven't touched in thirty years but it seems like only five years ago that I put it there so it couldn't have deteriorated that much. Right?
 
For a first project I would look for a complete and running tractor to work on. IMHO the seller did you a big favor by not selling you that tractor.

Would an average running W-30 or an older restoration in running condition with poor tires bring $1500 anymore? Once completed can you do much with a W-30 now-a-days besides parades and plow days?
 
I can understand it if the acreage was limited and there were a couple dozen tractors or more. The club I belonged to wanted to make plow days 2 bottom plows or smaller even though guys ran out of ambition before they ran out of ground as it was. Inflexibility and aversion to outsiders/newcomers have ended many tractor clubs. I'd like to belong to a club but think that just is not going to happen given the current climate around here. Not many clubs left anymore and they absolutely do not want new blood.
 
I feel for the OP, and hope he doesn't get too discouraged. Old tractors need some younger blood so keep up the good work, and get what you can at the right price.

Here's my story of woe, but not tractor related. I collect and refurbish old airplanes. There was one advertised for sale for a 'reasonable' price about 240 miles away. I call and ask questions, make an appt to go look at it. A few days later I fly in to look at the plane. It's an unsafe barely held together mess. It is clearly un-airworthy, and dangerous. I tell the seller 'no thanks' without being upset, or getting into a argument. Before I leave, he lowers the price $2000.

I advised him I can't see doing business, and he keeps pestering me about why I won't buy this nice plane(paint was fairly good). He tells me how good the plane is, and how he's giving it away. The typical salesman pitch. Finally I get frustrated and go over to the plane and start pointing out all the problems, including unsafe prop, failing gear joints, flaps wrong, cracks in the flight controls, etc. Then - he gets upset! There's $20,000 worth of repairs on the plane, and I'm the bad guy? Sadly, it's still for sale, for about $10,000 under what I rejected, and it's still overpriced.
 
Thank You for your offer, but I sold that "G" many years ago. The only orange machines I have now are an Allis "D" grader and some "VAC" Cases.
 
There's another side to this story.

In my past I have sold items to others only to find out they 'flipped' it and made as much or more off of it as I did. There is the possibility that he probably wanted it to go to somebody who would definately fix it up rather than resell it or part it out on Ebay. So he priced it so you probably wouldn't make much off it if you sold it.
 
Not much different in farming, the old generation complains no one young is farming any more, retire a year later and rent to someone running 20,000 acres.

Well, duh.

Paul
 
I guess I'm a hoarder as I have about 50 old tractors with some
sitting outdoors...I usually get 2 going every year..I have several
that I'd probably sell for a little less than what I have in them,
especially to a younger collector but there are practically none
in my area..The W-30 described wouldn't bring $250 on a auction..
 
Lot of good replies to your post. Some I agree with, some I don't. Don't be discouraged. There are many tractors around in my area that guys and ladies say they'll get fixed up but never do. They rot away and it breaks everyone's heart.

There are plenty of people around complaining about the local youngsters not being interested in farming. Completely untrue. The youngsters are there. One party is either not listening or the other party is not loud enough. It's a lethal combination of both usually.

Got plenty of old tractors around. We farm and truck too much to get any real work done on them anymore but whenever Grandpa and Uncle are wanting something new to work on we oblige another project. Recently pulled in my G-Grandfathers best friend's Farmall M. 1939 model. Used it many years for chores but ended up sitting outside after newer tractors came. It's all opened up now. Needs the head worked and other minor things. Uncle's 16 year old step son is showing interest. Thinks about being a mechanic. Tractor might just be given to him if he's serious about giving it attention. G-Grandfathers best friend would be pleased. Loved helping young guys out.

You can't save them all. It's a shame. Save the ones you can.
 
Old F-14,

Hoping you can find an old tractor to restore... I'm betting there are still some out there, somewhere.

BUT that old guy might turn out to be a real winner!
You know, "He who dies with the most toys... wins". (Sorry, couldn't resist. GRIN)
 
Only there once, but I liked him a lot.He was very helpful and humble. I drove out there from Utica one afternoon, probably about 1982. I was in my 20's.

I like your story about him cutting the axles off an F14. I was struggling with one big bolt getting the part I needed, and asked if he had a torch. "I'm not much of a torch man," he apologized, and handed the torch to me.

Now I know that he knew perfectly well how to use a torch. I can think of several reasons why he did what he did, and all of them make me smile.

Zeke B.
 
> Buy cheap,sell high trade when you get some 'boot' sounds like a good business plan.Why trade things of equal value without compensation? Might as well keep what you got.

Buy low, sell high is good business. Buy low and never sell is not. Human nature is to do the latter.
 
(quoted from post at 21:23:24 01/07/20) There's another side to this story.

In my past I have sold items to others only to find out they 'flipped' it and made as much or more off of it as I did. There is the possibility that he probably wanted it to go to somebody who would definately fix it up rather than resell it or part it out on Ebay. So he priced it so you probably wouldn't make much off it if you sold it.

That may be true, but it's also true that once you sell it, it belongs to someone else, who is free to do whatever he wishes with it. That's life.
 
Maybe but a lot of times people don't sell because they have way more in something than its worth,so as long as they don't actually sell it they don't have face up to what a loser its been for them.Then there is the other side if I have almost no money invested in something I can afford to hold it for a long time at no cost to me.Like parts tractors I sell enough off of it to get my original purchase price back,I can hold it at no cost.
 
Old F-14 I'm also a younger gent in my 30's in the middle MI area. I was fortunate enough to inherit a Ford 860 that I'm going to get this weekend so that I can get it going from its multi year slumber. If you want to talk tractors let me know.

Docmirror. I'm an A&amp;P and I understand what your saying. The worst part about that is that gent probably has no idea how unsafe his plane really is with all the things that are wrong with it. It's probably had flybye annuals for more than the last few years.
 
There's no accounting for how an old person's mind works. Back in the 1980's, (when the economy was not that good), I came in contact with an old lady (probably also in her 80's) who had a number of old 2 cylinder John Deeres tucked away in a shed. I asked her if any of them might be for sale. Of course, they were not. Her reasoning was that when the next great Depression came along, her sons would be able to just fill those tractors with gas, fire them up, and go back to making their living off the land the way they used to, and thereby they would survive!

I have no idea what ever became of the tractors.
 

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