Electric Question

[Ted in NE-OH]

I see adds for a plug-in device that is supposed to lower your electric bill. It may be a capacitor that could correct your
power factor. Says " could lower your electric bill by 90%. Obviously not likely. How about some discussion>

 

[Mule Meat]

So you buy a device that uses electricity and it lowers your power bill.. OKay.

 

[dr sportster]

Got a link so we could look at it?

 

[dr sportster]

A google search leads to You tube videos with snake oil salesmen.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 10:36:53 03/27/20) A google search leads to You tube videos with snake oil salesmen.

aybe a couple of hacksaw blades to replace electric meter?

 

[Steve@Advance]

If such a devise exists, it would obviously be something that alters the meters ability to measure consumption.

That would be theft of services.

If the electric company suddenly saw a 90% reduction of an electric bill, they just might be suspicious.

In reality, it's right up there with the mystery 100MPG carburetor!

Another way to look at it, it does exactly what the seller intends...

Takes money out of your pocket and puts it in theirs!

 

[David G]

Hog wash.

 

[Russ from MN]

Sounds like snake oil to me!

 

[guido]

Hello Ted,

It reminds be of an ad on a local free paper. Send me the money, and I'll tell you how I make my money. I don't recall the exact amount, Once he got the money, the reply was: This is how I mame my money!
Sounds legal to me......He He

Guido.

 

[SkipperII]

Reminds me of all the mileage extenders, cow magnets, flow reducers, other pure BS. And trying to explain to people (including my father) that only thing being improved, was the bank account of the seller!!

 

[Married2Allis]

Reminds me of another gimmick device from years ago - a 'fuel atomizer' to supposedly increase your gas mileage. The JC Whitney catalogs sold these and other rip-off devices like gimmick spark plugs.

 

[gregww]

My dad use to tell the story of gas saving devices for a car. This gadget saves 10%. This gadget saves 20%. So on and so on. He figures if he used them all, he would have to stop every few miles and remove gas from his tank.

 

[MarkB_MI]

Even if it did correct your power factor, it would be unlikely to reduce your electric bill. Your meter measures kilowatt-hours, not kVA-hours.

 

[4520BW]

They do make a device to lower your electrical bill. Its called a light switch but no one in my house remembers how to turn them off.

 

[dr sportster]

and only would correct power factor ahead of the caps not after them.

 

[John T]

Ted, from an old retired power distribution engineer it looks like baloney and fake news to me lol. As said "If it sounds to good to be true it probably is" lol

HOWEVER to your post "It may be a capacitor that could correct your power factor. Says " could lower your electric bill by 90%. Obviously not likely. How about some discussion"

Correcting the Power Factor can, based on energy use and on how the utility formulates its cost, reduce energy charges SIGNIFICANTLY. In a huge Naval industrial complex where I was an engineer we were penalized and charged big time for having a lousy power factor due in part to all our huge inductive motor and HVAC loads. We engineered calculated and starting adding power factor correction capacitors which paid for themselves in short time. Its all about real power versus apparent power but the bottom line is maintaining a unity power factor in which capacitive and inductive loads balance out (to appear like a pure resistive load) can save money in some circumstances.

I don't envision any minor power factor correction in a typical low energy residence ever saving you much of anything, even though in an industrial complex (based on energy charges and penalties) it certainly can.

Being an electrical question you may expect all sorts of answers of course, but its your money and your choice to invest in any such product even if it appears suspicious to this old engineer.

Best wishes, God Bless and protect the USA in these difficult times

John T

 

[dr sportster]

John T Hi, As I remember from school the caps only corrected the PF up to the caps themselves meaning only correction in the incoming line not any correction on the load side.

 

[John T]

dr, the way I look at it is this. Say you had a load/motor with an obvious primarily inductive component (IE current lags voltage) but if in parallel you add a capacitor (current leads voltage) the two can balance each other out yielding a unity power factor in which current and voltage are back in phase, no lead no lag, like a pure resistive load.

Sooooooooooo that "correction" would appear if you stick a meter on the wires right where the motor and parallel capacitors connect, would you consider that the "incoming line" or the load ?????????

At our base we had a ton of inductive loads and the utility monitors sensed the current they supplied to us lagged the voltage big time IE we had a lousy power factor. AS I BEST RECALL NO WARRANTY we added capacitors at the buildings service entrances after which voltage and current were closer in phase. Maybe consider capacitors on the LOAD side (where motors are) makes the INCOMING LINE SUPPLY side appear its feeding into a resistive unity power factor load since the current and voltage are in phase????

AS I BEST RECALL NO WARRANTY LOL Power factor is the cosine of the angle between current and voltage and if there's no lead or no lag (capacitance and inductance are balanced) voltage and current are in phase and the cosine of zero degrees is ONE.

I guess regardless if you consider the correction at the load or the incoming line so long as the utility measures (but that's the line right??) the voltage and current are in phase they were happy and didn't penalize and over charge us any longer !!!!!!!!!

Thanks dr, I LOVE this techy sparky chat with you electricians and other engineers, its NERDY but I love it lol even if the non sparkies are bored to tears lol

DISCLAIMER this is based on oldddddddddd memory regarding power factor it may be wrong as rain and if so I apologize MY BAD It wouldn't be the first nor last time I've been wrong lol I'm only human so cut me some slack. Im sure Google would bring up a gazillion references but I don't take the time to do any research I'm too old n lazy for that lol my hard drive is fulllllll

John T God Bless and protect the USA in these difficult times

 

[Hoenes]

My wife bought a device that you plug into an outlet, that reduces EMF's in the
house. Talk about snake oil !

 

[Dusty MI]

About 40 years ago I was running a short order/repair service van. My boss had me install a Power Factor correction capacitor at a rather small place. I don't remember what was being done there.

Dusty

 

[David G]

John,

Most all residential and commercial customers buy KW, so it is the responsibility of the power company to provide (and pay for) the VARS. Industrial customers generally buy KVA, so yes VAR's have to be paid for. In that event capacitors do save the company money. I rarely see the small customers pay for capacitors, as they do not want to make the investment.

Loads are moving away for lagging now that things are moving to VFD's.

 

[David G]

It depends on which side of the meter the capacitors are on who it benefits.

 

[Charles in Aus.]

More than 55 years ago our elderly neighbour fell for one of these scams . She sent two Australian pounds to a post office box number for a device '' Guaranteed to cut her electricity bills in half ''.
The poor old dear received a small pair of child's scissors in return :shock:
To her credit she laughed it off after the initial upset and gave the scissors to my young sister , she still has them .

There is a ' Snake oil ' salesman in a Bugs Bunny cartoon , his classic line '' FREE , for only five dollars !''

 

[4520BW]

John, did you work at Crane?

 

[MarkB_MI]

> and only would correct power factor ahead of the caps not after them.

Right, what matters to the power company is the apparent power factor at the meter. So if correction is applied anywhere after the meter, the utility sees unity power factor but that doesn't change the power factor of the individual loads. Why this even matters is that the lower the power factor the greater the current and voltage drop in the circuit to the load. Which is why many big welders have PF correction capacitors: It's not to improve the PF presented to the utility, it's to allow the welder to operate on a smaller circuit than it would otherwise require.

 

[sotxbill]

The Inductive smelter furnace at mci made a buzzing sound that could be heard for 5 miles in any direction. They had a whole building of caps that were used to correct power factor as it keep the current in phase, and that reduced their power bill hugely. That allowed the power company to run one less generator. This plant was Guadalupe Valley EC's largest customer.

 

[John T]

Yes I was an electrical power engineer at NWSC Public Works Dept at Crane

John T

 

[John T]

David, I don't recall the exact figures, but for sure power factor correction saved us HUGE DOLLARS and agree a small customer (subject to how utility charges) wouldn't realize much of any savings.

John T

 

[John T PS]

Wow Ted, you got more info then you expected perhaps , but hey you asked for a discussion and any electrical or legal question always draws the most response, most everyone (lay or professional) has an opinion on those two topics. There's no finer group of gents then here who all try to help each other yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

FYI for the non electricians engineers and sparkies out there, here is a basic formula and info regarding Power Factor, True Power and Apparent Power.

1) Power Factor = True Power (KW) divided by Apparent Power (KVA)

2) In a pure resistive circuit (No inductance or capacitance) the Power factor is Unity one. Voltage and Current are in phase.

3) If the load (say a motor) is inductive, current lags the voltage

4) If the load is a capacitor, current leads the voltage.

NOTE that's how and why if you add capacitance to an inductive load (Power Factor Correction) the two balance out making it appear as a resistive unity one power factor.

5) If the utility has to have the capacity to deliver what's required by a user having a poor power factor they can (subject to how and for what they bill) charge or penalize for that (they did us big time) but that's more for huge industrial users NOT small homeowners.

Again its been yearssssssss since I worked with this type stuff (power distribution engineering) on a daily basis, have slept since then and am rusty, so no warranty but I believe this remains true today.

Soooooooooo Ted, BOTTOM LINE even if power factor correction can reduce costs for an industry, again I don't envision that happening for a homeowner with any such magic device like you asked about.

That's my story n Ima stickin to it lol

Best wishes yall, keep safe and God Bless America, keep her safe strong and great in these difficult times

John T Back home (locked down) again in Indiana

 

[David G]

It does save if the customer is buying KVA, but makes no difference if buying KW.

 

[Indiana Ken]

Yes indeed, In this area the letter usually contains an invite to a local restaurant for a nice meal. I have gotten at least two invites in the past year. These meals remind me as a kid....my mom would help out at the local rescue mission. The hobos would have to sit through a sermon before they could eat.

 

[buickanddeere]

Residential and small business electrical metering does not calculate and record the power factor .
Note the phrase "up to".
On occasion with a motor being supplied low voltage at the end of a long supply cable . Adding PF correction capacitors up to unity will raise the voltage at the motor . It will also reduce VD in the supply cable by the capacitors supplying the motor s reactive current . Instead of that reactive current being carried by the supply cable .

 

[David G]

Exactly.

 

[John T]

Indeed, The utility considered our Power Factor and KVA so we saved big time by correction.. yayyyyyy lol

John T

 

[4520BW]

Sounds interesting. I use to drive by there a lot on my way to collage.

 

[buickanddeere]

(quoted from post at 15:43:13 03/28/20)
Residential and small business electrical metering does not calculate and record the power factor .
Note the phrase "up to".
On occasion with a motor being supplied low voltage at the end of a long supply cable . Adding PF correction capacitors up to unity will raise the voltage at the motor . It will also reduce VD in the supply cable by the capacitors supplying the motor s reactive current . Instead of that reactive current being carried by the supply cable .

To be clear . That is adding the extra run capacitors at the distant motor . Not at the motor contractor/overloads .

 

[Loren NC]

Any chance you knew Clarence Walls at Crane?