Electrical accessories

[Rich'sToys]

That's because that is how computers work. The board in the tail gate receives and sends information to the computer, but before that can happen, the computer needs to know the id and address of the board in the new tailgate and that the old one is no longer there. So you have to go into the computer and remove the old id and address from the previous tailgate's board and assign the new one. Essentially, the computer needs to know what this new board on its network is and where it's at before it can work with it. Once that is established, it knows who and what the information is coming from and then it gets inserted into the various programs on the computer, allowing it function properly. Wishing it worked differently, that you could just put in the tailgate and it would work automatically, is kind of like hitching a plow to a tractor with the draw pin, but wanting the hydraulics to work without hooking up the hoses. You have to do that extra step for things to work.

It still just seems strange that an electric tailgate should need a computer to make it work. Power windows just have a switch to make them go up and down. One would think that this could be set up the same way, if you have to have one.
I can still open and close mine by hand, thank you very much!

 

[gblj]

Beats the heck out of me. Royse bought a new pickup a few years ago. He was showing it to me after he got it. He wanted the tow package. That didn't just mean a brake controller and a plug in, there were about a hundred accessories that he didn't want and weren't necessary that he had to take to get it. It was all in the one size fits all tow package.

Speaking of Royse, when I first got on here he was on here giving good advice, if I remember right he used to rebuild carbarators, that was quite a few years ago, how is he doing?

 

[Ray,IN]

Buy a work truck instead of the popular models. They come with manual crank windows, no radio, manual tailgate, no rear bumper, etc.

 

[MarkB_MI]

A lot of options are "bundled" so if you want one or two you have to take the whole package. This smooths production. When was the last time anyone went to a dealer to order a car or truck. I haven't heard of anyone doing it for a long time.

I do.

 

[MarkB_MI]

It still just seems strange that an electric tailgate should need a computer to make it work. Power windows just have a switch to make them go up and down. One would think that this could be set up the same way, if you have to have one.
I can still open and close mine by hand, thank you very much!

When was the last time you worked on power windows? Why do you think the window goes all the way down and stops with a single press of the switch, but when you hit the switch a second time the window will stop? What about the ability on some cars to open the windows remotely? That's all done by computers. The days of "simple" switches are over. (I put simple in quotes, because those electromechanical systems were anything but simple.)

 

[olddavid]

In the original thread I referenced, the guy replaced his electric tailgate and it still don't work, and they're telling him it needs to be programmed into the computer before it will work. To me that's just overkill! Why can't you just unplug the old one, plug in the new one, and be done with it?
Makes no sense to me.

No it doesn't. Even the one handed tailgate latches eventually turn into a pain. I had to replace the one on my '08 Ranger at less than 100K. My '61 Chevy half ton had the chain and bar tail gate. A little more unhandy (maybe) but I never had a problem with it.

Edit: Computer interfacing tail lights, tailgates and etc. They save a few feet of wire doing it that way. I fail to see how that can be cheaper to make but it sure isn't cheaper to repair.

 

[moresmoke]

Those things work for the wealthy and flashy and folk that trade every 3 years.

Others that want a vehicle to drive, and last a long time, and affordable to buy and maintain, are being left behind.

Progress.

Paul

The first group is the target customer of the manufacturer and most of the dealers. That is who they make money off of.

The second group, they would prefer you bought used.

Reality is, the customer that can buy a new vehicle without a second thought is the same customer that wants the bells and whistles. And most customers will take a used vehicle with options over a new one without for a comparable price.

I used to work for an equipment manufacturer that offered both cloth and leather seats. The take rate on cloth was 1 unit out of 4000 for North America. The only reason to even offer the cloth was the take rate was higher on machines built for other parts of the world.

 

[buickanddeere]

I do.

My Grand National and Mrs B&D's last two pickups were ordered to spec.

 

[NDIHC]

When was the last time you worked on power windows? Why do you think the window goes all the way down and stops with a single press of the switch, but when you hit the switch a second time the window will stop? What about the ability on some cars to open the windows remotely? That's all done by computers. The days of "simple" switches are over. (I put simple in quotes, because those electromechanical systems were anything but simple.)

Exactly. People want auto up and auto down windows. Well, if you have auto up there needs to be a safety factor built in so little Johnny doesn't hit the auto up and get his head caught in the window. It needs anti pinch logic to reverse the window when it hits an obstruction. That is achieved with a window module (computer) that senses the increased amperage draw when the window hits something. Now, normally that module is reset by holding the window switch in the up position after the window is up. The memory power seat on the other hand has to have a reset done with a scan tool to learn position sensors and limit switches. People want little conveniences and that's part of having them.

 

[GChief]

Exactly. People want auto up and auto down windows. Well, if you have auto up there needs to be a safety factor built in so little Johnny doesn't hit the auto up and get his head caught in the window. It needs anti pinch logic to reverse the window when it hits an obstruction. That is achieved with a window module (computer) that senses the increased amperage draw when the window hits something. Now, normally that module is reset by holding the window switch in the up position after the window is up. The memory power seat on the other hand has to have a reset done with a scan tool to learn position sensors and limit switches. People want little conveniences and that's part of having them.

Don't explain too much! Its entertaining reading the post of those that don't know how "technology" works belly achin' bout it

Complaining instead of understanding is a common old fart trait

 

[olddavid]

Exactly. People want auto up and auto down windows. Well, if you have auto up there needs to be a safety factor built in so little Johnny doesn't hit the auto up and get his head caught in the window. It needs anti pinch logic to reverse the window when it hits an obstruction. That is achieved with a window module (computer) that senses the increased amperage draw when the window hits something. Now, normally that module is reset by holding the window switch in the up position after the window is up. The memory power seat on the other hand has to have a reset done with a scan tool to learn position sensors and limit switches. People want little conveniences and that's part of having them.

I don't want them. A simple electronic circuit could detect an overload and kick out the power window motor. I get it if the computer is already there for another function. There would need to be some sort of sensor or sensing circuit to do it with a computer. Interfacing a computer with the real world isn't simple. It requires external electronics, switches, and sensors to do it. My experience in the electronic field (38 years including many computer-controlled systems) tells me this: "Reliability is inversely proportional to complexity."

 

[GChief]

I don't want them.

And the fact of the matter is, you are part of an extremely tiny percentage of the consumer base. It does not make fiscal sense to offer somehitng on one really wants, well no one except for a handful of people on a forum that the main subject is old crap.

 

[MarkB_MI]

I don't want them. A simple electronic circuit could detect an overload and kick out the power window motor.

The thing to realize is that's not how it's done anymore. And it hasn't been done that way for at least a couple of decades. If a manufacturer wants to add new functionality to a vehicle, it's going to be done using the common architecture: Computerized control modules (e.g. body control module, transmission control module, engine control module), remote control modules (e.g. liftgate control module, door control module, trailer brake control module) and a common data bus (CANBUS). In 2026, no engineer is going to suggest using a solution that isn't built on this common architecture. You can argue the merits of using discrete electronic and electromechanical devices all day, but vehicle manufacturers aren't going back to that approach. Digital multiplexed controls are not just the future, they have been the standard for many years.

 

[olddavid]

The thing to realize is that's not how it's done anymore. And it hasn't been done that way for at least a couple of decades. If a manufacturer wants to add new functionality to a vehicle, it's going to be done using the common architecture: Computerized control modules (e.g. body control module, transmission control module, engine control module), remote control modules (e.g. liftgate control module, door control module, trailer brake control module) and a common data bus (CANBUS). In 2026, no engineer is going to suggest using a solution that isn't built on this common architecture. You can argue the merits of using discrete electronic and electromechanical devices all day, but vehicle manufacturers aren't going back to that approach. Digital multiplexed controls are not just the future, they have been the standard for many years.

I realize it's not likely to change. I'm thinking 15, 20 years down the road how much of that stuff is going to keep working? It may be great for a while, and I guess if one trades cars every 2 or 3 years it won't be a problem but not everyone can do that. In my opinion, they've gone too far down this road (no pun intended) in areas where there were simpler solutions. For instance: multiplexing taillights has been mentioned. Just because something can be done doesn't mean it should be.

 

[stoughtonfarmboy]

Except the inter-dependency of systems can result in unexpected results. Like my Tundra and it's new 4WD problem. The selector that drives the 2/4 and hi/low shift is stuck. Little motor that drives the shift mechanical shift. Seems simple right? Except that also causes the anti-lock brakes, stability control and traction control to become inop.

I never realized how good the traction control is(was) until it's no longer working!

I'm sure that is because those functions require input from that selector in order to operate.

And it can't be turned off for the same reason. Inter-dependency. One would think that a simple on-off would be available

Our grandson is a diesel mechanic. Interdependence makes diagnosis and repair a challenge. Codes are sometimes just the starting point.

I limit my mechanic work to dirtbike, lawnmower and an older tractor.

Ken

 

[GChief]

I realize it's not likely to change. I'm thinking 15, 20 years down the road how much of that stuff is going to keep working? It may be great for a while, and I guess if one trades cars every 2 or 3 years it won't be a problem but not everyone can do that. In my opinion, they've gone too far down this road (no pun intended) in areas where there were simpler solutions. For instance: multiplexing taillights has been mentioned. Just because something can be done doesn't mean it should be.

Your wants may sound good but you're not considering outdated parts availability. I do Gov oversite and deck plate technical guidance for a program that updates systems onboard US Navy ships. The majority of the upgrades we do are because you can't get the spare parts or components, electrical or mechanical, to repair these systems. Many of the controls we are replacing are only 15 - 20 yrs old and the manufactures do not support the tech they developed 30 yrs ago, and why should they. Manufacturers are not going to support outdated technology, that is just a fact of life no matter how much us old farts pontificate/opine or wring our hands about it on internet forums. They are also going to keep advancing the tech they are using, that has always been and always will be a thing.

I don't get the people that do not understand that the toothpaste is not going back in the tube.

 

[MarkB_MI]

I realize it's not likely to change. I'm thinking 15, 20 years down the road how much of that stuff is going to keep working? It may be great for a while, and I guess if one trades cars every 2 or 3 years it won't be a problem but not everyone can do that. In my opinion, they've gone too far down this road (no pun intended) in areas where there were simpler solutions. For instance: multiplexing taillights has been mentioned. Just because something can be done doesn't mean it should be.

This is an issue. OEMs generally try to provide spare parts for 10 years after end of production. Once any vehicle passes the ten year mark, spares can be difficult to find. On the other hand, folks tend to put a lot more miles on their vehicles than they used to. At 15K miles a year, that 15 year-old vehicle has over 200K on it and is about ready for the scrap yard.

Yes, multiplexed taillights are largely unnecessary, but technology isn't really why those overpriced taillights are so expensive. They're ludicrously expensive because they're only available from the dealer. If the Chinese could reverse-engineer them, they would be a lot cheaper.

 

[olddavid]

"Your old road is rapidly agin'. Please get out of the new one if you can't lend a hand for the times they are a changin'." Dylan was right so I guess I'll get out. This example is a bit simplistic, but I rest my case.

 

[GChief]

Old folks complaining about change and technological advances... "same as it ever was" , always has, and always will be a thing.

Part of that is also from a song

 

[NDIHC]

CAN communication has been around for decades on cars. I don't see that changing anytime soon. With CAN there are multiple modules (computers) communicating back and forth. And there are multiple CAN lines. ACAN, BCAN, CCAN, LIN etc. They all talk to each other through direct communication or through a gateway that connects one CAN line to another. Vehicle systems are integrated to each other. If a module sends out a message for a specific data input, the modules that receive that message either use it or ignore it, depending if it is pertinent to the receiving module. Diagnosing CAN can be a challenge at times. Sometimes it is straight forward. You measure voltages, usually hi CAN at about 2.6 volts and low CAN at about 2.4 volts. When you find the place where the voltages go haywire you've found your failed module or compromised wiring or other component. Sometimes it's a bad gateway. Sometimes it's a bad ground. It takes understanding of the sysyem and an ability to read a schematic to determine where the fault is. Just becaust there's a fault code saying PDL module CAN error doesn't mean you replace the PDL module. It meand diagnosr the PDL circuit. So many people think that a code tells us what the problem is, when it only points us in the direction of the CAUSE of the problem. I had one car a while back with multiple CAN errors. After disconnecting system after system and checking voltages, the CAN system came back online when I disconnected the engine control harness. Then while disconnecting different components of the control harness I found that the a/c transducer was broken, shutting down CAN communications. At that point I was told "oh yeah, the car was in an accident before this all happened". That information may or may not have helped in the diagnosis, I don't know. But it just goes to show that something many would consider insignificant can be the cause of a lot of problems. And if you know how to diagnose it, it isn't some magical thing that is put there to stymie anyone. It's just how the industry is moving and has been moving for many years. I remember people cussing GM's HEI distributors because they didn't understand how a pickup coil and ignition module worked. "Give me a dagonne set of points! They are foolproof"! Yes and you had to replace them every 20,000 miles. Can you imagine how many miles of wiring are saved by multiplexing sysyems between modules on modern vehicles? If you had to run separate wires for every circuit on a modern vehicle the wiring harness would be enormous. And the $3,000 harness for whichever sysyem in the vehicle would be at least double that. If there was enough market for a simple vehicle with minimal electronics, that vehicle would be manufactured today and selling like hotcakes! Tha matket just isn't there. Sorry for the long, rambling rant, just what I know from day to day experience in the industry.