Electrical accessories

[ss55]

Be good If they would just make a reliable plain jane car, but the government has mandated a lot of this stuff. The big profit are in the accessories like power everything and electronic keys that cost $500 to replace if you lose it.

Manufacturers moved away from simple ecobox sedans because sales very low. Now-a-days new vehicle buyers want the fancy options. Today's new vehicles easily last well beyond 20 years and 200,000 miles. The buyers who actually want economy will shop for used vehicles and drive them another 10 years and 100,000 miles.

 

[buickanddeere]

Exactly. People want auto up and auto down windows. Well, if you have auto up there needs to be a safety factor built in so little Johnny doesn't hit the auto up and get his head caught in the window. It needs anti pinch logic to reverse the window when it hits an obstruction. That is achieved with a window module (computer) that senses the increased amperage draw when the window hits something. Now, normally that module is reset by holding the window switch in the up position after the window is up. The memory power seat on the other hand has to have a reset done with a scan tool to learn position sensors and limit switches. People want little conveniences and that's part of having them.

Memory Seat is awesome . Mrs B&D jams the seat up under the steering wheel into the dash. Even though she is two inches taller than I am.

 

[NDIHC]

CAN communication has been around for decades on cars. I don't see that changing anytime soon. With CAN there are multiple modules (computers) communicating back and forth. And there are multiple CAN lines. ACAN, BCAN, CCAN, LIN etc. They all talk to each other through direct communication or through a gateway that connects one CAN line to another. Vehicle systems are integrated to each other. If a module sends out a message for a specific data input, the modules that receive that message either use it or ignore it, depending if it is pertinent to the receiving module. Diagnosing CAN can be a challenge at times. Sometimes it is straight forward. You measure voltages, usually hi CAN at about 2.6 volts and low CAN at about 2.4 volts. When you find the place where the voltages go haywire you've found your failed module or compromised wiring or other component. Sometimes it's a bad gateway. Sometimes it's a bad ground. It takes understanding of the sysyem and an ability to read a schematic to determine where the fault is. Just becaust there's a fault code saying PDL module CAN error doesn't mean you replace the PDL module. It meand diagnosr the PDL circuit. So many people think that a code tells us what the problem is, when it only points us in the direction of the CAUSE of the problem. I had one car a while back with multiple CAN errors. After disconnecting system after system and checking voltages, the CAN system came back online when I disconnected the engine control harness. Then while disconnecting different components of the control harness I found that the a/c transducer was broken, shutting down CAN communications. At that point I was told "oh yeah, the car was in an accident before this all happened". That information may or may not have helped in the diagnosis, I don't know. But it just goes to show that something many would consider insignificant can be the cause of a lot of problems. And if you know how to diagnose it, it isn't some magical thing that is put there to stymie anyone. It's just how the industry is moving and has been moving for many years. I remember people cussing GM's HEI distributors because they didn't understand how a pickup coil and ignition module worked. "Give me a dagonne set of points! They are foolproof"! Yes and you had to replace them every 20,000 miles. Can you imagine how many miles of wiring are saved by multiplexing sysyems between modules on modern vehicles? If you had to run separate wires for every circuit on a modern vehicle the wiring harness would be enormous. And the $3,000 harness for whichever sysyem in the vehicle would be at least double that. If there was enough market for a simple vehicle with minimal electronics, that vehicle would be manufactured today and selling like hotcakes! Tha matket just isn't there. Sorry for the long, rambling rant, just what I know from day to day experience in the industry.

Ok, I think I just proved myself wrong. There IS a market for vehicles with minimal electronics! That market is the side by sides that many are glad to pay 30 grand for!

 

[ss55]

The thread about the pickup tailgate that won't work got me to thinking:

Call me old fashioned, but why do they have to put all this electrical crap on modern vehicles? Same with hatchbacks and sliding doors on vans that open and close by themselves, etc., etc. Just more things that can go wrong! We've been opening and closing our own doors and tailgates for years. If a person can't do that, maybe they shouldn't be driving a vehicle!

Didn't want to hijack that thread, so started my own.

It is fun to bash manufacturers in other industries... but is it ironic that the majority of the US public only want simple healthy food and meat without any harmful pesticides, without any hormones, and without any GMOs and our agriculture industry simply refuses to grow those foods because they don't fit our modern farming methods?

 

[rustred]

thats the way technology works. right from the old hand crank. someone has a brain wave and comes up with electric. been happening right from the horses to steam engines to gas tractors to diesel tractors and its just one big competition, to see how little manual labor man can do, by throwing electric this and that. now just sit and watch a computer take over your steering wheel, but you still need to sit in the cab or vehicle. now the push is on with these electric spy vehicles from china watching what we are doing. and the race is on with china to get on the moon. just never ending. often i think geez these 100 year old people have see a lot of changes in their life. probably an electric go ment is coming also to eliminate more jobs yet. dont need humans just google everything. well actually there is robots now being made to replace us. if it dont look like a human and dont talk like a human dont walk like a human its not a human. watch out !

 

[GChief]

It is fun to bash manufacturers in other industries... but is it ironic that the majority of the US public only want simple healthy food and meat without any harmful pesticides, without any hormones, and without any GMOs and our agriculture industry simply refuses to grow those foods because they don't fit our modern farming methods?

There are some that do not care and eat it anyway. Some even think there is nothing wrong with the way we fed the masses here. I just had this conversation with cousins while in Ohio last week.

You might be surprised to learn they have all kinds of health issues that are directly linked to the normal Merican' diet, but "that is a bunch of BS" according to them.

 

[NDIHC]

I don't want them. A simple electronic circuit could detect an overload and kick out the power window motor. I get it if the computer is already there for another function. There would need to be some sort of sensor or sensing circuit to do it with a computer. Interfacing a computer with the real world isn't simple. It requires external electronics, switches, and sensors to do it. My experience in the electronic field (38 years including many computer-controlled systems) tells me this: "Reliability is inversely proportional to complexity."

The sensing circuit is 1 wire between the power window motor and the power window module. That wire tells the module how many amps the motor is drawing. The module not only stops the window motor from raising the window in the case of an obstruction, but the built in logic also lowers the window. A simple circuit breaker or intelligent power switch wouldn't have that capability without a computer (module) to reverse the window. If little Johnny's neck is getting crushed by the window, you don't want it to simply stop, you want it to roll back down to release little Johnny from the window. While some things seem overly complicated, there is usually a reason for that complexity. Say little Johnny sticks hes head out the window and hits the auto up function. Do you want it to stop because it hit an obstruction, or do you want it to roll back down, potentially saving Johnny from being choked to death? If the manufacturer merely stopped the window, they'd likely be sued because they didn't provide a mechanism for releasing the person. Sorry if I go against the grain on this topic, but real world experience tells me that some of this technology is necessary to save people from themselves.

 

[MarkB_MI]

"Your old road is rapidly agin'. Please get out of the new one if you can't lend a hand for the times they are a changin'." Dylan was right so I guess I'll get out. This example is a bit simplistic, but I rest my case. cView attachment 141519

Yes, David, the right hand side of your schematic pretty accurately shows the headlight circuit for a 1960s auto. Add a floor-mounted dimmer switch and you're there. No electronics, no relays, probably no circuit breaker or fuse. Just switches and wire.

Of course, as soon as you start adding whistles and bells it gets complicated fast. Automatic headlights were probably the first enhancement. No problem; just another device in the dashboard and a bit more wiring. How about a warning chime if you leave the lights on after shutting off the engine? Add a relay or two and a noisemaker, it's just a few bucks more. Daytime running lights? Have the lights stay on for 30 seconds after you leave the car? Have them flash when you lock or unlock using the remote? Now you're talking a lot complexity and expense, plus a not-entirely-insignificant amount of weight. Or you just bite the digital bullet and all those functions basically come for free. Plus any new whistles and bells you want to add later on.

 

[cjunrau]

A

Yes, David, the right hand side of your schematic pretty accurately shows the headlight circuit for a 1960s auto. Add a floor-mounted dimmer switch and you're there. No electronics, no relays, probably no circuit breaker or fuse. Just switches and wire.

Of course, as soon as you start adding whistles and bells it gets complicated fast. Automatic headlights were probably the first enhancement. No problem; just another device in the dashboard and a bit more wiring. How about a warning chime if you leave the lights on after shutting off the engine? Add a relay or two and a noisemaker, it's just a few bucks more. Daytime running lights? Have the lights stay on for 30 seconds after you leave the car? Have them flash when you lock or unlock using the remote? Now you're talking a lot complexity and expense, plus a not-entirely-insignificant amount of weight. Or you just bite the digital bullet and all those functions basically come for free. Plus any new whistles and bells you want to add later on.

All of those new things you add Auto this and that. We could all live without, and I would rather. But everyone wants it and one step more than there buddy has. It is called pride and bragging right.

 

[GChief]

It is called pride and bragging right.

Are you sure its that for every single person that wants those features? Our is it just your jaded perception of the world?

Serious question as many of your post just seem like you are angry at the world in general.

 

[NDIHC]

As mentioned earlier a few times, you CAN get base models without all of the accessories. They are still going to have ABS/ESC/TCS, air bags and the other federally mandated equipment. But they won't have all of the optional equipment.

And used I bet you can get a great deal on them, if you can find one. Resale on a base model is pretty cheap.

 

[buickanddeere]

A minimum pro work truck, long box , double cab, 4WD, 5.3,L , heated mirrors and tow package Comes with power windows, auto braking, AC, tinted windows, cruise, two information screens, etc

Destination Freight Charge
$2,700.00
Air Conditioning Charge
$100.00
Dealer Fees
$699.00
OMVIC
$22.00
Environmental Handling Fee - Tires†
$22.50
MSRP Total Vehicle Price
$65,882.50
Net Price
$65,882.50†
Key Attributes
Engine
5.3L EcoTec3 V8
Transmission
10-speed automatic
Max Trailering (LBS)†
9,300
Max Payload (LBS)†
2,181.00
Horsepower @ RPM
355 @ 5600
Torque @ RPM (LB-FT)
383 @ 4100

Double Cab, Standard Bed Pro 4WD Standard Equipment​

 

[buickanddeere]

A minimum pro work truck, long box , double cab, 4WD, 5.3,L , heated mirrors and tow package Comes with power windows, auto braking, AC, tinted windows

Destination Freight Charge
$2,700.00
Air Conditioning Charge
$100.00
Dealer Fees
$699.00
OMVIC
$22.00
Environmental Handling Fee - Tires†
$22.50
MSRP Total Vehicle Price
$65,882.50
Net Price
$65,882.50†
Key Attributes
Engine
5.3L EcoTec3 V8
Transmission
10-speed automatic
Max Trailering (LBS)†
9,300
Max Payload (LBS)†
2,181.00
Horsepower @ RPM
355 @ 5600
Torque @ RPM (LB-FT)
383 @ 4100

Double Cab, Standard Bed Pro 4WD Standard Equipment​

The most basic 2WD, short box, regular cab ,still remote start, 7" colour info screen, blue tooth, power windows, power locks, cruise, AC, LED lights, automatic braking, backup camera. Zero options.


Destination Freight Charge
$2,700.00
Air Conditioning Charge
$100.00
Dealer Fees
$699.00
OMVIC
$22.00
Environmental Handling Fee - Tires†
$22.50
MSRP Total Vehicle Price
$53,042.50
Net Price
$53,042.50†
Key Attributes
Engine
2.7L TurboMax™
Transmission
8-speed automatic
Max Trailering (LBS)†
9,000
Max Payload (LBS)†
2,410.00
Horsepower @ RPM
310 @ 5600
Torque @ RPM (LB-FT)
430 @ 3000

Regular Cab, Standard Bed Pro 2WD Standard Equipment​

Highlights

• GMC Pro Safety
• Forward Collision Alert1
• Following Distance Indicator1
• Front Pedestrian Braking1
• Lane Keep Assist with Lane Departure Warning1
• Automatic Emergency Braking1
• Buckle to Drive1
• IntelliBeam1
• 
  
• Remote Keyless Entry
• Allows you to lock and unlock doors of the vehicle with the key fob
• Driver's door or all doors unlock at the touch of a button
• Includes panic alarm button
• Includes remote locking tailgate
• May require additional optional equipment
• GMC Infotainment System with colour touchscreen
• Multi-touch display and AM/FM stereo
• 7" diagonal colour touchscreen for customizing and managing entertainment and vehicle feature settings1 on Sierra 1SA
• Bluetooth®1 audio streaming for 2 active devices
• Apple CarPlay™ capability for compatible phones2
• Android Auto™ capability for compatible phones3

1 Go to Owner's Centre to find out which phones are compatible with the vehicle
2 Vehicle user interface is a product of Apple and its terms and privacy statements apply. Requires compatible iPhone and data plan rates apply. Apple CarPlay is a trademark of Apple Inc. Siri, iPhone and Apple Music are trademarks for Apple Inc, registered in the U.S. and other countries.
3 Vehicle user interface is a product of Google and its terms and privacy statements apply. Requires the Android Auto app on Google Play and an Android compatible smartphone running Android™ 5.0 or higher. Data plan rates apply. Android Auto is a trademark of Google LLC.
Package

• GMC Pro Safety
• Forward Collision Alert1
• Following Distance Indicator1
• Front Pedestrian Braking1
• Lane Keep Assist with Lane Departure Warning1
• Automatic Emergency Braking1
• Buckle to Drive1
• IntelliBeam1

 

[NDIHC]

This is available locally, brand new, on the lot, $40,000...and it is 4X4. They don't have a 2 wheel drive on the lot to compare. Plus there's another $3,000 off if you qualify for certain incentives. So it can be had for $37,000.
They have 10 on the lot ranging from $40k to about $48k.

 

[paul]

It is fun to bash manufacturers in other industries... but is it ironic that the majority of the US public only want simple healthy food and meat without any harmful pesticides, without any hormones, and without any GMOs and our agriculture industry simply refuses to grow those foods because they don't fit our modern farming methods?

One Needs to get in your $75k pickup with electric step, auto seat, electronic controls power steering auto shift auto brakes electric windows climate control and drive your fat body down to the health spa and get you some excersize!

Can’t imagine why we are in this condition.

Paul

 

[stoughtonfarmboy]

Memory Seat is awesome . Mrs B&D jams the seat up under the steering wheel into the dash. Even though she is two inches taller than I am.

50+ years ago I delivered propane to farms and rural residences. The boss decided drivers should not each have "his" own truck. So, the routes and trucks were assigned to different driver each day. The trucks had an adjustable seat. Basically, you cranked a lever to adjust the spring tension. Still friends with one of the other drivers. We had a running joke about those seats. We are same height. He weighed about 200 lbs. I weighed about 130 lbs. He would get out, next day I would climb in and my head was bent over looking at my belly button while I cranked and cranked until the seat lowered enough for me to look out the windshield. Vice versa for him. I got out. Next day he collapsed the seat to the floor while he cranked and cranked until the seat was high enough for him to look out the windows.

A fancy seat position 1 and seat position 2 would have been an improvement.

Ken

 

[buickanddeere]

This is available locally, brand new, on the lot, $40,000...and it is 4X4. They don't have a 2 wheel drive on the lot to compare. Plus there's another $3,000 off if you qualify for certain incentives. So it can be had for $37,000.
They have 10 on the lot ranging from $40k to about $48k.

US $$$ vs Canadian $$$? In any case, no manual crank windows anymore .