I have 50 & 52 8N neither have a bal-resistor. They have never given me starting issues over the years that a tune-up didnt fix. Side mount,6V sys can coil. all spring the 50 either fires right up or will cranks and cranks and no go, filed points it took off, worked ran out of gas fill her up no start. It sat for 3 days and I tried to start her she just cranked. 4th day she fired right up. We did the start no start crank dance. Gave her a complete tune-up ,started right up we worked,shut her off. Next day we did the crank dance. I fiddled around and did the spark drill,I now have intermiten coilwire spark and same on plugs. I also have a intermiten orange spark between the starter housing and the block. My ignition is a toggle switch not a key, test light says I have juice to the points. Points had a pit filed them no go. Give me your thoughts and Thanks LB
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Bruce (VA)
Well-known Member
OK, lets see.......
You have non-OEM parts on the tractor w/ probably old wiring, you're filing the points which takes off the metallic coating, you don't know what the ignition voltage is, and most importantly, you still do not know why it won't start, but you want to spend $135 for EI? What this going to get you is a tractor w/ EI that won't start instead of a tractor w/ points that won't start.
Until the tractor starts & runs correctly on points, you'd be making a big mistake to convert it to EI.
See tips 40, 41 & 42. Chances are very good that a complete re-wire of the tractor (at a cost of $50 or so) will solve the problem.
If you still want to install EI, the debate comes up here w/ such frequency that you would benefit from doing an archives search on the topic so that you can make an informed decision based upon factual information. Generally speaking, you will find a few facts, a lot of opinion, & some BS (“ my EI system doesn't have any transistors... “) . You will also find factual information that isn’t the least bit relevant to installing EI on a 23 hp, 60 year old tractor. (“the automotive industry went to EI 35 years ago”)
Once you parse out the BS & ill-tempered rants, there are specific factual pros & cons for keeping a points system and for using EI on an N. What it really comes down to however, is your use of the tractor & your ability (or interest) to perform maintenance on the tractor. Points require annual maintenance & replacement usually every 4 or 5 years. The EI unit itself does not have annual maintenance requirements.
I’ll offer my rationale for keeping the points in my N’s; if our experience & situation are similar, then perhaps EI isn’t the answer for you either.
Knowledge. I was probably 13 or 14 when I learned how to change a set of points; that was in 1962 or 63. Every car I owned up until 1976 had points. I can fix them or change them & I have the tools to do it; I understand how they work & understand the need to use quality parts. But, while I understand how EI works, I do not have the tools or knowledge to fix it when it breaks. When it stops, it stops. You aren't going to get it going again w/ a finger nail file, screwdriver & a dime to set the gap. Even as frustrating as points can be at times, worst case scenario is replace them for $16 and continue work. Not so w/ that EI unless you have some hi-tech testing equipment & the skills to use it. Don’t use the reliability of the EI on your car or truck as a benchmark for longevity on your N. Your car’s ignition system was designed for the EI & uses far different materials at much closer tolerances than your 60 year old tractor’s ignition system, designed for points. There are many specific & valid reasons that vehicles today use EI & most of those reasons are not applicable to a 23 hp, 2400 rpm 60 year old tractor engine. If you think an EI on these N’s is foolproof, then do that archive search I suggested. You will see many examples of folks who are not pleased to spend $135 for something that will fail & can't be fixed by the average-Joe tractor owner. And, I'm also amazed at some of the EI owners around here who will constantly tell us how infallible EI is every time the debate comes up but are strangely silent when a unit malfunctions.
6v System. All 4 of my N’s are 6v & I haven’t had a reason to convert them to 12v. And, because of the precise voltage requirements of EI (it won’t work below 5.2v) EI on a 6v system is just a problem waiting to happen.
Maintenance. I keep my 2 front distributor & 2 side distributor N’s well maintained. Contrary to what some folks will tell you, EI will not cure a bad rotor or cap, worn plug wires, a bad ballast resistor, an ill-fitting coil or any other typical ignition problems found on these old tractors. The EI is only going to be as good as the system it’s installed on. All you get by putting an EI on an N w/ these problems is a poorly running N w/ an EI instead of points.
Consequence of error. If I hook up the battery cables backward on my points system nothing happens to them. Reverse polarity on an EI and it fries. If I leave the key on & the points are closed, I melt the points & probably the coil. That’s a $40 mistake. If you leave the key on w/ EI, that’s a $150 mistake.
Cost. I can replace a lot of points for the cost of EI. And, in my case, I’d need to convert the tractor to 12v, so that’s a total cost of around $235.
EI does not give you higher spark voltage, eliminate all maintenance on your ignition system or give enough of a horsepower boost to cause the tractor to do wheelies. It replaces the points. That’s it. It will not correct or overcome other problems in the ignition system. While it may give you more HP or improve fuel economy, both would be so insignificant as to be hardly noticeable on a 23 hp engine. If you can’t set points or don’t care to do it, or you don’t want to spend the 30 minutes or so a year to check the gap & lube the cam, then you will be happy w/ EI. And, the EI unit itself will be maintenance free. (but the rest of the ignition system won’t) You will spend probably $235 for an EI kit & 12v conversion. If you install them correctly you will have an easy starting tractor for a long time. And, the 12 volt conversion & EI will have just about nothing to do w/ the good performance. What will make the real difference is the new wiring, cables, clean grounds & new battery.
The key advantage to EI is that you do not need to gap & lube the points every year & replace them every 4 or 5 years or. If you perform annual maintenance on the points & change them every 4 years or so using quality parts, you will see no difference whatsoever between a points ignition system & EI on an N.
The key disadvantages to EI on an N are initial cost, nearly impossible for the average N owner to repair, will not work w/ low battery voltage, & easily damaged beyond repair by polarity reversal & other common mistakes.
Bottom line……….this is the question you need to answer: “If tens of thousands of other N’s operate just fine on 6v and points, why can’t mine?”
50 Tips
You have non-OEM parts on the tractor w/ probably old wiring, you're filing the points which takes off the metallic coating, you don't know what the ignition voltage is, and most importantly, you still do not know why it won't start, but you want to spend $135 for EI? What this going to get you is a tractor w/ EI that won't start instead of a tractor w/ points that won't start.
Until the tractor starts & runs correctly on points, you'd be making a big mistake to convert it to EI.
See tips 40, 41 & 42. Chances are very good that a complete re-wire of the tractor (at a cost of $50 or so) will solve the problem.
If you still want to install EI, the debate comes up here w/ such frequency that you would benefit from doing an archives search on the topic so that you can make an informed decision based upon factual information. Generally speaking, you will find a few facts, a lot of opinion, & some BS (“ my EI system doesn't have any transistors... “) . You will also find factual information that isn’t the least bit relevant to installing EI on a 23 hp, 60 year old tractor. (“the automotive industry went to EI 35 years ago”)
Once you parse out the BS & ill-tempered rants, there are specific factual pros & cons for keeping a points system and for using EI on an N. What it really comes down to however, is your use of the tractor & your ability (or interest) to perform maintenance on the tractor. Points require annual maintenance & replacement usually every 4 or 5 years. The EI unit itself does not have annual maintenance requirements.
I’ll offer my rationale for keeping the points in my N’s; if our experience & situation are similar, then perhaps EI isn’t the answer for you either.
Knowledge. I was probably 13 or 14 when I learned how to change a set of points; that was in 1962 or 63. Every car I owned up until 1976 had points. I can fix them or change them & I have the tools to do it; I understand how they work & understand the need to use quality parts. But, while I understand how EI works, I do not have the tools or knowledge to fix it when it breaks. When it stops, it stops. You aren't going to get it going again w/ a finger nail file, screwdriver & a dime to set the gap. Even as frustrating as points can be at times, worst case scenario is replace them for $16 and continue work. Not so w/ that EI unless you have some hi-tech testing equipment & the skills to use it. Don’t use the reliability of the EI on your car or truck as a benchmark for longevity on your N. Your car’s ignition system was designed for the EI & uses far different materials at much closer tolerances than your 60 year old tractor’s ignition system, designed for points. There are many specific & valid reasons that vehicles today use EI & most of those reasons are not applicable to a 23 hp, 2400 rpm 60 year old tractor engine. If you think an EI on these N’s is foolproof, then do that archive search I suggested. You will see many examples of folks who are not pleased to spend $135 for something that will fail & can't be fixed by the average-Joe tractor owner. And, I'm also amazed at some of the EI owners around here who will constantly tell us how infallible EI is every time the debate comes up but are strangely silent when a unit malfunctions.
6v System. All 4 of my N’s are 6v & I haven’t had a reason to convert them to 12v. And, because of the precise voltage requirements of EI (it won’t work below 5.2v) EI on a 6v system is just a problem waiting to happen.
Maintenance. I keep my 2 front distributor & 2 side distributor N’s well maintained. Contrary to what some folks will tell you, EI will not cure a bad rotor or cap, worn plug wires, a bad ballast resistor, an ill-fitting coil or any other typical ignition problems found on these old tractors. The EI is only going to be as good as the system it’s installed on. All you get by putting an EI on an N w/ these problems is a poorly running N w/ an EI instead of points.
Consequence of error. If I hook up the battery cables backward on my points system nothing happens to them. Reverse polarity on an EI and it fries. If I leave the key on & the points are closed, I melt the points & probably the coil. That’s a $40 mistake. If you leave the key on w/ EI, that’s a $150 mistake.
Cost. I can replace a lot of points for the cost of EI. And, in my case, I’d need to convert the tractor to 12v, so that’s a total cost of around $235.
EI does not give you higher spark voltage, eliminate all maintenance on your ignition system or give enough of a horsepower boost to cause the tractor to do wheelies. It replaces the points. That’s it. It will not correct or overcome other problems in the ignition system. While it may give you more HP or improve fuel economy, both would be so insignificant as to be hardly noticeable on a 23 hp engine. If you can’t set points or don’t care to do it, or you don’t want to spend the 30 minutes or so a year to check the gap & lube the cam, then you will be happy w/ EI. And, the EI unit itself will be maintenance free. (but the rest of the ignition system won’t) You will spend probably $235 for an EI kit & 12v conversion. If you install them correctly you will have an easy starting tractor for a long time. And, the 12 volt conversion & EI will have just about nothing to do w/ the good performance. What will make the real difference is the new wiring, cables, clean grounds & new battery.
The key advantage to EI is that you do not need to gap & lube the points every year & replace them every 4 or 5 years or. If you perform annual maintenance on the points & change them every 4 years or so using quality parts, you will see no difference whatsoever between a points ignition system & EI on an N.
The key disadvantages to EI on an N are initial cost, nearly impossible for the average N owner to repair, will not work w/ low battery voltage, & easily damaged beyond repair by polarity reversal & other common mistakes.
Bottom line……….this is the question you need to answer: “If tens of thousands of other N’s operate just fine on 6v and points, why can’t mine?”
50 Tips
I am one of the happy users of EI on an 8N (frontmount), but in your case, Bruce is probably right. Sounds like a rewiring job will likely solve your starting problem. And anyway, it would be a good first step if you choose to go with EI in the future.
BTW, I too grew up working with points ignitions and have a spare stock distributor on the shelf as backup. But the second, third and fourth best performance improvements made to my 8N so far is rewiring, adding EI, and converting the alternator from 1 wire to 3. (I should note that a worn out breaker plate was replaced with the EI unit.)
Oh, the best improvement made so far was repairing a loose control valve lever on the hydraulic pump.
BTW, I too grew up working with points ignitions and have a spare stock distributor on the shelf as backup. But the second, third and fourth best performance improvements made to my 8N so far is rewiring, adding EI, and converting the alternator from 1 wire to 3. (I should note that a worn out breaker plate was replaced with the EI unit.)
Oh, the best improvement made so far was repairing a loose control valve lever on the hydraulic pump.
Fix the problem first! Throwing an IE on it isn't going to fix mess up wiring like Bruce says.
LOL Bruce, yer always arguing against IE and 12 volt. Being an older (not old guy) who cut his teeth on point systems......When I'm doing my 8N engine rebuild later this year I'm rewiring, converting to 12 volt for simple compatability reasons (everything else on the farm is 12 volt) and getting IE. I use my N all the time with over 50 hours seat time in the last 6 weeks in between the rian.....Just hate that front mount dizzy. Not one of Fords better ideas!
Rick
Bruce (VA)
Well-known Member
Bruce (VA)
Well-known Member
There are plenty of folks around here who are perfectly happy w/ 12v & EI. If I had a chance to buy an otherwise good running N w/ 12v & EI, I sure wouldn't retro fit it w/ points & 6v! But, as long as mine run fine on 6v & points, I'll leave well enough alone.
(quoted from post at 08:49:20 06/13/11) Do you turn the Gas OFF Every time you shut the tractor off?
My '50 will flood if left for more than 20 minuts with the gas on.
Other wise it starts first try every time...unless I forget to turn the gas back on.
????? I left mine on the other day for 2 days with no problems.....fix it!
Rick
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