Electrical Question

[miangus]

My son purchased a house a couple of years ago, during a period when I had some health issues. Actually, when I told my son I was too tired to attend the inspection he sent me to emergency where they discovered a clot in both lungs. Now to the issue, recently he had a high electric bill, which turned out to be the electric heater a guest was running, turns out 1.350 times 720 times $0.20 = $194.00. But just to check for phantom loads I went over and did an amperage draw check on all the circuits. Here is where the trouble started, first it was a Challenger panel, second all the circuits with 14-gauge wire were on 20 Amp breakers and a mysterious circuit going to the barn was made up of a pair of 14-gauge Romex cables on a 25-amp two pole breaker. The house was built in about 1984 and it was typical 1984 residential practice with just the heavily loaded circuits on 12-gauge wire and I expect the 14-gauge circuits were fused at 15 Amps. At some point a later owner needed to add a two-pole breaker for air conditioning and another for a pump and converted the 15 Amp circuits to tandem breakers at 20 Amp. I removed the 25 Amp two pole and disconnected the circuits. After I get a look at how they get to the barn and what exists there. I expect to connect to single 15 Amp breakers. The advice I need from the experts here is all of the breakers except for a lone HOMI are Siemens QP including what appear to be the originals including the snap in main. The plan is to replace the 20 Amp tandems with Siemens QP 15 Amp tandems, ditch the lone HOMI and replace it with a Siemens single pole QP. My only issue is my research shows the proper replacement is an EATON CL series in the Challenger Panel but does say some Challenger panels used the Siemens QP. I know the Challenger Panels had issues, and the long-term plan is to replace the panel. I have inspected all the contact blades, and they show no corrosion or signs of overheating. So, Siemen QP or EATON CL?

 

[Stan Coryell]

What breaker does the panel say it accepts? You need to cross the breakers listed for that panel, not the breakers that are in it.

Edit:
Correct for a Challenger "C" (or Thomas & Betts) is an Eaton/ Cutler- Hammer CL. (Type BR was incorrect. I Believe CH called it a BR Type breaker.)

Public Knowledge Base

knowledgehub.eaton.com

 

[buickanddeere]

My son purchased a house a couple of years ago, during a period when I had some health issues. Actually, when I told my son I was too tired to attend the inspection he sent me to emergency where they discovered a clot in both lungs. Now to the issue, recently he had a high electric bill, which turned out to be the electric heater a guest was running, turns out 1.350 times 720 times $0.20 = $194.00. But just to check for phantom loads I went over and did an amperage draw check on all the circuits. Here is where the trouble started, first it was a Challenger panel, second all the circuits with 14-gauge wire were on 20 Amp breakers and a mysterious circuit going to the barn was made up of a pair of 14-gauge Romex cables on a 25-amp two pole breaker. The house was built in about 1984 and it was typical 1984 residential practice with just the heavily loaded circuits on 12-gauge wire and I expect the 14-gauge circuits were fused at 15 Amps. At some point a later owner needed to add a two-pole breaker for air conditioning and another for a pump and converted the 15 Amp circuits to tandem breakers at 20 Amp. I removed the 25 Amp two pole and disconnected the circuits. After I get a look at how they get to the barn and what exists there. I expect to connect to single 15 Amp breakers. The advice I need from the experts here is all of the breakers except for a lone HOMI are Siemens QP including what appear to be the originals including the snap in main. The plan is to replace the 20 Amp tandems with Siemens QP 15 Amp tandems, ditch the lone HOMI and replace it with a Siemens single pole QP. My only issue is my research shows the proper replacement is an EATON CL series in the Challenger Panel but does say some Challenger panels used the Siemens QP. I know the Challenger Panels had issues, and the long-term plan is to replace the panel. I have inspected all the contact blades, and they show no corrosion or signs of overheating. So, Siemen QP or EATON CL?

What is/are the mystery load(s) on the mystery cable, supplied from mystery breakers and routed to the mystery barn ? how many wires in the cable routed out to the barn ?

 

[miangus]

Apparently, there is a 240-volt electric heater in the barn, my son said when he tried to use it the breaker tripped. I believe the low setting is 5,600 watts. Possibly the reason for the 25 Amp breaker.

 

[miangus]

There appears to be two separate 14 2 with ground cables headed to the barn with each hot wire connected to the two pole 25 Amp breaker. Stan the EATON table you referenced suggests an EATON BR, other EATON information suggests using an EATON CH neither of which come close to physically fitting. From it's age I believe it to be a series B Challenger.

 

[Ericp351]

Go square D. At this point, you need all new 15 amp breakers anyway. I,d use real wires to barns. Doubt you will rewire home to 12 ga. Is it safe to assume this is in a UP., Wisconsin, or Minnesota type area?

 

[soupkid]

It would likely be cheaper to replace the panel now instead of replacing numerous breakers, they can be costly.
I fully loaded panel is likely cheaper than buying a bunch of breakers your likely going to toss when you do replace the panel.

 

[buickanddeere]

There appears to be two separate 14 2 with ground cables headed to the barn with each hot wire connected to the two pole 25 Amp breaker. Stan the EATON table you referenced suggests an EATON BR, other EATON information suggests using an EATON CH neither of which come close to physically fitting. From it's age I believe it to be a series B Challenger.

Have to wonder how many other items around the place have been Jimmy Rigged ?

 

[phil25]

There appears to be two separate 14 2 with ground cables headed to the barn with each hot wire connected to the two pole 25 Amp breaker. Stan the EATON table you referenced suggests an EATON BR, other EATON information suggests using an EATON CH neither of which come close to physically fitting. From it's age I believe it to be a series B Challenger.

If and hopefully never there is a reason that your insurance company is involved....who do you think is going to be blamed... because breakers did not match the panel brand???? go with the new panel/matching breakers, save the worry/time and expense down the road.

 

[buickanddeere]

My son purchased a house a couple of years ago, during a period when I had some health issues. Actually, when I told my son I was too tired to attend the inspection he sent me to emergency where they discovered a clot in both lungs. Now to the issue, recently he had a high electric bill, which turned out to be the electric heater a guest was running, turns out 1.350 times 720 times $0.20 = $194.00. But just to check for phantom loads I went over and did an amperage draw check on all the circuits. Here is where the trouble started, first it was a Challenger panel, second all the circuits with 14-gauge wire were on 20 Amp breakers and a mysterious circuit going to the barn was made up of a pair of 14-gauge Romex cables on a 25-amp two pole breaker. The house was built in about 1984 and it was typical 1984 residential practice with just the heavily loaded circuits on 12-gauge wire and I expect the 14-gauge circuits were fused at 15 Amps. At some point a later owner needed to add a two-pole breaker for air conditioning and another for a pump and converted the 15 Amp circuits to tandem breakers at 20 Amp. I removed the 25 Amp two pole and disconnected the circuits. After I get a look at how they get to the barn and what exists there. I expect to connect to single 15 Amp breakers. The advice I need from the experts here is all of the breakers except for a lone HOMI are Siemens QP including what appear to be the originals including the snap in main. The plan is to replace the 20 Amp tandems with Siemens QP 15 Amp tandems, ditch the lone HOMI and replace it with a Siemens single pole QP. My only issue is my research shows the proper replacement is an EATON CL series in the Challenger Panel but does say some Challenger panels used the Siemens QP. I know the Challenger Panels had issues, and the long-term plan is to replace the panel. I have inspected all the contact blades, and they show no corrosion or signs of overheating. So, Siemen QP or EATON CL?

Two separate #14/2 cables supplying 240 to the "barn" is dodgy, should have been a 14/3 . Wondering if the cables are underground rated or are routed the full length in conduit ? The breakers have to be tied together and no larger than 20amp. That would operate up to 3800W of load. Then there is a grounding issue . If the circuit is supplied from more than one breaker , there is a ground system required at the remote structure . What is supplying the air-conditioning now ? There are yard panels with an interloocked generator transfer switch mechanism. I can not find exactly what is intended but this is sort of close . https://mobileimages.lowes.com/prod...95-a0e2-a90fdab52c63/02727752.jpg?size=pdhism I feel you concern regarding pulmonary embolisms . Had an occurrence a few days after getting out of the hospital after a 10 day bout of a "c" disease. A dose of clot buster at the hospital restored flow. Then a few weeks ago and also a few days. Both times after increasing the degree of exercise while recovering from a broken back. I could not " get my breath" , felt weak and anxious . Each time, chewed and swallowed a 500mg aspirin to obtain momentary relief. Appear to have broke some clots loose from somewhere.

 

[buickanddeere]

Two separate #14/2 cables supplying 240 to the "barn" is dodgy, should have been a 14/3 . Wondering if the cables are underground rated or are routed the full length in conduit ? The breakers have to be tied together and no larger than 20amp. That would operate up to 3800W of load. Then there is a grounding issue . If the circuit is supplied from more than one breaker , there is a ground system required at the remote structure . What is supplying the air-conditioning now ? There are yard panels with an interloocked generator transfer switch mechanism. I can not find exactly what is intended but this is sort of close . https://mobileimages.lowes.com/prod...95-a0e2-a90fdab52c63/02727752.jpg?size=pdhism I feel you concern regarding pulmonary embolisms . Had an occurrence a few days after getting out of the hospital after a 10 day bout of a "c" disease. A dose of clot buster at the hospital restored flow. Then a few weeks ago and also a few days. Both times after increasing the degree of exercise while recovering from a broken back. I could not " get my breath" , felt weak and anxious . Each time, chewed and swallowed a 500mg aspirin to obtain momentary relief. Appear to have broke some clots loose from somewhere.

I still can not find the outdoor meterbase transfer switch that is feed through and has 8-12 breaker spaces. Page 49 is sort of close

https://api.reliancecontrols.com/media/DAFD6437178010536126/DAFL6902119740201409.pdf 82-POLE PANEL/LINKTTH - OutdoorMMETALPOWDERCOATED STEELModel#16/32CIRCUITMax. Utility Input AmpsTRANSFER PANELSNEMA 3RRatedMax. Gen. Input AmpsGen. Power Inlet IncludedTTH2003DR20030NoWatt Meters IncludedNoUPC8-15181-01535-0TTH2005DR20050NoNo8-15181-01538-1TTH2006DR20060NoNo8-15181-01541-1TTH2010DRTTH2012DR200200Dimensions: 33"h x 14.38"w x 3.94"d100125NoNoNoNo8-15181-01543-58-15181-01545-9TTH Series Knockout PatternsA.E.F.G.C.D.B.H.Indoor TTH SeriesA. 4 K.O.s for .25" ConduitB. 2 K.O.s for .38", .5", .75", 1", 1.25" ConduitC. 10 K.O.s for .5", .75", 1" ConduitD. 52 K.O.s for .5" ConduitE. 12 K.O.s for .38", .5", .75", ConduitF. 10 K.O.s for 1", 1.25", 2", 2.5" ConduitG. 3 K.O.s for 1.75" Ground Bar MountingH. Mounting Hole (4 places)TTH Series Wiring DiagramF.A.B.C.D. E.E.H.Outdoor TTH SeriesA. HS Type Hub Opening (Max. 2.5" Conduit)B. 1 K.O.s for 1", 1.25", 1.5", 2", 2.5" ConduitC. 4 K.O.s for 5", .75", 1" ConduitD. 12 K.O.s for .5", .75" ConduitE. 1 K.O. .25"F. 3 K.O.s for .5" ConduitG. 3 K.O.s for 1.5", 2", 2.5" ConduitH. Embossed .5" Mounting Hole (4 places)ABNAbove models are UL listed for the following branch circuit breakers: Siemens Type QP, QT, QPH, HQP, QPH, QPHF, QFP, QE, QEH; Square D Series HOM 100A Max. Murry Type MP; C-H/Westinghouse Series BD, BR, BQ, GFC 100A Max.2-Pole Panel/Link Transfer PanelsRelianceControls.com

 

[Ericp351]

Also..... 20 amp breakers were to get 20 amp outlets. About $5.oo. 15 amp about 89 cents in bulk. Still smells like Minn., or Wisc. Home uninsurable Most states, north of Masson Dix.! Practical, free, sugestion. Have son,s old lady loose her hair dryer if kids or quality dogs in home. Good luck!

 

[kencombs]

15a outlets are fine and per code on 20a circuits. As long as there are multiple outlets

 

[buickanddeere]

Also..... 20 amp breakers were to get 20 amp outlets. About $5.oo. 15 amp about 89 cents in bulk. Still smells like Minn., or Wisc. Home uninsurable Most states, north of Masson Dix.! Practical, free, sugestion. Have son,s old lady loose her hair dryer if kids or quality dogs in home. Good luck!

I have seen too many of the cheap receptacles fail. Why not purchase something reliable and safer ?

 

[Ericp351]

Especially in a barn or shop. Hospitals figured it out. Hospital grade is a 20a, plus a dot and a buck or 2. Easy way for a cellphone type to save 3 bucks on the way to harbor freight I guess. As said.. . Lest we forget, the bitterness of poor Quality remains after the Sweetness of low price is forgotten. Would be amusing to see how they wired an electric water heater in this house. Good pad for the x wife. Kids, not so much.

 

[miangus]

Thanks all, I am going to replace the 20 Amp tandems fusing the 14-gauge wire with Siemens QP style breakers. This will make it safe with the least modifications. I believe the original breakers were all Siemens QPs although it is possible that early in the panel's life original GTI breakers were replaced with the Siemens QP style. The house was inspected when purchased so I do not want to change a lot of things, just make it safe. The siemens are getting a tight grip on the blade in the panel. Thanks again to the commenters and yes using true 20 Amp receptacles in a shop or kitchen is worth the extra expense, I had to learn that the hard way in my shop.

 

[kencombs]

Thing that is often overlooked is the fact that within a brand and specific product line, 15 and 20 amp are identical inside, only the blade postion/alignment differs. And 15s are rated for 20a pass through. Same materials and quality.

I didn't think so until actually tearing some apart.

Buy good brands, and and pay no attention to amperage as an indicator of quality.

 

[wp6529]

Recent move to a ~1978 house.

The first thing I did was replace all of the switches and receptacles on the second floor (bedrooms and bath) with new spec grade, new nylon plates and draft gaskets, correcting a couple grounding issues along the way and noting that all wire was 12ga. I got about halfway through the first floor before too much furniture was moved in to do it efficiently. Still have a bit to go there.

The main panel (in the 2nd floor MBR closet) was an old GE 200A 40 space with a mish-mash of various brands of breakers. I replaced it with a proper Square D QO 200A 42 space panel with all new breakers. A couple circuits that had looked like Edison circuits on 2 pole breakers turned out to be entirely separate and are now on proper single pole 20A breakers. The few circuits found on 15A breakers in the old panel are now on 20A as I found no evidence of 14ga wire anywhere in any switch or receptacle box, in the attic, etc. Circuits for the heat pump and air handler with electric backup heat are also now on correctly sized breakers as well.

All circuits were mapped out before the panel replacement and plotted on CAD prints of the floorplan as well as a spreadsheet and those were updated as I installed the new panel and reconnected circuits. Prints are taped up next to the panel for quick reference. I also shot with a thermal camera, both inspecting the original panel as well as checking and rechecking the new panel to make sure no loose connections ,etc.

All DIY so probably $750 in materials including the generator interlock kit, 125A breaker for that, 100A breaker for a new shop feed, etc. Just go through and redo everything correctly and sleep well. If you have experience and a helper all of that should take a weekend.

ETA: Simplybreakers . com has much better prices than the big box stores, especially on the larger breakers like the 125A 2 pole QO which was about half of the box box price.