Engine oil

[Johns Schmincke]

Not trying to stir up any mud but I am curious. The following quote is what got me curious.

And, BTW, switching to detergent oil is not going to loosen up the sludge in the engine. While choosing oil brands & weights are sometimes subjective, the use of detergent vs non-detergent shouldn’t be debatable given the oil available today. Plenty of studies disprove the “stir up the sludge” myths; here is one:

http://www.nordicgroup.us/oil.htm#Detergent%20Oil

I didnt look at that link but I did have a 56 chev with a 235 that had non detergent oil most of its 48000 mile life. Dad gave me the car and within a month after thinking I was doing it a favor by giving it a oil change...it was burning a quart of oil a week just driving back & forth to school. Cop pulled me over telling me my exhaust system was faulty and gave me a warning ticket. Within 6 months, I had to drop a 283 in it ( only thing available for $25.00 at the time ) or start walking again.
Now I have this 47N and when I pull the oil filler tube out of the block and look down into the engine front, I see exactly what was in my chev, so I am using non detergent oil in it. Can I ween it into a detergent slowly to take advantage of the multi vis weights while it cleans itself gradually?. The rings are what I am concerned about. Have not done a compression test but when it was running before the tank/fuel line episode, it seemed pretty strong.
Your thoughts?
John

 

[Dell (WA)]

John.......do you know that in 1939, Ford recommended 30wt DETERGENT oil for the N-Tractor. (40wt for extremely HOT weather) Detergent oil was EXPENSIVE back then. It is difficult to find non-detergent oil today.

I strongly advise against 10w-30 wt oil as it is really just 10wt oil with additives that make the oil act like 30wt when HOT. I use 20wt-50 oil. It is 20wt when cold, much better than 10wt, eh?

Biggest problem with N-oil is it is 6-qts and takes almost 1-hr to fully warm up and evaporate engine combustion by-products.

Think about how you use yer tractor, hot and heavy field work ...or... just a quickie??? Ford recommends changing oil and filter every fall. Most tractor users that is about 100-hrs ...or... 1000-miles. .......the oily Dell

 

[souNdguy]

what makes you think non detergent oil hasn't already been use din it in the last 60 years?

what's the difference in running full detergent oil in it.. or doing it in stages. end result is it will have detergent oil in it.

as the post you quote says.. detergent vs non detergent should not even be on the table. save the non detergent oil for things like air compressor sumps and lawnmowers with no oil filters where you don't want gunk suspended in the oil.

if you are staying up at night worrying about this, go hit walmart and buy enough oil for 2-3 oil changes, and 5-6 oil filters, and a couple quarts of atf fluid. . also grab a quart of diesel fuel... kerosene would work..

change the oil and filter, and substitute in a quart of atf for 1 quart of engine oil.. run her and change the filter after a good hard hour of running.. then let her get another couple hours into the oil , add in a good pint of that diesel, crank back up, and run for just under a minute to get the diesel circulated..then drain and do another change and oil filter, and again with the atf.. and again with the filter change. this time expand the run time to a good day of running hard each.... again, befor ehte last change.. add in that other pint of diesel, allow to circulate, then drain .. etc.

finally do your last refill, no atf, no diesel and the final oil filter, and call it good.

I reccomend 15w40 oil for her unless you are in a real cold climate, or unless she is real worn..

ps.. I've only done this on machines that were seized.. or sat for decades.. or already had milkshakes in them.. or tar like oil.. or were under water...

soundguy

 

[Johns Schmincke]

Well, the guy I bought it from highly recommended using non detergent..his words were we dont know what was used in it before, better safe than sorry. I know what was used in my dads 56 chev cause he bought it new and was strictly non detergent. I tore that 235 apart to look inside. It was caked. Took a putty knife to shave that stuff out of there just to recognize anything. I havent had the pan off this N but looking down the tube, its the same thing. Saving the non stuff for lawn mowers is fine but what did the guy do before me? I wouldnt mind doing a change out every say 3 weeks after sloshing a cleaner around inside be it diesel, kerosene or atf. If I saw goo coming out every time I pulled the plug, that would inspire me to keep on with it till I saw clean oil. I cant run it hard here, not enough room. I only have a 1/2 acre here and got it just to do some light chores and snow removal with hopes of putting in a garden once the pool is removed. It had worked a farm here in VA originally. I doubt it would even run enough to open a thermostat for what I need it for. Thats sad in itself but it is a back saver.
I had thought about substituting just a quart to keep the ratio light. Or like you mention, a pint of diesel. Ill give that a try next go-round. No, I dont lay awake at night over this but I do think about it often. I like this old tractor.
Thanks soundguy...sounds like a plan.
John

 

[John Schmincke]

No I didnt Dell. That was 12 years before me. I used 20w50 in all my cars out in Tucson due to the heat. Id run a car gently for about 7 miles till I got to I10 heading for Phoenix than cruise around 80 for about 120 miles. That seemed to work pretty good and Im sure you got a taste of it heading through Mexico. Nice country out there.
Yea, all my motoring time around here might be 10 minutes max at a time. Would have been better out west. I had 40 acres in St David and a acre in Vail. This tractor would have been very handy there. Here its just 1/2 acre, clear some trees, reposition the grounds and move snow what little we get here except for the 40+ inches we got 2 winters ago. Happens about every 10 years the locals say. Shoot, 100 hours might take me 58 years at this location. Ill just tune in to the color of the oil as I go and change it when it starts getting dark I guess...that with like soudguy suggested, a quart substituted to start breaking the goo down. Knowing me though, this winter Ill plow a bunch of driveways for a cup of coffee. Got a few older folks around me that shouldnt be out there shoveling.
John
Thanks Dell

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 03:12:05 06/03/11) Well, the guy I bought it from highly recommended using non detergent..his words were we dont know what was used in it before, better safe than sorry. I know what was used in my dads 56 chev cause he bought it new and was strictly non detergent. I tore that 235 apart to look inside. It was caked. Took a putty knife to shave that stuff out of there just to recognize anything. I havent had the pan off this N but looking down the tube, its the same thing. Saving the non stuff for lawn mowers is fine but what did the guy do before me? I wouldnt mind doing a change out every say 3 weeks after sloshing a cleaner around inside be it diesel, kerosene or atf. If I saw goo coming out every time I pulled the plug, that would inspire me to keep on with it till I saw clean oil. I cant run it hard here, not enough room. I only have a 1/2 acre here and got it just to do some light chores and snow removal with hopes of putting in a garden once the pool is removed. It had worked a farm here in VA originally. I doubt it would even run enough to open a thermostat for what I need it for. Thats sad in itself but it is a back saver.
I had thought about substituting just a quart to keep the ratio light. Or like you mention, a pint of diesel. Ill give that a try next go-round. No, I dont lay awake at night over this but I do think about it often. I like this old tractor.
Thanks soundguy...sounds like a plan.
John

The reason the 56 Chevy was caked with sludge inside is simple - using non-detergent oil in it. People have a major mis-conception of what detergents in motor oil actually do. The primary function of detergents in the oil is to keep that particulate crap in suspension so it will get pumped into the filter and get removed. With non-detergent oil it settles out of the oil before it reraches the filter clogging the oil passages and accumulating on just about every surface - e.g forms those caked on sludge deposits. And any motor that is already sludged up inside is in trouble - it's got a bad case of advanced automotive arthersclerosis. Switching to detergent oil isn't going to dissolve those deposits and clean it up.

TOH

 

[Bruce (VA)]

" I didnt look at that link"

Why?

 

[souNdguy]

still think yu are bing a tad over cautious.

the 'not running hot enough to open the thermostat' is more of a detriment than the oil detergent issue.

if you have to, when done using it for the chores, let it set there and run above idle a bit so it at leasts gets water circulating.

I also wouldn't run the diesel in it long term, but only right before the oil change. atf on the other hand.. I'd mix that in the entire time..

soundguy

 

[Johns Schmincke]

After I experienced dissolving the gunk between the rings of that 6 cyl with just one oil change, I saw first hand what good detergent oil would do. When I took that engine out, I pulled the pan just to look and was pretty impressed with the sludge that came out and the buildup inside the block. After it started smoking, dad thought to mention he only used non detergent...woops. Now, what I dont know is maybe a ring broke soon after I got it. The time it took for a light to go from red to green is what several minutes at idle? Leave the green light it would lay down a thick smoke screen. I saw one person turn their wipers on behind me. One quart a week to a half tank gas.

 

[Johns Schmincke]

still think yu are bing a tad over cautious.

Well, your right. Its 64 years old, strong still, runs quiet enough. Guess I would just like to help it without doing any damage. I havnt totally cleaned the outside yet, doing a little at a time but would like to know the oil passages are open.

Doesnt hurt anything to just let it sit and run another 10-15 minutes a little over idle without a load? I agree with you about the thermostat. Smallest task I ever did with my other tractor was take it down to the end of the back yard, get some wood and back again. At least that was a good half hour.

I figured the diesel was more of a flush and right before a change.
John

 

[John Schmincke]

TOH, Thanks for that info.

Okay, so let me ask you this, if you have a sludged up motor, how would you handle it?...just out of curiousity that is.

I know theres a lot of people out there with these and other machines that depend on them working daily. I had one I used to cut grass with, had a woods 59 mower. If that thing went down, I was back to a 22 inch lawn mower that would take me a week to do what that woods could do in a little over a hour...so I was very concerned with what was in that crankcase.

This N is really semi retired...me too but Id like it to be the last tractor. Its already survived the original owner.

 

[Bruce (VA)]

" Ill just tune in to the color of the oil as I go and change it when it starts getting dark..."

No, not a good idea.

If you don't change it by the hours, then change it annually. Otherwise, it's going to get moisture build-up from lack of use.
50 Tips

 

[Bruce (VA)]

I've learned a lot over the years; some of it came from personal observation, some from what others told me & a lot from not trusting either one & doing my own research.

The web is a wonderful tool for sorting out the difference between chicken sh*t and chicken salad. Sometimes the facts just overwhelm our long held but incorrect opinions.

I'll bet you were also told, as I was, to never set a car battery on the concrete garage floor because the concrete would drain the battery.

 

[Johns Schmincke]

Oh yea, the moisture issue. Hour usage doesnt apply here, similar to me as miles on my car.

Since 79, I change out the car about every 1500-2000 max and that varies depending on season, heat waves etc. Ordered a 79 Vette from the factory. It had 3 changes by the time it got to 1500.
I have been accused of supporting OPEC in the past.

Now, the tractor I understand is prone to moisture buildup in the trans, pump area and rear? Is that correct? PTO is capped. I do have a new boot on the shifter, I can see where water would get in there and this tractor is always covered...no garage here yet. Tuning in to the color of the oil is simply because of no knowledge of prior maint history, just field work. I changed the oil last Fall, its darker already after maybe 45 minutes max total running since then. And thats all with no load.
John

 

[Bruce (VA)]

Contrary to conventional wisdom, not a lot of water gets in the hydraulic oil from the shifter boot. Of course, if it's bad, replace it, but you get water from the draft control spring & the dipstick. But, most water is just a byproduct of the heating/cooling cycle of the oil.


Regarding the dark oil, no need to take my word for it:

" The Dark Oil Myth
Dark oil does not indicate the need for an oil change. The way modern detergent motor oil works is that minute particles of soot are suspended in the oil. These minute particles pose no danger to your engine, but they cause the oil to darken. A non-detergent oil would stay clearer than a detergent oil because all the soot would be left on the internal engine parts and would create sludge. If you never changed your oil, eventually the oil would no longer be able to suspend any more particles in the oil and sludge would form. Fortunately, by following the manufacturer's recommended oil change interval, you are changing your oil long before the oil has become saturated. Remember, a good oil should get dirty as it does it's work cleaning out the engine. The dispersant should stop all the gunk from depositing in the oil pan.

The only real way to determine whether oil is truly in need of changing is to have an oil analysis performed. Since most people don't want to bother with this, it's acceptable to err heavily on the safe side and simply follow the manufacturer's recommended change interval for severe service. There are still a few cars that specify 3K intervals for severe service, but not many. If you look at countries other than the U.S., the oil recommended change interval is much higher than even the normal interval specified by vehicle manufacturers in the U.S. "

 

[souNdguy]

yep.. diesel flush right before change.. and a lil extra run time when you use it.

that will help bundles in the long term to prevent sludge build up.

soundguy

 

[John Schmincke]

No, they didnt say that it would drain it, just that it was better to set it on a piece of wood and somewhere where it wouldnt freeze....yet sitting for several nights under the hood at 11 degrees....well, thats okay. Go figure.
John

 

[John Schmincke]

All good info there. Thank you.
John
AH, I see...you took me in the back door to read that link. hahah thats pretty good and there is a hell of a lot of info there. Ill get back to it. Some looked pretty interesting.
Thanks Bruce

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 09:53:15 06/03/11) TOH, Thanks for that info.

Okay, so let me ask you this, if you have a sludged up motor, how would you handle it?...just out of curiousity that is.

I know theres a lot of people out there with these and other machines that depend on them working daily. I had one I used to cut grass with, had a woods 59 mower. If that thing went down, I was back to a 22 inch lawn mower that would take me a week to do what that woods could do in a little over a hour...so I was very concerned with what was in that crankcase.

This N is really semi retired...me too but Id like it to be the last tractor. Its already survived the original owner.

My answer depends greatly on how much money and time you are prepared to commit. If it works and you need it simply use it till it ceases to perform to an accepatble level. Personally I would pour 10W30 (detergent) in it unless it had unaccepatle oil pressure. In that case I would grasp at straws with a heavier weight oil (15W40 or 20W50). If it still fogs mosquitos or won't make oil pressure it is time for a major overhaul and a hot tank will cure the sludge problem and new parts will cure the excessive clearance problems. At that point a good quality SAE 10W30 (detergent of course) is all you need for a long and useful service life on the rebult motor. Note that at no point would I worry about using a detergent oil in the old motor - that is the least of your worries.

TOH

 

[Gaspump]

With the older batterys with asphaltic cases it was a good idea to store them on a board. Once the cases evolved there was no need for an insulator and those old cases were gone by the 50's. I too find it unusual that anyone would use non detergent oil in a car built in 1956. Not sure about when I changed but I know for certain my new 1957 Ford car never had anything but Trop-Artic 10W-30 in it.

 

[John Schmincke]

Personally, Id love to pick a nice specimen of a engine, roll it into the basement as I work from home & my studio is in the basement and in my spare time which I do have a good bit of, I could do many things to that engine as an ongoing project and eventually switch it out. I have a V12 I built and totally enjoyed doing it, little piece x piece. Im saving it for a boat, motorcycle, old car, where ever I decide to stuff it...no, not in this N.
This N by the way currently has 30wt Traveller non det. Non det was reccomended by the old timer I bought the tractor from so I stuck with it but from what Im reading here, guess I goofed. Too bad I hadnt met you guys yet when I bought it. With that 30wt, oil pres is 48 at startup. Goes down to 38-40 after running awhile but in my ownership, running a while is only about 20-30 minutes max. I wonder what the neighbors think when I cruize around the house about 30 times...what they dont know is Im getting a feel for the sherman turtle & rabbit, 1, 2 & 3...forget the brakes at the moment. Brakes on this tractor are like brakes in a boat. Thats another chapter later.

I respect your answer though. I am going with yours and soundguys advice. Guess it cant hurt anything but if it does, well I'll switch to plan B - not in place yet.

 

[John Schmincke]

Gaspump, You know what...Bruce is talking about old myths vs todays technology. So, Ive been thinking about this and dad worked for Anchor Motor Freight in Baltimore for some 19 years hauling Chevrolets all over the East coast. Those car carriers had 348s and 409s in them. I bet the mechanics at Anchor used the cheapest oil in those engines because they had to. Dad was buddies with a few of the mechs...I remember some of his stories...had to be or your rig was trash on wheels. I bet he picked up the non detergent phylosolophy...damn happy hour...from those guys. That 56 was the 1st new car he had ever bought and Id bet he thought those guys knew what they were doing so he followed. I guess, what did he know...he was a fisherman from Maine originally. The Amoco station up the street that always serviced our family car was a good one for doing the same thing. Hell, I was 16 and stopped in there with a few extra bucks in my pocket one day since the fillup was only $5.20 @ .35 a gallon, and asked the guys to throw in a new set of points & condensor. The mechanic was stumped, the station owner was away with the tow truck, I had to tell the mechanic he needed to check the gap on the high side of the cam. Well, from that point forward I did my own. Long story short, I believe thats how the non detergent wound up in my 56. Dad really was not tuned into mechanical things. He loved mom though!!!
John

 

[36 Coupe]

That was a crock.A battery that sets on a concrete floor dosent care.