Ed Douglas
Member
Hey Forum Chums
Any recommendations for breakin on a fresh rebuild on a 2n Engine?
Many Thanks!
Any recommendations for breakin on a fresh rebuild on a 2n Engine?
Many Thanks!
Tall T
Well-known Member
Because the oil goes to the bearings before it gets to the filter
with this type of By Pass filtration, for myself if I did a [b:c8969c34c2]machine shop specs rebuild[/b:c8969c34c2] I've always gone light Non-degergent.
I usta use the lightest Kendal and Quaker State Non-detergents for the breaking in I did. I forget the viscosities . . .now I'm going to have to go check my old 5W notes.
But break-in oil so light it you can hear it raining down off the crank and cylinders at shutdown.
After break in period, then go detergent 10W40.
Hope ya don't mind me and my suggestions.
T
You'll need to break-in the cam according to the process recommended by the cam manufacturer if new. They usually give you the lube for the cam. The ring manufacturer will specify a procedure also according to the ring coating. From what I've seen, they want you to lightly load/ medium load the rings (actual driving) several times and then back off the throttle. I would, after camshaft break in, change the oil and filter. The last engine I did used chrome rings and stopped smoking after a few minutes.
Tall T
Well-known Member
I rebuilt a '52 Pontiac flat head in the late 70's and the camshaft bearings were a trip!
I got them from Woodenville, Washington. I dropped them off with my block at the old R. Angus machine shop in Victoria, B.C.
and came back to this island.
When I went over to pick up my block with the new camshaft bearings installed, Bill said, "You're darn lucky we're giving you a deal at regular bearing installation cost; those bearings you left with us were 'Semi-Finished'! We had to fit each bearing to its journal! What a deal!
Those old boys were good to me. Just as R.Angus Machine Shop was closing forever I went over to Victoria to pick up a 6 cylinder Datsun block I had left with them. I was surprised to see the big shop looking gutted. Bill said, "Where the heck were you a few days earlier, we could have filled up your flat deck with good stuff!"
At breakin, I just slathered those camshaft bearings with lubriplate.
Bill M. From Illinois
Member
I think there is a Lucas break-in additive with zinc that is supposed to be good with engines with flat tappets.
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
I am gonna assume a few things.
Crank it over with the spark plugs out and confirm oil pressure while crank N, no oil pressure find out WHY.
Be prepared to adjust the ignition timing if it has an adjustable adjustment (front mount owners should have found TDC and marked it on the front pulley with a relations to something so they could adjust the timing and not depend on the factory guess) If not they missed the boat
Fluids topped off battery fully charged timing light hooked up light it off confirm oil pressure run it at haft throttle (1000 to 1200 RPM) set timing at total advance.
Run it this way for 15 minutes are until it reaches full normal operating temperature.
You can then idle it down check/set base timing and adjust the carburetor.
When ready to go for a test run vary the RPM I like to lug the engine in high gear then apply full throttle while in high gear up to full RPM are close shut the throttle all the way to idle let it coast down and repeat about 20 times. This puts pressure on the rings to seat...
Oil; put what you plan to run in it the rest of its life. That s basically IT The rest is just common sense
On an N after you are satisfied things are going well re-torque the head gasket That s the short version no need to make it harder than it needs to be
Tall T
Well-known Member
Old Sarge,
By first ever rebuild had By Pass oil filtration and light Non-detergent was always recommended because of the fact that the oil goes from the oil pump straight to the bearings before it gets to the oil filter.
So to minimize the risk of detergency keeping any break-in wear particles in suspension and transporting them to the bearings, they could settle out in the sump.
But after the break-in period when the break-in oil is dumped, then detergent mulitgrade should be used.
On an engine with a non Bypass, modern spin on oil filter, detergent oil can be used for break-in too because the oil goes from the oil pump straight to the filter before it gets to the bearings.
So choosing to use a non detergent to break in an engine with a By pass oil filtration system is a lot more than just the complicating of a simple procedure.
TheOldHokie
Well-known Member
- Location
- Myersville, MD 21773
A couple misconceptions here. You are confusing dispersants with detergents and misrepresenting their functions.
The combustion process produces insoluble soot, acids, varnishes, and resins whuch contaminate the oil. Detergents and dispersants are used to control those contaminants.
Detergents are polar base agents and perforn two functions. First they neutralize those nasty acids preventing damage to fragile metal surfaces like the bearings. Second they chemically bond with the metal surfaces of the engine and prevent the resins and varnishes from adhering to them. This keeps those [b:9fdd14a354] chemical contaminants [/b:9fdd14a354] in suspension until they are removed by filtration or oil change. Unless you think acids and varnish deposits are good for your brand new engine you want detergents in your break in oil.
Dispersants are also polar compounds that actively bond with microscipically small ash and soot particles. This neutralizes their charge and helps keep them in suspension and prevent them from settling out on metal surfaces as sludge. These particles are too small to be filtered and are removed when you change the oil. Unless you think leaving sludge in a brand new engine is desirable you want dispersants in your break in oil.
Wear particles are a different category of contaminant. In a bypass filtering system some fixed percentage of wear particles are going to bypass the filter and go through the bearings. That's the way it works regardless of the presence or absence of detergents or dispersants in the oil.
TOH
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
TOH[/quote]
That's good TOH, Lets not forget the filter does not trap it all...
Once the oil is drained are if a engine sets for quite awhile contaminants will settle to the bottom of the pan are the container you store used oil in. I store my used oil in 250 gal. totes even tho I somewhat filter used oil before it goes in the tote it will amaze folk's of the sludge that accumulates in the bottom of the totes.
I have built more than my fair share I use the oil I plan to run in it the rest of its life. I have never used non-detergent oil in a combustion engine unless it was a mistake...
That's good TOH, Lets not forget the filter does not trap it all...
Once the oil is drained are if a engine sets for quite awhile contaminants will settle to the bottom of the pan are the container you store used oil in. I store my used oil in 250 gal. totes even tho I somewhat filter used oil before it goes in the tote it will amaze folk's of the sludge that accumulates in the bottom of the totes.
I have built more than my fair share I use the oil I plan to run in it the rest of its life. I have never used non-detergent oil in a combustion engine unless it was a mistake...
Tall T
Well-known Member
I've had a 700 page book for years titled
"Auto Engines and Electrical Systems"
Published by MOTOR 1973
By Harold F. Blanchard, S.A.E.
and Ralph Ritchen, S.A.E.
On page 194 where they are talking about oil keeping engines clean
they never use the word "detergent" by itself or the word "dispersant" by itself; in fact they always use the term "detergent/dispersant" four times on page 194.
When I wrote what I first wrote and posted it, I was thinking about the word "dispersant".
Quotes from the book's engineers:
"Modern oils have chemical additives known as "detergent/dispersants" blended into them during manufacture."
" The function of the Detergent/dispersant (singular) in a modern oil is to suspend these contaminants in such fine form within the oil that they can be removed when the oil is drained."
"In service the detergent/dispersant (singular) is used up by doing its job of suspending contaminants."
Three more times on Page 195 "detergent/dispersant" is used.
So, of course I'm wrong but I think that a NON-Detergent oil is a non-dispersant oil as well; i.e., they go hand in hand like a singular additive.
Just as it does here when they say: "While in theory, more detergent/dispersant could be added to a used oil after the original [b:349adfb6e9]additive[/b:349adfb6e9] (SINGULAR) is exhausted, this is not practical or economical in practice."
According to that statement, the singular additive is called, detergent/dispersant.
I'm not sure where I found the recommendation to use a non-detergent for break in on my 235 with the bypass oil filtration system, but it sure wasn't heresy or something I picked up from the internet as that rebuild was in 1975. I did all my learning from 50's manuals at the Vancouver library.
So non detergent is also non dispersant oil so it doesn't keep contaminants in suspension during break in. My 235 doesn't burn a drop of oil and I still have 48 psi which is factory pressure. That rebuild is 45 years old; but granted it only has 25,000 miles on it. I'd use non-detergent again for breakin but only if the oil filtration was a Bypass system where the oil goes from the pump to the bearings before it gets to the filter line in the gallery..
"Auto Engines and Electrical Systems"
Published by MOTOR 1973
By Harold F. Blanchard, S.A.E.
and Ralph Ritchen, S.A.E.
On page 194 where they are talking about oil keeping engines clean
they never use the word "detergent" by itself or the word "dispersant" by itself; in fact they always use the term "detergent/dispersant" four times on page 194.
When I wrote what I first wrote and posted it, I was thinking about the word "dispersant".
Quotes from the book's engineers:
"Modern oils have chemical additives known as "detergent/dispersants" blended into them during manufacture."
" The function of the Detergent/dispersant (singular) in a modern oil is to suspend these contaminants in such fine form within the oil that they can be removed when the oil is drained."
"In service the detergent/dispersant (singular) is used up by doing its job of suspending contaminants."
Three more times on Page 195 "detergent/dispersant" is used.
So, of course I'm wrong but I think that a NON-Detergent oil is a non-dispersant oil as well; i.e., they go hand in hand like a singular additive.
Just as it does here when they say: "While in theory, more detergent/dispersant could be added to a used oil after the original [b:349adfb6e9]additive[/b:349adfb6e9] (SINGULAR) is exhausted, this is not practical or economical in practice."
According to that statement, the singular additive is called, detergent/dispersant.
I'm not sure where I found the recommendation to use a non-detergent for break in on my 235 with the bypass oil filtration system, but it sure wasn't heresy or something I picked up from the internet as that rebuild was in 1975. I did all my learning from 50's manuals at the Vancouver library.
So non detergent is also non dispersant oil so it doesn't keep contaminants in suspension during break in. My 235 doesn't burn a drop of oil and I still have 48 psi which is factory pressure. That rebuild is 45 years old; but granted it only has 25,000 miles on it. I'd use non-detergent again for breakin but only if the oil filtration was a Bypass system where the oil goes from the pump to the bearings before it gets to the filter line in the gallery..
TheOldHokie
Well-known Member
- Location
- Myersville, MD 21773
Dispersants and detergents are two different classes of additives. They are chemically different compounds and they act on the polar products of combustion not metallic wear particles which is why your seat of the pants engineering analysis based on that 50 year old "Cliff Notes" description of detergents and dispersants is faulty.
The historical reason non or low detergent oils were thought to be better for breakin was the chemistry of tbe anti-war additives in oil. AW additives like ZDDP use polar chemistry very similar to that used by dispersants and detergents and the AW compounds compete with the dispersants and detergents for the same molecular bonds. It was a common belief that a non-detergent oil improved the AW performance and helped reduce scuffing during breakin. It had nothing to do with filtering and was questionable on its face. Modern chemistry has found newer detergent/dispersant/AW compounds that work in synergy for those bonds. The carefully engineered chemical balance of a modern oil has put an end to that breakin scuffing idea in anything other than very high performance racing engines.
Since you like to stay abreast of technology you might try reading something a little newer and with a more in depth discussion of exactly what these detergebt/dispersant additives are and how they work in a modern oil. The internet is a great research tool that has made the lives of scientists, researchers, and engineers so much easier. if properly used will give you access to all sorts of scholarly articles, peer reviewed research papers, and engineering science. No more long nights spent pawing through the card catalog only to find the book or article was checked out. Here is a short description I copied and pasted from one such internet source. It is an elementary summary of the differences between dispersants and detergents and their modes of operation. Notice the size of the particles they target - very small mass and too small to filter. You can easily find much more detailed descriptions of these additives and how they work but they tend to be a little harder for the average Joe to understand.....
Happy reading,
TOH
[i:0d1a6e6be6]Detergents are oil soluble bases that are derived from the organic soaps or salts of calcium, magnesium or sodium or, barium. Primarily, today they are calcium or magnesium based. These materials are often referred to as organo-metallic compounds and they are polar in nature, which allows them to cling to the surfaces of particles. Detergents serve two principal functions.
First, [b:0d1a6e6be6]they lift any deposits from the surfaces of the engine to which they adhere to and then chemically combine <with them> to form a barrier film, which keeps the deposits from coming out of suspension and coagulating. [/b:0d1a6e6be6]Detergents form two kinds of barrier films. On small particles, (generally less than 0.02 microns in size), detergents form an absorbed film which slows down coagulation of the particles. On much larger particles, (ranging from 0.5 to 1.5 microns in size), detergents cause the particle surfaces to acquire an electrical charge of the same sign so they can repel each other. <to prevent agglomeration>
The polar metallic heads of detergents have a great affinity for each other. These molecules attract each other like magnets and form clusters called "micelles".
The [b:0d1a6e6be6]deposit precursors being oil-insoluble have a greater affinity for the detergent molecule than the oil molecules[/b:0d1a6e6be6]. They are attracted to the detergent micelles (much like iron fillings are drawn to a magnet) and trapped within them. Thus, they are kept in solution in the engine oil and cannot settle out to form deposits in the engine.
The number of particle that can be contained in a micelle is limited. When a number of particles exceed the capacity of the type of detergent chemistry being used deposits can form. Therefore it is necessary that the engine oil be drained before this happens if engine cleanliness is to be maintained.
Secondly, detergents neutralize any acids formed by the combustion of the fuel by chemically reacting with the acids in order to form harmless neutralized chemicals.
[b:0d1a6e6be6]Dispersant's are polar additives that are used to disperse sludge and soot particles for the purpose of preventing agglomeration, settling and deposits. [/b:0d1a6e6be6]Dispersant's envelops particles and keep them finely divided. Dispersant's are polymeric and ashless compounds. These compounds are based on long chain hydrocarbons, which are acidified and then neutralized with a compound containing basic nitrogen.
The hydrocarbon portion provides oil solubility, while the nitrogen portion provides an active site that attracts and holds potential deposit forming materials to keep them suspended in the engine oil.
This dispersant molecule combines a compact, electrically polar head and a long, oil soluble tail, which might look like this.
In a succinimide dispersant, (which is the most widely used type of dispersant chemistry used), the piece on the right containing nitrogen (N) is the polar head; the piece both containing nitrogen (N) and oxygen (O) is the connecting link. "R" is the long, oil soluble tail. The polar heads attach themselves to any deposits or acids that may be formed by the combustion of the fuel to form micelles which are taken into solution in the oil by the R's. These micelles can trap deposit precursors up to 0.05 microns in size by proving a thick absorbed barrier film or they can also hold larger particles up to 0.1 micron in size by electrical charge repulsion. In this state, the acids and deposits cannot see the engine's metallic surfaces.
As mentioned earlier in this discussion on detergents and dispersant's, one of their functions is to help neutralize any acids that are formed by the combustion of the fuel. Each of these additives contributes to the neutralization of these acids by proving the engine oil with a Total Base Number (TBN).
TBN measures an engine oil's ability to neutralize acids that are formed by combustion. As long as an engine oils TBN stay above a certain limit during use (generally of its original TBN number), during use the engine oil is still fit for service. In fact a new oil's TBN is less important than the TBN during service, which protects the engine. An engine oil must have the ability to retain its TBN reserve (alkalinity reserve) that is contributed by both the detergents and dispersant's during its entire drain interval.
Of these two additives, it is detergents that offer the best alkalinity reserve. Though dispersant's are a necessary additive for the formulation of engine oils, and engine oil's total TBN that is derived through the use of high dispersant chemistry does not offer adequate protection an engine needs against the corrosive attack of acidic combustion by-products. dispersant's are more rapidly depleted than detergents because of the way they chemically react with acids that are formed and by the way they react with other particulate contaminants.
Detergents, on the other hand, because they chemically react with the acids and any other particulate contaminants that are present in the engine oil, have the ability to retain their TBN reserve over longer periods of time[/i:0d1a6e6be6]
ey guys, don't get too hung up on the definitions and derail this post. The man asked a good question. I have never rebuilt an engine with partial filtration either and would like to get some personal experience and tips myself. There is a lot of metal dust coming off the cylinder walls and lifters.
TheOldHokie
Well-known Member
- Location
- Myersville, MD 21773
This thread got derailed with the idea you needed to do something special. Fill it with a good quality HD engine oil, run it long enough to bed in the new parts, drain and refill. There is nothing you can do oil wise that is going to stop the wear metals from going through the bearings because that is the nature of bypass filtering.
TOH
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