I am not much of a painter,i have sanded and welded in some patches on some of the sheet metal,also used some filler primer,evercoat rage gold.Media blasted what sheet metal i could get into machine.I have some rust pit areas but not too bad for a 57 tractor.Question is would you now shoot this with kirker epoxy or would you use Evercoat Finish Sand 4:1.I have never used either,is either one safer to use?I don't have funds to do a base coat for now and outside temp needs to get warmer..any thoughts would like to use a better paint that enamel when i do base coat
Epoxy first. That would be my choice even though the Evercoat finsh sand is rated to direct to metal. I've had really good results with Kirker epoxy. And it is one of the most affordable products out there. Mixes 1:1, no induction time no wait to spray. Since it's a 1:1 mix you get 2 gallons ready to spray for less than most 4:1 epoxies 5 qts rts.
Good base for sanding primer or more body work, filler on the epoxy, after sanding.
Good base for sanding primer or more body work, filler on the epoxy, after sanding.
showcrop
Well-known Member
I applied DTM filler first. If I had put primer on first it would have all gone on the floor, LOL. I did, however, use rust converter first where I had rust. You can never depend on sandblasting to get it all out of the pits. I had pro body shop do some hood panels for me a few years back. They used the D-A to take it all down to bare metal. Three years later I had paint bubbling up where there were pits.
Thanks for info on masks,may never get to paint anything else but i want to be as safe as i can and buy the best i can afford on the PPE stuff...got some rust preventive from NAPA,alot like por 15 but a few more features,month out of date so it was affordable.......going to use that on the fender rust pit area and outer edge areas and then will seal it with the kirkers epoxy.. will finish all the sheet metal....what would be the best to clean the gun with after shooting the epoxy?
I always use lacquer thinner. It seems to be the cheapest solvent most of the time. Do NOT store the gun with lacquer thinner in it though. Get it drained out and put a few ounces of mineral spirits in.
POR type products are hard to scuff to get something else to adhere, and in reality aren't any better than just getting it sealed off with epoxy.
I'd say 3 years is awfully fast, especially for something like a hood, and yes they should have some form of warranty on their work.
I should have worded what I said more carefully, though: "epoxy primer is every bit as good as POR 15 at sealing remaining rust away." It's more of a direction to not spend the effort on something like POR that is harder to deal with for a topcoat, and is brittle in areas that flex. I'm not a proponent of just sealing rust away, however I'm surprised that you had some come back through in that application. Possibly they used urethane sealer instead, or the pits actually had pinholes on the back side of them?
This is one of those applications (rust pits) that I'm pro-conversion coating to dissolve it out of there, so long as the time is taken to prep that phase after that. However, 3 years is really fast. The idea behind POR 15, Rust bullet, dozens of other "paint over rust" products is that they seal the oxygen from the rust and thus it can no longer react/grow. I believe that they and epoxy are effective in doing this on surface rust only, if there is a flake there then the seal is broken.
Even on something like a pitted up battery box, I've gotten better than 3 years out of cheap primer and paint with less than stellar, hacky work. That time frame for failure is utterly horrible for a body shop...A cab corner? Sure...it could have been 10 minutes away from rusting through...but a hood? I hope you fought them.
What i bought was rust proof M/D..which i can take back......OK what would you be using on bare metal rust pit area's..the shelfs are full of stuff...something afordable and i don't want to use acid that i have to wash bare metal off with water..i know it's going to rust somewhere in time for sure
showcrop
Well-known Member
dg7766 If you don't want to rinse after rust converter you have to plan on rust popping your paint. It is either kill the rust by converting it to Iron phosphate, or plan on it coming up through your paint. I have been using rust converters for thirty years. Not successfully at first, but I learned. I wash it good with water after the required working time, then wipe down with alcohol insure that I don't get flash rust. Rust converters do not "seal from oxygen" as Yakob says. They convert the rust to inert iron phosphate, which is the black coating on your impact wrench sockets. Look it up, buy it, follow instructions.
Guys,again i thank you for your comments.....i am in the middle,have patched ,bond and sanded to bare metal all my sheet metal......i know i'm going to order the kickers epoxy primer tomorrow..i can't come up with a convertor on my own....drove me crazy..i'll just ask auto body mart what they sell the most for this application and go with it.i couldn't bring myself to wet this stuff down as long as it's been sanded but i'll do it if that's what it takes...Eastwood talks about there Fast etch but i thought etching and epoxy primer shouldn't be used together..i've read too much..yall do it everyday i don't..thanks again...i have used Pour 15 before and to me it was worthless and i know the sadness of spending the time and money to watch it get eatup with rust...
showcrop
Well-known Member
dg7766, I have been using SEM Rust Mort. SEM is a manufacturer that produces products for the auto-body industry. Their products are all labeled for "professional use only" but of course you can still buy them. I was turned onto them by a friend that has an auto-body shop where he does a lot of restoration work. The products are sold by auto parts stores. I use a few other products of theirs as well.
SPI epoxy and HOK epoxy are 2 that I have read go awry when being used over acids without special attention being taken. Kirker is not one with this particular issue.
I think a lot of the problem with these conversion coatings is the fact that there are so many of them that are essentially the same product but have varying promises revolving around differing sets of instructions. Some just say "brush on, paint over, it's that easy!" This type of use will cause adhesion issues with about anything and should be avoided. There needs to be enough to react with the surface and dissolve any rust, any excess is just dried product. This is why I voice concern over procedures that do not seem to ensure there is no remaining product left on the surface, unreacted.
To me these products are for great for rust removal but need special attention paid when the plan is to leave them on as a coating.
I totally agree with show that any rust should be mitigated in some fashion before painting. However I will also admit that I have primed and painted some less than stellar metal on less important projects with no ill effects. Just don't press your luck on how much you get away with, it will bite you in the arse eventually.
showcrop
Well-known Member
Yakob, It looks like we may be coming to some agreement here! I am very careful to not leave unreacted product. During the early stages of a project I clean parts by the various usual methods, and then after rust conversion according to product instructions, I clean the parts thoroughly to remove any residue. small parts go in a bucket of warm water while large ones go to the hot water pressure washer. In order to prevent flash rust I wipe down with an alcohol soaked cloth. This process started for me when I was picking up paint and epoxy primer for a dump truck body that I had just sandblasted. The paint specialist asked me if I had acid wash. He said that I couldn't prime over steel that had been rusted with pits without it. I had never heard of it so I allowed myself to become educated.
I haven't been trying to argue against the products in their entirety, but there are concerns around them that I felt were worth clarifying. I've been strongly in favor of these products in pitting since the beginning, and find that to be that 1 out of 10 worthwhile use for them. It is hard to communicate in threads bluntly sometimes.
Funny you mentioned to "use the instructions." I'm also a fan of label reading for products, especially ones new to me. There are so many of these nearly identical coatings that have differing instructions, some of which are their own undoing with magical promises. The appeal of over simplifying sells more product to a hobbyist.
Even paintron's "fool proof" zinc phosphate instruction thread did not address a cleaning stage after applying the product. This is a red flag in any procedure ESPECIALLY with certain primers that are known to not play nice with these products as a substrate.
Some of the products I've ran across say not to let dry, and if they do dry to apply more, work it in, and rinse. Some say just roll it on. Some say work it in with a pad.
If I recall, products like POR 15 actually say that they NEED a light layer of rust to grip to.
Answering my own post to add my choice of rust converter/surface treatment. Picklex20. Very expensive for that type of product, but a little goes a long way if you follow the instructions.
I have some parts in my shop that were blasted over 5 years ago and then treated with this stuff. NO surface rust at all, just look like they were blasted yesterday.
Even in a dry shop, bare steel would be red all over by now if untreated.
It's not available locally so I order on the 'net when needed.
......................... A lot of good info from all...my last question...Looks like i did a bad thing doing my filler before treating rust ...SEM rust mort and Picklex20 both say to do filler after...is there anything i can use and not mess up the filler or adhesion of the epoxy primer put on top of it....or just not apply convertor to the bondo areas and i'll be ok..sorry for asking crazy questions but i can't get past the rust treatment
showcrop
Well-known Member
I a not sure that I understand your question. If you are asking if it is OK to put filler or primer over converter treated areas, absolutely! No matter what is on a surface it needs to be properly cleaned, and the same goes for converters. Simply follow instructions. If you are asking about how to proceed because you know that you have trapped rust under filler or primer, the answer is that if you want the job to last you need to remove the primer and filler and get the rust out and treated.
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