Ethanol based fuel

[mikesbailey]

Will it cause a Farmall C to run weird. Seems even after a carb rebuild and such, the throttle response, and choke seem to not run all that great. If so what can be done, seems our gov't thinks this crap is good for our vehicle

 

[John M]

I would suspect other problems than the fuel, unless its old. ID be willing to be if you went and purchased a few gallons on non ethanol it would still like you say it does, but I suppose the last 35 years of running this crap has ruined your tractor beyond repair?

 

[gene bender]

Is you throttle linkage set correct and does the input arm on the gov have a lot of slop. Your problem isnt the fuel. Pull the plugs and lay them in order looking at each one for how good they are firing. And while the plugs are out run a compession check

 

[Janicholson]

New fuel on top of 10 year old varnish wil be a problem, the reality is the new fuel is fine and dandy. A clean system is best policy. Jim

 

[Harry Klever]

Ethanol is fine as long as the engine is built for it, like the plastic tank, and plastic lines,variable timing, etc. But putting it these older tractors that don't get used that much it's a much different situation.

 

[Brendon-KS]

I usually run 10% ethanol in my antique tractors
if I expect to be using them enough to keep it
from getting stale in the tank. During the fall
I'll spend the extra money for pure gas since ten
gallons will last me until spring. (At our local
station it is either 87 octane E10 or 91 octane
pure gas; price difference is about 40 cents.)
I've never had any problems that I would attribute
to using E10. However, I do always use pure gas
when mixing up 2-stroke fuel.

 

[rustyfarmall]

(quoted from post at 16:31:55 09/27/14) Will it cause a Farmall C to run weird. Seems even after a carb rebuild and such, the throttle response, and choke seem to not run all that great. If so what can be done, seems our gov't thinks this crap is good for our vehicle

I've been using E10 in everything since it was introduced in the late '70s. My old Farmalls LIKE it. Ethanol does NOT go bad if left setting in a tank over the winter, OR over the summer. Ethanol WILL NOT cause carburetor issues, and nothing special needs to be done to the fuel system. I even ran my my 1940 M and my 1940 H on E85 for one full summer. Both tractors ran VERY well, and nothing strange happened to either one of them.

Also, none of the engines have been rebuilt. All of my tractors are just as I found them. The M has the 4 inch, flat top pistons.

 

[teddy52food]

My H sat for 2 years with E10 in it. Put a battery in it & it fired up & ran like always. Just what is your problem?

 

[WellWorn]

Mike, ethanol is what many folks put in their gas tanks intentionally every winter to prevent fuel line freeze-ups, since the 1940's - it sold under the brand name of "Heet", amongst others. Possibly still does, but with alcohol now in most gas, in ordinary circumstances there is no need to add more. There is also "Iso-heet" based on isopropyl alcohol. Matter of fact, you may even seen alcohol fueled dragsters, with methanol in the mix.

Octane (gasoline) or Cetane (diesel fuel) and water separate. Most (if not all) alcohols are hydroscopic, meaning they absorb water. They also readily mix with oils, and burn, taking otherwise non-combustible water out of your fuel system a few drops at a time without making things run badly or stop. What a nifty idea.

There is a lot of money being made by hucksters selling 'snake oil' for all the ailments supposedly caused by ethanol in gasoline. Most of those problems are due to poorer quality materials put into fuel systems these days, not the ethanol itself. The biggest problem with ethanol, is the amount of energy that goes into making it (planting, harvesting, transporting, distilling) vs the lower 'work' value per gallon over gasoline. I noticed about a 6% reduction in fuel economy when E-10 was mandated, though I've also used E85 in my (non-e-85 rated) car without problems, other than even lower mpg.

Most tractor engines were built as low compression (~7.5:1), and will burn nearly anything that will ignite with a spark. IIRC, early gasoline had octane ratings in the 60's, not the 87+ we're accustomed to. Even the lack of methyl-ethyl lead isn't a problem, because lead was added as an anti-knock (burn control) compound for high compression (9.5+:1) engines. Ethanol works to a smaller degree the same as lead did, so it helps, rather than hinders.

Just my 2 cents.
Well Worn

 

[rustyfarmall]

(quoted from post at 09:13:48 09/28/14) Mike, ethanol is what many folks put in their gas tanks intentionally every winter to prevent fuel line freeze-ups, since the 1940's - it sold under the brand name of "Heet", amongst others. Possibly still does, but with alcohol now in most gas, in ordinary circumstances there is no need to add more. There is also "Iso-heet" based on isopropyl alcohol. Matter of fact, you may even seen alcohol fueled dragsters, with methanol in the mix.

Octane (gasoline) or Cetane (diesel fuel) and water separate. Most (if not all) alcohols are hydroscopic, meaning they absorb water. They also readily mix with oils, and burn, taking otherwise non-combustible water out of your fuel system a few drops at a time without making things run badly or stop. What a nifty idea.

There is a lot of money being made by hucksters selling 'snake oil' for all the ailments supposedly caused by ethanol in gasoline. Most of those problems are due to poorer quality materials put into fuel systems these days, not the ethanol itself. The biggest problem with ethanol, is the amount of energy that goes into making it (planting, harvesting, transporting, distilling) vs the lower 'work' value per gallon over gasoline. I noticed about a 6% reduction in fuel economy when E-10 was mandated, though I've also used E85 in my (non-e-85 rated) car without problems, other than even lower mpg.

Most tractor engines were built as low compression (~7.5:1), and will burn nearly anything that will ignite with a spark. IIRC, early gasoline had octane ratings in the 60's, not the 87+ we're accustomed to. Even the lack of methyl-ethyl lead isn't a problem, because lead was added as an anti-knock (burn control) compound for high compression (9.5+:1) engines. Ethanol works to a smaller degree the same as lead did, so it helps, rather than hinders.

Just my 2 cents.
Well Worn

WellWorn, I have ran my 2001 Chevy K3500, 8.1 gas engine on E85. It ran good, did not trigger any engine codes or turn on any lights, but was a little slower to start in COLD weather, and also just a little sluggish until the engine warmed up a bit. I never checked the miles per gallon, but most likely it was reduced.

 

[gene bender]

So what problems should i have as i have none been using it for over 30yrs year around dont drain in winter just park and use come sprig

 

[Nate V. IA]

I agree with rusty and glenn. I run E10 all the time in everything but the chainsaw. I have even run E85 in my 450 just to see how it would run, I had to turn the load screw out a little and use the choke a little when starting. Most of the equipment sets all winter in an unheated barn, they all started right up this spring.

Nate

 

[Russ from MN]

Correction! The government isn't doing it to help
the vehicles, it's to help the environment, and we
all breath the same air! I use E-10 in all my 4-
stroke engines with no problems.

 

[mkirsch]

People just love to blame ethanol for everything from poorly running engines to toothaches... If you can't explain it, ethanol caused it.

The long and short of it is, your tractor doesn't run right because you still haven't got the carburetor completely cleaned out, or it's put together wrong, or it's set wrong.

Carburetors don't look very complicated and it seems like you can just rinse them out and slap them back together any old way and they should work... Sometimes you have to take them apart 3-4 times to get them working right, even if it seems like you didn't do anything different.

 

[David G]

E10 will not cause the kind of issues you talk about, you have another problem.

 

[rustyfarmall]

(quoted from post at 05:36:33 09/29/14) People just love to blame ethanol for everything from poorly running engines to toothaches... If you can't explain it, ethanol caused it.

The long and short of it is, your tractor doesn't run right because you still haven't got the carburetor completely cleaned out, or it's put together wrong, or it's set wrong.

Carburetors don't look very complicated and it seems like you can just rinse them out and slap them back together any old way and they should work... Sometimes you have to take them apart 3-4 times to get them working right, even if it seems like you didn't do anything different.

Agreed. Carburetors appear to be quite simple, but if you take the time to understand just exactly HOW a carburetor functions, you will realize just how complex they really are. Nothing SIMPLE about them. Also, if you truly DO understand how a carburetor functions, and take your time when rebuilding, you need to do it only ONE time.

 

[Mr. Farmall A]

Ethanol does cause problems for parts not designed to withstand it, mainly low quality replacement which is what most vendors sell. I have had 3 needle valves fail in a year, the viton tips turning into soft goo causing them to stick and the engine to stall at higher rpms or under a heavy load but idle fine.

Last month, the accel pump in my Chevy started to stick badly and had to be replaced even through it was supposed to be ethanol proof, the seal swelled to 3 times its original size. You need to use high quality parts which are not made for everything.

 

[rustyfarmall]

(quoted from post at 15:59:26 09/30/14) Ethanol does cause problems for parts not designed to withstand it, mainly low quality replacement which is what most vendors sell. I have had 3 needle valves fail in a year, the viton tips turning into soft goo causing them to stick and the engine to stall at higher rpms or under a heavy load but idle fine.

Last month, the accel pump in my Chevy started to stick badly and had to be replaced even through it was supposed to be ethanol proof, the seal swelled to 3 times its original size. You need to use high quality parts which are not made for everything.

My M has been running on E10 for all the years I have owned it, probably about 12 years. Recently I experimented with E85, and sometime after that I removed the carb and opened it up just to have a look at what the E85 MIGHT have done to it. I found that the ethanol had done absolutely NOTHING at all to that carburetor. Everything was still good to go. Including the viton tipped needle valve. That M also has an aftermarket rubber fuel line. The ethanol has done NO damage to it either.

 

[Mr. Farmall A]

Sadly I have not had the same experience as you with ethanol. I also use a rubber fuel hose which is holding up, but the needle valve tips still turn to goo and become sticky, starving the motor. Automotive carbs fair even less well with ethanol with foam floats and acceleration pumps breaking down in ethanol.

 

[rustyfarmall]

(quoted from post at 19:25:25 10/01/14)
Sadly I have not had the same experience as you with ethanol. I also use a rubber fuel hose which is holding up, but the needle valve tips still turn to goo and become sticky, starving the motor. Automotive carbs fair even less well with ethanol with foam floats and acceleration pumps breaking down in ethanol.

Foam floats and acceleration pumps? such as in the carburetors of a '71 Ford in-line 6, or a '76 Ford with a 390? I owned both of those trucks, and ran them for probably 20 years each. Never had a problem with ethanol in either one of them.

I think YOUR particular problem is coming from the ethanol DISSOLVING the varnish and sludge that is already present in the fuel tank. If that tractor was mine, I would remove the tank and clean it out thoroughly.

 

[dej(Jed)]

(quoted from post at 06:35:01 10/02/14)

(quoted from post at 19:25:25 10/01/14)
Sadly I have not had the same experience as you with ethanol. I also use a rubber fuel hose which is holding up, but the needle valve tips still turn to goo and become sticky, starving the motor. Automotive carbs fair even less well with ethanol with foam floats and acceleration pumps breaking down in ethanol.

Foam floats and acceleration pumps? such as in the carburetors of a '71 Ford in-line 6, or a '76 Ford with a 390? I owned both of those trucks, and ran them for probably 20 years each. Never had a problem with ethanol in either one of them.

I totally agree. When these old Farmalls were first designed back in the 30's, they were running on a terrible fuel. There wa sno refinery quality at all. High sulfur and particulate was the rule.

I think YOUR particular problem is coming from the ethanol DISSOLVING the varnish and sludge that is already present in the fuel tank. If that tractor was mine, I would remove the tank and clean it out thoroughly.

 

[dej(Jed)]

(quoted from post at 16:31:55 09/27/14) Will it cause a Farmall C to run weird. Seems even after a carb rebuild and such, the throttle response, and choke seem to not run all that great. If so what can be done, seems our gov't thinks this crap is good for our vehicle

I don't know what hapened with my post, but I will try this again. Ethanol isn't the probelm. I agree with (Rusty F). The fuels these old tractors ran on back in 1930 /1940/1950 was garbage compared to what you have today. You can't even begin to imagine what the old Farmalls ran on. It was loaded up with every known contaminate you could imagine. But they took it for years.

 

[mkirsch]

Frankly I don't think now is much different from the 1930's.

The ethanol is causing the problems, but INDIRECTLY.

I've placed rubber fuel hoses and viton carburetor needles in 95% ethanol (i.e. "Everclear" liquor) and noticed no ill effects. You'd think if 10% were causing havoc, 95% would cause it 9.5 times as fast, wouldn't you?

The REAL problem is the crap the fuel companies are blending in with the ethanol. Ethanol has a huge effect on the octane levels when mixed with gasoline, which means that fuel companies can use lower-grade fuel in the blend.

That lower grade fuel has more volatile compounds in it, compounds which I'm pretty sure are used in the manufacture of INDUSTRIAL SOLVENTS, that would definitely melt rubber and plastics.

 

[Mr. Farmall A]

My gas tank is clean and coated to prevent rust. People have done tests putting carb soft parts in E10 and some parts have failed soaking for as little as half an hour.

I thinking there are many sides to the problem, one being that many replacement parts are sub-standard grade from the originals.

 

[GeneMO]

(quoted from post at 07:11:24 09/28/14)

(quoted from post at 16:31:55 09/27/14) Will it cause a Farmall C to run weird. Seems even after a carb rebuild and such, the throttle response, and choke seem to not run all that great. If so what can be done, seems our gov't thinks this crap is good for our vehicle

I've been using E10 in everything since it was introduced in the late '70s. My old Farmalls LIKE it. Ethanol does NOT go bad if left setting in a tank over the winter, OR over the summer. Ethanol WILL NOT cause carburetor issues, and nothing special needs to be done to the fuel system. I even ran my my 1940 M and my 1940 H on E85 for one full summer. Both tractors ran VERY well, and nothing strange happened to either one of them.

Also, none of the engines have been rebuilt. All of my tractors are just as I found them. The M has the 4 inch, flat top pistons.

I bought a new Jeep Cherokee in 1985. Put almost 300,000 on it and it had nothing but ethanol. Not sure about old tractors though. My dad had our fuel distributer sell him some sort of a lead additive that he use in the old M's and H.

gene

 

[rustyfarmall]

(quoted from post at 19:56:31 10/02/14)

(quoted from post at 07:11:24 09/28/14)

(quoted from post at 16:31:55 09/27/14) Will it cause a Farmall C to run weird. Seems even after a carb rebuild and such, the throttle response, and choke seem to not run all that great. If so what can be done, seems our gov't thinks this crap is good for our vehicle

I've been using E10 in everything since it was introduced in the late '70s. My old Farmalls LIKE it. Ethanol does NOT go bad if left setting in a tank over the winter, OR over the summer. Ethanol WILL NOT cause carburetor issues, and nothing special needs to be done to the fuel system. I even ran my my 1940 M and my 1940 H on E85 for one full summer. Both tractors ran VERY well, and nothing strange happened to either one of them.

Also, none of the engines have been rebuilt. All of my tractors are just as I found them. The M has the 4 inch, flat top pistons.

I bought a new Jeep Cherokee in 1985. Put almost 300,000 on it and it had nothing but ethanol. Not sure about old tractors though. My dad had our fuel distributer sell him some sort of a lead additive that he use in the old M's and H.

gene

That fuel additive is good for putting money in the pockets of your fuel supplier. The old Farmalls do not need it.