Farmall F 20

[Lieu]

I looked at an F20 today that had been painted red a few years ago when it was restored. The serial number tells me it is a 1936. According to Tractordata.com, IH still painted them gray in 1936. Did the restorer paint this one the wrong color or does anyone have any ideas?

Thanks for the advice.

 

[Janicholson]

Guy Fey is considered a solid authority. Jim

Red/Gray Farmall F-20 Confused!

Yesterday's Tractors
https://www.yesterdaystractors.com cgi-bin viewit
Jun 7, 2002 According to articles written by Guy Fay, the changeover to red paint officially occured on November 1 1936, which was the start of the 1937 ..

 

[used red MN]

You said.. Did the restorer paint this one the wrong color..? Apparently he did not paint it the wrong color or at least to their liking. When he or whoever bought the paint
they surely knew it was red when they mixed it up and poured it in the sprayer and started fogging it on. So by technical terms yes it is the wrong color. However, many of the gray F20s were painted red early on. In MY OPINION unless this tractor is restored to nearly pristine condition with all the details down to the gnats butt with dent free sheet metal and a shiny automotive paint job it will make NO difference if it painted red or gray. If it were me selling it and we came down to the final haggle number and you said I just cannot pay that for a tractor painted the wrong original color I would say. Okay, come back in a month if no one else has bought it for x price by then I will give it to you for $50 less because the paint is wrong. Luckily John Deere guys do not have this problem green is green, but then there is always the question of if it is the right shade!

 

[Athol Carr]

If you check the IHC Paint Committee decisions , Decision No. 100, dated October 20 1936
states that after 1st November 1936

Entire tractor except ground wheels: Harvester Red No. 50 motor truck synthetic enamel (i.e. sprayed)
Wheels: Harvester Red Color Varnish (i.e. dipped)

 

[DeltaRed]

Early '20's were grey. Later ones were red. Your tractor(1936) falls into the mid range. So... Red is JUST FINE. Close enough.Red or grey wont make a rat's rear end of difference.No one will know(or care) if it's 'right'.

 

[redforlife]

I am not sure when the serial number break was, but Nov. 1 1936 was the time of switch to the red paint as been said. Most serial number charts go from Jan. 1 to Dec. 31., so if it's a late serial number for 36, it was likely originally red.

I have F-20 serial number 611??, and it was originally gray. So if serial number is below that, it was gray. For it to have been originally red it would have to have a serial number beginning with 6 for that year. Not sure about the rest of number. Just that early 60000 numbers were likewise gray.

I would not discriminate if wrongly painted red. Most people would not know that it was even wrong. Many grays were painted red by restorers over the years, simply because they personally didn't care for the gray.

For what it's worth, most dealerships painted the gray trade in tractors red for a long while after the paint change. Meaning, if a gray boy got traded back into the dealership, they would paint it red before re-sell. This helped greatly with the sales of the used ones. This likely went on until they came out with the super letter series, or hundred series in the 50's. By that time, the 20's were old enough that people didn't really care what color they was. But until then, they preferred the red, if only for show to the neighbors. A red one looked much newer.

If I was restoring one today, I would probably go with original paint. But there was a time when I might of went red, which I prefer.

I repainted mine red years ago. It had some red paint on it, with a layer of gray underneath. I didn't really think about, but at the time, I just thought the gray was a layer of primer. Maybe because I myself was going back with a gray primer first before the red paint. I didn't research it out at the time. But we didn't have Google and all of that at the time.

 

[Lieu]

Thank you for the information Red for life.

The F20 I am looking at is 613xx, so it would be after yours but not by much. I am confused when you stated your tractor 611xx was gray, but you said in the next sentence that for it to be originally red it would have to have a serial number beginning with 6. This confuses me since yours does start with 6 but is gray.

If I buy it and determine it should be gray, I likely won't repaint it but I would just like to know. Now that you know the starting serial number for the one I am looking at, do you think red is correct or should it be gray?

Thank you for clarifying.

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

Janicholson's post cut the quote off mid-sentence, but it states "the changeover to red paint officially occured on November 1 1936, which was the start of the 1937..."

I can't find the post in a search, but I assume the sentence went on to say something to the effect of "PRODUCTION YEAR."

Tractors don't instantly teleport from the end of the assembly line to the dealers' lots. They have to be hauled there, which can take some time especially in 1936. It would make sense for IH to start building tractors in November for January delivery to dealers.

Long story short, I would expect the first serial produced on/after 11/1/36 would be the first serial number listed for "1937" in the serial number charts. A 1937 model. Red. This could probably be confirmed with some digging in the Wisconsin Historical Society archives.

This tractor's serial number makes it a 1936. Gray would be correct, but odds are it was repainted red by the dealer when it was brought in for its first overhaul.

 

[Jim Becker]

As you suggested, serial number lists for a lot of the earlier tractors was based on the 11/1 start date. The first F-20 on November 1, 1936 was 68749. If the factory did as they were told, that is the first red F-20. Anything lower would have been gray.

(I rechecked that number on the monthly serial number list at WHS.)

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

Okay so that means the serial chart on tractordata goes goes by January 1st, as it lists the first serial for 1937 as FA-72982.

 

[Jim Becker]

I had not looked at tractordata. But that is correct, the first serial number in January 1937 was 72982.

 

[Athol Carr]

The IHC production year was 1st November to the 31st October, the 1937 production year started on 1st November 1936. IHC changed its production years to match the calendar year in 1940

 

[redforlife]

It would have to be a 6 for red to be possibble from factory. As in, beginning serial number of 5 or lower, would of certainly been gray.

That said, if beginning number is 6, that didn't make it a red one. The change happened during the 6's.

If it was red, the number had to of started with 6. But not all 6's were red. Again, change happened during the 6's. Change happened sometime after my 611?? serial number.

All I can tell you is, your serial number is either closer to the change than mine, or perhaps after.

I am not just real sure that the actual starting serial number for red is actually known.

If it's got nice paint, it just needs left alone until next paint job. Then maybe go with factory correct paint at that time. It's close enough to the change, that it doesn't really matter one way or the other. Even at a big tractor show, might be only one person there that would even know/say anything.

 

[redforlife]

If what's been said here about tractor data is correct, then the starting serial number for 37 (on this site), must of been starting serial number for Nov. 1 1936 (begining of the model year/not Jan.1). That number being 68749. That would also make 68749 being the start of red paint, and serial numbers between 68749 to 72981 being red and produced in 36 between Nov.1 and Dec.31 1936. Being the red 1936's (actually produced in 36 calender year).
For this to be true, the starting numbers on this site would have to be for Nov.1 and not Jan.1 (not sure what is this site used for a source).

I guess it comes down to what you look at and believe, and the source. I personally have a hard time believing the factory went from gray today, to red tomarow. Maybe they made a transition like that in 36, I don't know. I know factory's had a tendency to use up already produced parts before going on to any changed ones. Might stand to reason that they used up what was left of the gray paint. And that in itself would make the Nov.1 date, just an intended change date.

Other than changing to red paint, I don't think there was any other change to the 36 model for the 37. None that I know of. So why not use up what was left of the gray paint? Even if it only took a half of a production day to do it?

In 1936, you went to a dealer and ordered a new tractor, or bought one stocked at the dealer if they had one there. If it was a 36 or 37, it just was what it was. A new tractor. Having the first of the new model, or ordering one that was going to be, wasn't that big of a deal back then. Being a tractor, and a new one, was good enough back then. You was just as up town if you bought a year old new one that the dealer was slow to get sold.

Changing paint might of been a bigger deal. But it wasn't until they were out. And they weren't out, until the factory put them out. That's when they were seen, and only then did people notice. 'Hay, that's a red one. Must be a Spankin New One'. And those people didn't look at serial numbers. They looked at other things. Mainly changes.

 

[F-Dean]

When my Dad had his F-20 re-painted, he had it painted red to look like the new F-20s. This may be what happened.