Farmall Frustration

[330 Standard]

Ok folks I am a JD guy who over the last several years has been acquiring Farmall. I like the red tractors and in my area there are still a few that can be found at more
reasonable prices than JD. No offense to anyone but so far I have not found the farmall resources for parts or information nearly as vast, well organized or accessible as JD.
Here is where the frustration comes in. I have 3 tractors ( 2 super AV ??? and a Super C) and a bare engine block. Bare block is casting 251069R1 and by what I read is a C113.
The super C should have the C123 and has a water pump.
Here is where the frustration comes in. I cant see the casting numbers on all of these well because they are behind the oil filter. I guess I could pull it to see but it that
info still would not clear the mystery. One SAV has serial 340786 which by what I read makes it a 1953 and would be a late SAV and should have the C123 but it has no water
pump. The block has been cobble welded below the distributor so to restore it needs to be replaced. What should be here????? 113 or 123 ????
The real head scratcher is the other SAV. No serial number on the seat bracket or bell housing and no indication a plate was ever in either place. It has SA sheet metal and a
decal that says Super a but folks use the wrong decals all the time. SAV wheels in the back and regular wheels up front with car tires but long axle drops like an SAV and the
square SAV or industrial front axle with the support that runs back to the engine block. It has water pump and if you stripped off all the extra stuff the block looks 113/123
but......... has a dipstick access cast into the block next to the oil filter housing and has an oil filler cap located on top of the governor/hydraulic area. I thought it
might be a 100 high clear but what I see the engine doesn't match up to a 100 either due to the dipstick and filler cap on hydraulic pump. If I could at least find an
indication of where a serial number plate was then that would help as the 100 plate is supposed to be on the bell housing. I'd like to restore these tractors since they appear
to be high crops but I want to replace any improper parts someone may have used out of necessity just because they fit with the correct ones but I have to know where to start.
I hope someone can alleviate the Farmall Frustration. Lack of information is not helping turn a green guy red.

 

[used red MN]

Here is the thread he posted on Tractor Talk.
T Talk post

 

[DeltaRed]

Okay 330 you are here now. So go now and ask your questions and we can answer them.And let the fun begin!

 

[Jim Becker]

You have a lot of questions all rolled together in one post. I'm under a deadline right now and don't have a lot of time. I just had a 2 part article on the C-113 based engine in the January-February and March-April issues of Red Power. Part 1 probably covers 3/4 of your questions. A lot of your serial number effectivity questions are covered in the parts catalog. Some times it isn't easy to find, but is there. Getting all the information out of them takes careful reading.

When the Super C came along, they changed the Super A to use the Super C (or C-123) engine block. But they used thicker walled sleeves and kept the original bore. So it was still a C-113 and had no water pump. In 1954, series 2 Super As above serial 356000 (commonly called Super A1) had the C-123 engine with a water pump.

The water pump question is complicated by the possibility someone added a water pump to an engine that didn't come with one. A water pump was originally produced for power units and was available as an option on the Farmall C with a C-113. This pump would fit an A, B, Super A etc.

Your second tractor sounds like it has parts of at least 2 tractors put together. A Super AV usually had 19 inch front tires but could have had 16 inch. Wheels from other non-high crop tractors would bolt on to the original cast centers. The oil filler on the governor suggests an engine from a 140 or 240, which would have had an oil dipstick as well. What type water pump does it have? The Super C pump is in the coolant inlet (lower elbow). The 140 pump is directly on the front of the engine. The Super C has separate fan and generator belts. The 140 has a single belt. The engine number is stamped into a boss on the block, just below spark plug 1. If it is above 65000, it is a 140 type engine. (Don't confuse this with a C-113 engine number that is usually 6 digits.) Also check date codes for when the major castings were made. They look like (*3.23.X*) which reads as March, 23 and a year represented by each letter (started over with A in 1955). The block should have one near the bottom edge of the block, below the hydraulic pump. Comparing date codes on various parts can clue you in on which parts may have come from the same tractor.

That should get you started. Post back with more questions.

 

[330 Standard]

Best info I have got yet and I have been asking these questions a few years now to our local Farmall gurus. Many thanks for responding. I'm going home today and if possible
taking some pictures. Can I send them to you to look at. Also is it possible the tractor with no serial number is a 140 high crop with super A sheet metal since you say the
engine fits a 140 engine description?

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

Your SAV sounds like a "mutt," a tractor built from parts of other tractors. Someone wanted an SAV and they pieced one together for themselves.

Tractors didn't come with a dipstick until 1957, maybe 1959, and that was only the 350 and 450 tractors. Can't say about the 130/230. For sure a letter series would not have a dipstick from factory.

So your engine with a dipstick came from a power unit, most likely.

Deere is a little more organized but there also weren't as many of them, and the Deere guys seem much more "puritanical" about their tractors, everything has to be original, numbers matching, or else you get ostracized from the society and your tractors confiscated. There are a lot more IH guys who will put together a working tractor from mismatched parts and be proud of it.

 

[330 Standard]

So I am learning about Farmall folks being more an anything goes crowd and yes JD guys tend to be more like classic Corvette guys, all numbers matching etc. My user name is 330
Standard and in case you don't have any Deere background the 330 was/is one of the rarer more desired models. The one I have is all original and rusty but mechanically sound and
pretty straight. Anyway many years ago now 2-Cylinder club had their show and the 330 was the feature tractor that year. We applied (yes you had to apply and be accepted to show
a tractor there, you didn't just drive up an unload) thinking we'd be rejected because ours is not restored. They accepted it and it was photographed and mention in the magazine
that year. Lots of folks said leave it alone and not restore it. So I know what your talking about being purists but JD guys are getting better.

 

[560Dennis]

Everyone has trouble finding parts and information that pertains to their project . Thats the challenge that make a project worth doing . If were easy anybody could do it. Projects must have educational development . Press ahead ,its supposed to be fun , get in there and drill down after all there are ten thousand SA tractors made each use by different operators on different farm applications. None will be the same ! That why its a fascinating hobby ,

 

[Jim Becker]

You will probably get more timely responses if you can post your pictures here (with my current time situation). Besides, that way everyone can comment on what they notice. I think putting Super A sheet metal on a 140 is a little more difficult but that may be what you have.

 

[F-Dean]

No wonder John Deere has more parts available - they have half as many cylinders! LOL

 

[330 Standard]

Go ahead Farmall guys I am waiting on the comment the reason JD has more parts is more of them broke down and were salvaged and the Farmalls are still on the job > I really cant believe none of you have come up with that one yet.

 

[gene bender]

The blocks are the same its the sleeves that make a 113 engine or a 123 engine water pumps are bolt on and they will fit all those blocks. Later blocks would take a 3 1/4 sleeve giving 135 cu in and that lock could also use either the 3in sleeve or the 3 1/8 sleeve so you do need to measure the bore to know just which engine you have over the yrs it is the only way to now which bore you have

 

[330 Standard]

Ok here are some pictures I took of the engine and the bell housing. I included a picture of the bell housing because it is different than my other complete running SAV as well. The bell housing has an extra plug/access port in the side you can see in the picture. I hope this helps folks confirm my engine and if it should be there. Also the fan/water pump assembly is mounted on the end of the head as opposed to down on the lower water outlet on the engine like my super C. Is it possible this is a 140 high crop with super A sheet metal stuck on it since both engine and bell housing are different?

 

[SadFarmall]

Don't get too frustrated - Farmalls are fun to work on and with. Definitely get the relevant Parts Catalogs - with your machines you may need three or four. As Jim Becker wrote, some things can be difficult to find, but they are in the books somewhere.

I grew up with a Farmall M and an AW-7 Diesel, so the books seem normal to me.

Sadly, I know very little about John Deere tractors, but they are so insanely expensive in Australia I would probably have to sell my house to get one - for example a 1960 John Deere 820 sold for $23,000
https://salesandauctions.com.au/category/285/Tractors-Tractor-Sales-and-Auctions-VIC/listings/5413/1960-John-Deere-820-Vintage-Tractor-for-sale-Vic-Katunga.html
SadFarmall

 

[330 Standard]

I guess for my budget they have gotten insanely expensive here too plus in my region the supply is drying up. There are still more old Farmalls around and the prices are more
reasonable which is why I have started being interested in them. Plus I like them. When I started there were a lot of old JD plus Farmall around and prices were cheap. You could
buy them for scrap price and I have even had them given to me just to haul them off. Now folks have decided they are antique and way over priced them. Saying here is if you can
see it from the road it either ain't for sale or you can't afford it.

 

[560Dennis]

Shes a beautiful tractor ,cant wait to here it run . Take some more picture of whole tractor and post them to see what were up against of course.
Some of the places I go to for parts besides yesterday are
Bates , Steiner,Reliable eBay, Ssb , Best Junk yard for me it ole Charlie Burgh in zelionople ,pa ( I bought half a Farmall c ) from him , good people
http://www.ihpartsandequipment.com/ mark duffields very good with parts and implements . And dont Forget to try Fordson Houses in escanaba,mi.
Devons in ind. ,brillmans electric in va. Burch on eBay down south, wegners in pa. Iowa eBay ,pine eBay few more.
Im forgetting some local guys on Craigslist
Good luck

 

[Jim Becker]

Everything in your pictures (except the hood) looks like 140.
From your first picture: The dipstick is forward of the oil filter rather than behind --> 140 (maybe also 130, not sure).
Oil filler on governor --> 140. I don't think it looks like the original cap, but maybe IH changed it over the years.
From your second picture: Front wheels with stamped steel centers bolted to small hubs, rather than lugged rims bolted to large cast wheels --> 140.
From your third picture: I don't see an extra plug/port. If you are referring to the round cap behind the implement mounting pad, you should have it on your other tractors too.
I do see an unused bracket at the very left of your picture, attached at one of the bell housing to engine bolts. It is a mouting bracket for the voltage regulator and was used starting with 140 serial number 2582.

Is the fuel tank close to the hydraulic system (like your other SAV) or is there a gap of an inch or so (like your Super C)? The extra space should not be there on any Super A, but only be there on the Super A-1, 100, 130, and 140.

Does the upper radiator connection have an elbow or is it straight going into a curved hose? 140s had a straight inlet and a curved hose.

 

[330 Standard]

Seems like there is a gap over the hydraulic system but I'll have to look when I get home today. Haven't been looking that close at that area. The radiator connection is straight
inlet into a curved hose. I have done some more searching too since you responded yesterday and gave me a good place to start and now that you responded I am even more convinced
that instead of a cobbled up tractor I have mostly a 140 High Clear that somebody put Super A sheet metal on. I just can't imagine somebody going to the trouble of changing out
engine and bell housing but keeping the rear and sheet metal. Also I have had this tractor probably 10 years and it ran but smoked pretty good when I got it. If my memory is
correct it seems like the sheet metal didnt fit well at all. Next Question- As sad as it looks is it something worth pouring money and time into? Anything JD high crop is rare
and and commands high price so even the worst is worth fixing up. Not that I would ever have plans to sell I just would like to know it wouldn't be spending a $1,000 on a $200
tractor. If so right off I am going to have to try to find a hood and a grill. I've already been looking and not turned up anything yet. By the way thanks for responding. So far
you've been the most help of anyone ever and because of you I plan to subscribe to Red Power since you said you write articles for them.

 

[Jim Becker]

Splitting those tractors between the bell housing and transmission is pretty easy. So joining fronts and backs of two different tractors isn't much trouble. Checking date codes will tell you the story. You should be able to find them on all the big castings. Getting the engine serial number will also tell more about the original 140. It is stamped into the block, just below spark plug #1.

The sheet metal swap is the same job, whatever back end is on the tractor. It wouldn't be the first time somebody changed sheet metal to make a tractor look older (and potentially more valuable?) In this case, he would have changed a 140 Hi-Clear (2861 built) into a Super AV (6559 built) so I'm not sure he would have gained much. I saw a Super AV at a show once and noticed it didn't look quite right. On a closer look, I realized it was a 130 Hi-Clear with Super A sheet metal. There were only 570 130s built as Hi-Clear. Bad move. (Production numbers from Ken Updike's book)

Hi-Clear tractors are much less common than the regular versions. I don't think I can quantify how much. Hard to say what is worth pouring time and money into, probably no old tractor. If the cobble welded block is serviceable as-is, it probably isn't worthwhile to replace it. But if the tractor becomes a project just because you want to restore it, what is worthwhile becomes a personal decision.

By the way, the Super A grille is a one-piece item. The 140 grille is an assembly of a bunch of parts, and there are two versions. With your engine number, we can probably tell which version it was.

 

[330 Standard]

I looked yesterday and there is a gap between the hydraulic unit and the gas tank big enough to put my hand through on the suspected 140 and on the SAV the gas tank sits down
almost on top of the hydraulic unit. As for casting codes I am attaching a couple of pictures of a couple I found on the hydraulic unit and on the bell housing. I know the
engine codes will be more helpful but I cannot see them easily as they are behind oil filter etc so it may be a while before I pull that stuff off. The hood seems out of place
as it is a super A hood and the patina doesn't match the rest of the tractor. For the most part I really believe based on what info I have gleaned from your help that this is
a 140 and somebody for what ever reason swapped sheet metal as the hood and grill are the only 2 things that don't share the same fit and finish as the rest of the tractor. I
could see an engine swap due to necessity or some other components but basically for this to be that much mismatch it looks to me like they would have had to swap a lot. Maybe
the 2 codes I am sending will help a bit more. I'll try to find some tomorrow on the rear end as I wont have time this afternoon so please keep watching for my posts.

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

My understanding from the legendary Hugh McKay, who is no longer with us, is that the sheet metal on the 100's 130's 140's and the like was pretty poor and easily damaged. I tend to believe what he said because you often see those models of tractors with grills that look like someone was using the tractor as a battering ram.

Letter series sheet metal was common, cheap, and much more robust than the original sheet metal so it is not unheard of to find later tractors having earlier sheet metal.

 

[Jim Becker]

You have two date codes there. I can read the August 1 part of the first one but can't tell what the letter is for the year. The other one is clearly May 10 but the year is hidden behind the hydraulic line. If you can read the letters on either of them, it would be helpful.

Other places to look:
The transmission housing may have one near where your left foot would be when sitting on the tractor. The final drive housings may have them on the inner side, where you would have to crawl under the tractor to see them.

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

My best guess on the letter for the date code would be an "I" which would put the casting as being cast on August 1, 1963, firmly in the middle of 140 production.

Date codes on IH are simple if you remember that 1955=A. You can go forward of back from there. The only thing you have to keep in mind is that 1950 used T, U and V.

 

[Jim Becker]

I thought it looked like an I also. However from the information I've been able to get, the letters I, Q, U, and V were not used in the letter/year series that started in 1955.

 

[330 Standard]

I took a bunch of pictures yesterday and here is what I found. See attached
Engine serial number is 93702
Engine casting code is 5.10.G or 6
Hydraulic Unit casting code is L 6.10.X
Bell Housing casting Code is 1.1.8 or B unless it is cast upside down
Rear Axle Tube looks to be 6.13.G, 6, 8, or maybe B. This one was hard to photo due to light and being upside down under the tractor and I had to photo it in 2 pictures to get close enough to see it and it is
upside down in the uploads.
I also included a picture so you can see the hydraulic unit relative to the gas tank

You have guys have been great to help.

 

[Jim Becker]

Okay, this gives us a bunch to work with.
Engine number 93702 tracks back to July 1961, The first engine used in a 140 that month was 93292. The first the next month was 93799.

Your engine casting code would be G, not 6. That tells us the raw block was cast on May 10, 1961.
The hydraulic unit, 6.10.X is June 10, 1952.
The bell housing casting code looks upside down (not unusual). Reading it that way (in your cleaned up, improved picture) I think I see 8.1.T, August 1, 1950. That makes the time span from it to the hydraulic unit 22 months. I have seen time differences around 1 year on original tractors. So this starts to seem like a stretch, but not impossible. Maybe the hydraulics and bell housing were swapped in as a unit. A Super A bell housing explains why you couldn't find a 140 serial plate riveted to it.
The axle tube has to be a letter. G would make it June 13, 1961. Very reasonable that it is from the same tractor as the engine. If it is a B, it would be 1956, meaning parts from a third tractor. I thought it looked like it could be an S, 1949. If so, it also suggests a third tractor.

Looks to me like you have a 140 with the bell housing and hydraulic system from a Super A. Other date codes you might find from the bell housing back would tell you how much of the back half came from the Super A. But I take the axle tube as G and that suggests most of the back is from the 140.

 

[330 Standard]

Thanks for the help. Any theory on why they would swap the midsection of the tractor with a super A? I could see maybe the hydraulic unit if it started leaking bad but seems odd
to swap both. I need to look at it again but it seems like the hydraulic unit is a bit different than the one on my SAV. Also I have been searching the net and I have not had any
luck finding sheet metal for a 140. Any suggestions on where I could get sheet metal and a hydraulic unit and bell housing for a 140 to make it all match. I'm not finding much in the way of Farmall salvage for these. Obviously I will have
to have sheet metal but should I worry about making the bell housing and hydraulics match a 140?

I'd like to have a serial number on it if I could find a junker 140 bell housing with a plate. Sorry the serial number desire is a JD quirk left in me. Thanks a bunch for all the help so far.

 

[330 Standard]

Since it seems like most of it is a 140 when I tear it down to restore I'd like to build it back as a 140. In Farmall are the serial numbers recorded so that you can look at a
serial number and through archives know that it was a high clear or do they just correspond to model and year. Also as I believe you mentioned there was 2 versions of sheet metal for the 140 would I have the earlier version and how do you tell the difference? Thanks for taking time to answer all my questions.

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

If that sort of information was ever recorded, it was lost.

As I stated earlier in the thread, the 140 sheet metal was junk, and was commonly replaced with older, less expensive, and much more common letter series sheet metal when it was damaged.

If you're really set on putting 140 sheet metal back on it all I can tell you is keep searching. Sheet metal is generally hard to find because it's the first thing that gets snapped up off junked tractors if it's got any redeeming value at all.

 

[Jim Becker]

I don't know details on the 140 well enough to tell you how the hydraulic system or bell housing vary from the Super A. I would expect differences to be minor. Your hydraulic block varies from a 140 block only by the revision number (advanced from 1 5). Changing to a 140 unit might get you little more than a credible date code. Your bell housing is probably an "early" Super A part. If so, it has an oval hand hole on the bottom. Later ones and on through the 140 had a round hand hole. I don't know what other differences exist. It can't be major as the 140 part was listed for replacing the earlier one.

Your sheet metal would have been the early style. You can see each on this page (if site rules allow):

http://www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/004/6/5/4657-farmall-140-photos.html

For replacement sheet metal, you might try JP Tractor Salvage in Fredericktown MO. Beyond that, you might have some luck with salvage yards in the south east (like North Carolina).