Farmall H Starter Issues

[Weissman4]

Ok guys I?m new to this tractor it is a Farmall H (Not sure on the year as I cannot seem the match the numbers to any I have found online). The tractor has been converted to a 12v system with the standard 6v starter still in place like most other old IH tractors that have been converted to 12v. So here is the issue the original starter in the tractor went out and I had it rebuilt put it back in the tractor and started it twice. The nothing. I pulled the starter out and tested it and I could never get the bendix to engage or spin. Luckily I pulled the starter off of another old H we had and put it on this tractor and started it up and let the tractor run while I was tuning the carb. I killed the tractor and when to start it and nothing! So my question is why is my tractor eating up starters? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[caterpillar guy]

I don't think it is a starter problem. Those old tractors were famous for the starter gear sticking in the ring gear when you go to start them. Just put it in 5th and rock it should hear a click or pop that will be the gear released. Or take the 2 bolts loose and wiggle it till it is loose. Report back after that. The sticking is usually the ring gear being worn and dubbed over some along with the drive gear in the starter.

 

[Weissman4]

I just went out and tried it with no luck. All that seems to happen is the solenoid clicks when you tray to start it. I tried the same tactic with the first starter with no luck. Then I pulled it out and tried it on a battery with no luck.

 

[Grandpa's Fords]

I have the same issue as caterpillar guy has described it. Coincidentally the issue started when I converted it to 12v.
Ring gear worn some not so bad that I want to split the old girl. 12volt spun much harder and faster than the 6volt.

Your tractor has a solenoid?

 

[rustyfarmall]

(quoted from post at 08:26:20 12/23/18) I just went out and tried it with no luck. All that seems to happen is the solenoid clicks when you tray to start it. I tried the same tactic with the first starter with no luck. Then I pulled it out and tried it on a battery with no luck.

Is the battery fully charged? A weak battery will do exactly what you are describing.

 

[Weissman4]

The battery was trading around 12.50v when I tested it with the multimeter and when I had it running the battery was sitting right around or under 14v. Yes my H has a solenoid.

 

[Janicholson]

If a starter won't spin when on the bench, it is either jammed internally (exploded) or open (brushes not touching or wire broken. They are series wound motors. if jammed, they will make nasty sparks and not spin. If open they will make no sparks. If open they might read a few ohms or infinite. if jammed, they will read zero ohms (or maybe .01 ohm. Jim

 

[rustred]

"so why is my tractor eating up starters", cause your putting 12 volts to a 6 volt unit. it hard on everything like the ring gear and bendix . the bendix engages with a hard slam . i have a W4 here with new heavy cables , new 6 volt battery and that little engine spins over good. tryed it with the switch off to see how it spins. with switch on it starts on 2nd crank. worst thing for a starter is a low battery and poor cables as the starter gets hot fast. i dont have any problems starting my 6 volt tractors with 6 volts. all kinds of excuses for using 12 volts on 6 volt systems, but in the end you pay for it.just keep every thing tuned to spec and they start very easy. also the bendix needs to be lubed with oil for proper operation , with good bushings and brushes too. then there is he charging system to worry about too.

 

[Weissman4]

When I jumped across from the battery to the starter with jumper cables it just sparked real bad at the post, but never spinned over.

 

[Weissman4]

Rustered,

I?m not disagreeing with you on this, but most tractors these days have been converted to 12 volts. This tractor isn?t being cranked on hard. I just don?t want to buy a new starter and two cranks later it?s a goner. I need to figure out why these starters are going out so easy.

 

[Grandpa's Fords]

I have to some what agree with Rustred's statement.

all kinds of excuses for using 12 volts on 6 volt systems, but in the end you pay for it.

I had my reasons but there were definitely consequences like the starter Bendix sticking on the ring gear and mine would pop off a half a turn on six volt whereas on 12volt it would have to spin several times to learn I had a weak mag coil that may have lasted for years on 6 volt.

 

[rustred]

i agree to lots out there. so... hook it to 6 volts with good cables and try that.not there so just can presume stuff .

 

[rustred]

is the starter stuck??? see if it will turn over turning the bendix with a screw driver. take it apart and examine the problem. 2 or 3 starters cant be doing the same thing.

 

[Weissman4]

(quoted from post at 10:52:21 12/23/18) is the starter stuck??? see if it will turn over turning the bendix with a screw driver. take it apart and examine the problem. 2 or 3 starters cant be doing the same thing.

Rustred I will pull it off and try it here later or I will try the first one I took off. But I agree with you about having multiple starters doing the same thing. Unfortunately, I have two doing the same thing.

 

[Bob]

(quoted from post at 14:33:40 12/23/18)

(quoted from post at 10:52:21 12/23/18) is the starter stuck??? see if it will turn over turning the bendix with a screw driver. take it apart and examine the problem. 2 or 3 starters cant be doing the same thing.

Rustred I will pull it off and try it here later or I will try the first one I took off. But I agree with you about having multiple starters doing the same thing. Unfortunately, I have two doing the same thing.

I agree on the drive possibly being jammed into the ring gear.

Also, you mention getting quite a spark when trying to "jump" the starter.

It takes good cables, and snapping them on tight, instantly, 'cause if you putter around just touching them to the starter post you'll get SPARK.

On the other hand, if you have starters that suddenly are "dead" and you get no motor action or spark when jumpering them while out of the tractor, a common cause is that the solder joint between the power stud where the cable connects and the HEAVY copper leads from the field coils is cracked loose and there's no connection there.

 

[Weissman4]

Bob,

The last portion of your comment is the issue. I pulled the original starter apart and where the power stud comes into the housing where those copper leads are soldered on are broken/ melted. I’m guessing this is the issue with the starter currently in the tractor as well. The question why is this happening to these starters in this tractor?

 

[kevinj54]

(quoted from post at 17:12:04 12/23/18)
Bob,

The last portion of your comment is the issue. I pulled the original starter apart and where the power stud comes into the housing where those copper leads are soldered on are broken/ melted. I’m guessing this is the issue with the starter currently in the tractor as well. The question why is this happening to these starters in this tractor?

They break because you are letting the stud turn when removing or installing the cable.

 

[kevinj54]

(quoted from post at 11:26:20 12/23/18) All that seems to happen is the solenoid clicks

You have a solenoid on your H???

 

[Weissman4]

Kevin,

The stud never turned when I put the cable on the starter because I made sure it never moved when I tightened it down. Also the first starter was never touched, which is the one I took apart. Yes the tractor has a solenoid up under the gas tank looks like one off of an old ford pickup or something two 5/16 studs (a guess) and two smaller studs.

 

[rustyfarmall]

(quoted from post at 09:52:26 12/23/18) "so why is my tractor eating up starters", cause your putting 12 volts to a 6 volt unit. it hard on everything like the ring gear and bendix . the bendix engages with a hard slam . i have a W4 here with new heavy cables , new 6 volt battery and that little engine spins over good. tryed it with the switch off to see how it spins. with switch on it starts on 2nd crank. worst thing for a starter is a low battery and poor cables as the starter gets hot fast. i dont have any problems starting my 6 volt tractors with 6 volts. all kinds of excuses for using 12 volts on 6 volt systems, but in the end you pay for it.just keep every thing tuned to spec and they start very easy. also the bendix needs to be lubed with oil for proper operation , with good bushings and brushes too. then there is he charging system to worry about too.

I have to disagree. My M was changed to 12 volts LONG before I owned. Still using the original 6 volt starter. Works just fine.

 

[Weissman4]

Rusty,

I agree the Cub, A, B, Super C, M that we own were all converted to 12v way before I was ever around. All these tractors without no issues. Unfortunately, this H is not the same it seems like.

 

[caterpillar guy]

Get that ford relay out of your circut. Go back to the old push stater switch. Sounds like you have a couple problems that were not addressed in the original post. 1 The lack of removed starter working. 2 No mention of the ford relay on it.
The reason for removing the relay is I have to wonder if you have big enough cables for your starter even on 12 volt and if the relay is heavy enough to hold up to the use if you are having to do a lot of starter working for adjustments to things getting the engine tuned and what not. Not being there I can't see all things happening. If you are using light cables like for a lawn mower or such you might not be getting enough juice to the starter.
Since you are having trouble with the removed starter I would look at brushes, commutator,drive ,bushings, and the condition of the bolt coming through the case. I use the nut to test a removed starter so I don't burn the threads from ark.

 

[Grandpa's Fords]

Just for curiosity when the starter fails have you tried to turn the engine over by hand or tried to push or pull start?

 

[Weissman4]

The windings on starter keep burning in two where they connect to the power stud (Battery Cable Stud). See the attached picture.

 

[rustyfarmall]

(quoted from post at 10:47:55 12/24/18) The windings on starter keep burning in two where they connect to the power stud (Battery Cable Stud). See the attached picture.

The stud needs to be held tight so it doesn't turn while you tighten the nut that holds the battery cable. Two wrenches are required.

 

[Weissman4]

I have that part covered. The stud has never moved while putting the cables on.

 

[David G]

I would see if starter is jammed into the ring gear, pretty common.

I got tired of having bad starter buttons and put a solenoid on my H.

Most of the H's have been converted to 12V, many for 40 years or more, the newer starter drive does help.

WOW a lot of nay sayers here on 12V.

 

[David G]

Can you crank engine over by hand?

If not there is an issue there.

 

[Weissman4]

David,

I can get the tractor started. I can somewhat turn the pulleys by hand. Unfortunately, I do not have a hand crank for any of my IH tractors. My father asked the same thing he said maybe the tractor is tight from sighting. I just don’t see how that would make sense though since the engine will start and run good.

 

[David G]

I am not following, it is running now, you are just concerned about this starter?

 

[Weissman4]

Yes the tractor runs but I have gone through two starters in a matter of two weeks!

 

[Weissman4]

I’m just going to tear the starters down and tack them back with silver since it has a higher heat tolerance and go from there.

 

[David G]

That is not a good idea, if it gets that hot, you have a problem and will just melt something else.

 

[Weissman4]

(quoted from post at 15:34:29 12/24/18) That is not a good idea, if it gets that hot, you have a problem and will just melt something else.

David,

That’s what I’m trying to figure out. Why are these melting...

 

[David G]

Are you holding the button in for extended periods?

It is either going to turn right away or not.

 

[Weissman4]

David,

No. This H has a key instead of a push button. I mean do you think the switch is getting caught? Wouldn’t you hear the starter grinding though?

 

[rustred]

it appears then that you have something going on to heat the terminal and melt solder. why not get one fat battery cable and hook it to starter and bypass all that add on stuff. either use the proper push starter switch or just touch the ground cable to the front of starter. with 12 volts that thing will spin like mad. never know what these backyard engineers have going on there. least if you posted a picture of starter and its wiring.