Farmall M won't go into reverse or first

[AHudd3042]

I have taken the gear shifter out already and can see the groove the end of the shifter is supposed to go into in order to shift into first or reverse. It is about an inch away. I was expecting to see it only far enough out of alignment as to not allow the shifter to move over into the slot, but not an inch.
I have chained the clutch pedal down and so far have not been able to align the slot with the other two. I have tried with the clutch in and out. It doesn't seem to move at all. The slot for reverse is towards the back of the tractor from the two that are aligned.
I am wondering just how hard I need to hit it to get it to move into alignment, I don't want to break anything.

1945 M
Thanks

Alex

P.S. I have taken pics but can not post as I have not been a member long enough.

 

[Janicholson]

An inch should be about right for being in reverse. If the engine is running with the clutch pushed, it should go backwards. (be
careful) if it does not move, and the other gears work as normal. there is likely a broken shifter fork or jammed ball/spring
detent. Those would require removing the platform (not real bad, but heavy and involved). If the tractor does move in reverse,
there is hope it can be put back in alignment. Using a small 18 rod or big screw driver the rail should move. It could still be
the detent! Lifting one tire in the air an inch can release pressure on the gear teeth. If the tractor will not move at all, it
may be in 2 gears at once. Jim

 

[used red MN]

With apologies to Jim but he has made a slight
misstatement, he said ..If the engine is running with
the clutch pushed, it should go backwards.. It should
say .. If the engine is running with the clutch pushed,
as you let it up it should go backwards.. Your
title says ..wont go into reverse or first.. but what Jim
is saying is by your description of the shifters it should
currently be stuck in reverse. So the tractor should
now respond as if it is in reverse. If not, you have
something broke in the shifting forks. Did it shift into
gears 2 to 5 before you pulled the shifter? If so when
you did that it should have locked the tractor in two
gears, however by the alignment of the shifters you
described the other gears should be in neutral at this
point. Where is the tractor and what kind of terrain is it
on? Block a wheel and release the brakes if they are
set. This should not really apply pressure to the gears
but you never know. It will take a nearly 2ft long bar to
pop the shifter back to neutral.

 

[AHudd3042]

Thanks for the reply. The tractor will go into the other gears and travel. I can't get the shifter to go into reverse. The shift lever will not go over far enough to push into 1st or reverse.
When this happened I had just dropped the tiller, moved forward in first as I was in a tight spot, back to reverse, then when I went forward it felt like the brake was locked. I then tried to shift into reverse, but the shifter would not go far enough over to go into reverse. I had to then go to second gear and it went forward just like it should.

I had to use my pick-up to drag the front around to get out of the spot I was in. It could have been worse.

I've never been into a transmission on anything before, so this will be a new adventure for me.

I'll try the raising one tire of the ground maneuver tomorrow and see what happens.

Just to be sure I am thinking right, when in neutral, all three of those notches line up.

Thanks again,

Alex

 

[rustred]

It is unclear how u are trying to line up the three shifter
slots. Use a pry bar and just prying on them they move
not that hard. Letting out the clutch with it in reverse
position tractor will still move. Its when u grab another
gear it will stall the engine cause its in 2 gears at once.

 

[rustred]

Reread this and something funny here. If it was stuck in
reverse as u say then u shift into second gear that will
stall the engine when clutch gets let out, not move
tractor as you say. And if u are dragging the tractor with
ur truck it , reverse gear cant be engaged or the engine
would be spinning over backwards. Was the engine
turning ?

 

[AHudd3042]

Thanks for the response.
In response to what Jim said, I figured that was what he meant.

The tractor will move forward in second, third and fourth, however, I did not try to go into fifth. I just can't the shifter to move over far enough to shift into first or reverse.

If I am understanding what I am looking at, it does look like it is in reverse, but from the position of the slot for neutral I don't see how the shifter lever could have come out of that position in order for the tractor to be put into any of the other forward gears and travel.

I am going to try to contact a mod to see if they will allow me to post a pic.

The tractor is sitting on level ground.

Alex

 

[AHudd3042]

(quoted from post at 13:34:49 12/12/21) Reread this and something funny here. If it was stuck in
reverse as u say then u shift into second gear that will
stall the engine when clutch gets let out, not move
tractor as you say. And if u are dragging the tractor with
ur truck it , reverse gear cant be engaged or the engine
would be spinning over backwards. Was the engine
turning ?

The tractor is not stuck in reverse, the shifter will not move over far enough to go into reverse or first.

I had to drag the front of the tractor over because I didn't have enough room to make the turn to get out of the tight spot I was in without being able to go into reverse. I got myself in a tight spot and couldn't get out without reverse.

Alex

 

[AHudd3042]

(quoted from post at 13:23:43 12/12/21) It is unclear how u are trying to line up the three shifter
slots. Use a pry bar and just prying on them they move
not that hard. Letting out the clutch with it in reverse
position tractor will still move. Its when u grab another
gear it will stall the engine cause its in 2 gears at once.

I have been trying to line up the three, what I am calling the neutral slots, (I don't know the correct name) I even made a bar to fit into the slot so I could get a good whack at it. I didn't want to hit it too hard and risk causing more damage in the process.

I have been wondering how hard it should be to move. Thanks for letting me know.

Alex

 

[Janicholson]

Thanks my intent here was to make sure the tractor was not going to move when started. Letting the clutch pedal out was missing from my statement. If it drives in 2-3-4 and probably 5, the top will need to come off. It is not stuck in 2 gears, it has a broken R-1 shifter fork (opinion) Jim

 

[AHudd3042]

I have been trying to find info to post pics, but can't find any. Must have been on a different tractor BB site I was thinking of joining.

Looks like I've got a job to do.

Thanks,
Alex

 

[Dave41A]

The R/1 shifter rail, as you look down in the shifter hole, will be on the right side. If the notch for the shift lever is back, then the shifter rail is in reverse.

The rail should slide forward without too much difficulty. All that needs to be overcome is the force of the rail detent, which is a 1/2 inch diameter spring-loaded ball bearing. You should be able to manage this with a large slot-head screwdriver.

Were you attempting to go uphill at all when you were shifting and this occurred? For me, the R/1 detent spring was broken, and the rail would slide back on its own if pointed uphill.

If the R/1 shifter rail is not lined up with the other rails, and doesn't want to move, I suspect a jammed detent. Try shifting the other two rails in and out of gear with the screwdriver to get a sense of how much they should travel and how much force to apply. Repairing the detents requires taking the cover off the transmission. It is doable if you have a chain hoist or a couple of strong helpers.
You are probably very close to being in two gears at once.

The end of the shifter lever can also become worn and skip out of the notch, especially if the shifter lever pivot pin is worn. The lever can be built back up with weld and filed or ground back to close to the original profile.

I think you can post pictures after you've had 5 posts. Dave

 

[rustred]

with a bar in there you can move them back and forth as easily as with the gear stick shift. put a bar in there and pry forward using the
housing by prying back. if that dont move it something is jammed up. plus if you shift the other two you will see they move qite easily.

 

[rustred]

this is getting confusing... first u said the three shift rails are not lined up , that 1st and reverse rail is lower. now your saying the
shifter will not move over far enough to get to reverse. ok i think i got it now the shifter jumped out of the 1st reverse rail and no it
wont go back there till the three notches are in line in a square in the middle of the shifter hole.

 

[used red MN]

I fear you have something more of an issue than just a
shifter out of place. If the shifter notch on the right is
back compared to the others and it is not trying to
drive the tractor backwards when the engine is running
and the clutch is out something is amiss. I am not 100
percent sure but I think the gear sliding on the shaft
cannot be pushed farther so that is what stops
movement of the shift lever. There may be an actual
stop in the mechanism but I am not sure, maybe
Dave41A or someone knows that for sure. Yes, all three
shift ..quadrants.. as I like to call them should line up
for neutral. As for posting photos you now have 6
posts so in the past that is the magic number to allow
posting pictures. Pictures are added through the
..Choose files.. button in the ..Advanced Posting.. area
at the bottom of a New Post or a reply. If the
conclusion is that the lid has to come off you could pull
the belt pulley off ..or plate 19 in the diagram below if
the tractor is not equipped with one.. and look back
with a mirror to see what the problem maybe. That has
to come off anyway to pull the top. You may be aware
of this but you can view all the parts diagrams for your
tractor at the CNHI online parts site. In the link select
section 219. Clicking the back arrow by ..Farmall M-
tractor.. will get you to the other parts sections like
Engine. Also if viewing on a phone there may be a
more pages of subsections as is the case for the
..Chassis.. section, clicking the arrow at the bottom will
take you to it if more are available, the number of
available pages are shown on a PC but not on a phone.
CNHI Farmall M parts diagrams

 

[AHudd3042]

(quoted from post at 14:48:23 12/12/21) The R/1 shifter rail, as you look down in the shifter hole, will be on the right side. If the notch for the shift lever is back, then the shifter rail is in reverse.

The rail should slide forward without too much difficulty. All that needs to be overcome is the force of the rail detent, which is a 1/2 inch diameter spring-loaded ball bearing. You should be able to manage this with a large slot-head screwdriver.

Were you attempting to go uphill at all when you were shifting and this occurred? For me, the R/1 detent spring was broken, and the rail would slide back on its own if pointed uphill.

If the R/1 shifter rail is not lined up with the other rails, and doesn't want to move, I suspect a jammed detent. Try shifting the other two rails in and out of gear with the screwdriver to get a sense of how much they should travel and how much force to apply. Repairing the detents requires taking the cover off the transmission. It is doable if you have a chain hoist or a couple of strong helpers.
You are probably very close to being in two gears at once.

The end of the shifter lever can also become worn and skip out of the notch, especially if the shifter lever pivot pin is worn. The lever can be built back up with weld and filed or ground back to close to the original profile.

I think you can post pictures after you've had 5 posts. Dave

Yes, the right side is what I'm looking at and yes it is to the back.

I can't get it to move at all. I have a piece of half inch rebar I filed down to fit. I bent the rebar.

All this happened on level ground. I know some people don't always use the clutch to shift but I do. The tractor did briefly feel as though the brakes were on when I went into first gear, so I stopped, went to neutral, checked the brake lock by pressing the pedals and tried to unsuccessfully shift into reverse and then shifted into first and everything seemed fine except I still couldn't get into reverse. This tractor has been a real workhorse. I have plowed, tilled, mowed, raked hay and skid logs up and down hills. I feel blessed it happened after dropping the tiller, not in the woods with the log splitter on the back.

The end of the shifter lever looks pretty good, but I suspect it has been repaired, it looks like it has brass braised onto it and ground down.

I didn't think about shifting the others to get a feel for it.

Thanks, Alex[/b]

 

[AHudd3042]

Yes, I think we are on the same page now. Sorry for the confusion, I am trying to describe something I know nothing about and I don't know which details are relevant, but if everyone will bear with me I'd appreciate it.

I have rebuilt two Chevy engines, but never a transmission.

Thanks,
Alex

 

[AHudd3042]

Thanks for that great info.

I am on a brand new PC so it will be easier to view. I haven't even downloaded any photos to it from my phone. Too many new skills to learn while trying to work on an old tractor. This is part of the modern world I can embrace, it just takes a while to soak in.

To everyone here that is helping me, thank you and don't hesitate to tell me if I am missing the point.

I've critters to put to bed, so I'm signing off for the night and I will see if I can get a picture up in the early AM.

Thanks,

Alex

 

[rustred]

they have detents , like balls that fall in a hole to hold the shifter in place. so it has to be something to do with that plus you will feel the shifter lock in when they are moved, even have a click to them when moving them.

 

[AHudd3042]

The right side of the photo is towards the back of the tractor.

It looks pretty rough in there. When I first got the tractor I changed all the fluids, but it was almost all water in the transmission.

Thanks, Alex

This post was edited by AHudd3042 on 12/12/2021 at 07:38 pm.

 

[used red MN]

The notch you see with the round bottom it not the
notch for the gear shift. Web search.. IH 52093DXB
that is the part number for the 1st and reverse shift
fork. The result for should have a picture of it offered
by a company that starts with a W. This site does not
allow links to competitor tractor parts sellers. If you
find the photo you will see the square notch in the end
is for the shifter and the three round bottom notches
are for the spring detents in the 3 positions. Unless
someone chimes in otherwise I do not think it can
come that far out of position without the fork being
broke unfortunately. I am attaching a link to the
alternate parts diagram I got the part number from. At
some point IH removed some of the part numbers from
there listings that they no longer had available.
However this does not mean that all the PN shown on
the CNHI site are available, quite to the contrary on
these older machines.
Alternate parts diagram

 

[rustred]

ok now i see the problem. that reverse shift rail is slide back way too far out of the 3 detents where that round hole is. should be 3
detents, one for neutral in the middle and one ahead and back for low and reverse. that is what holds it in gear. so that is why you cant
push it ahead cause the ball or poppet which is sitting too low and you cant force the poppet back up by sliding the shift rail. now you
need to pull the top and remove the guides on each ends of the rails and get the rail back to neutral. plus clean out that rust its a mess
in there. see how simple a picture makes things.

 

[AHudd3042]

Sorry for the delay responding, our internet service can be generously described as spotty.

I'm getting a better picture in my head about how this works.

I probably won't tear into this very soon, depending on the weather and etc. Hopefully next week, if I can get the parts

Does anyone have any suggestions what else I should do while I have the top off?

Thanks,

Alex

 

[AHudd3042]

With looking at pics and listening to what everyone is telling me I am beginning to understand how this works.

They say a picture is worth a thousand words.

Under that plug where the gear oil is added it looks pretty clean. Some of the gunk we see in the pic fell in while removing the shifter, old grease was caked in there pretty thick. I am wondering if the gear oil is not getting to those shift forks causing all that rust.

When I get that top off I'm sure I will have many questions when I can actually see the parts and photograph them.

Thanks again,

Alex

Thanks,

Alex

 

[rustred]

i found a picture from my 560-660 tractors. your farmall is basically the same set up. i also agree the shifter could be broken also, as i
dont think the the first and reverse gear can slide that far back on the shaft.

 

[Dave41A]

A picture is worth 1000 words indeed. The shifter rail & fork is way out of position. I hope it is simply a case of a broken and jammed detent. The fork itself may be broken off the rail.

When the top if off, at a minimum you will want to put all new detent springs and balls in place. I used standard hardware store ball bearings for the balls (1/2 inch diameter), and Grainger part 54MX80 for the springs. This is a 10-pack of 0.42 x 2 inch springs of the proper stiffness. There are 4 springs total in the tractor, so you will end up with 6 spares. I still have mine somewhere. I could probably send you 4 if you were interested, assuming I can find them.

I would drain the oil when the top is off and look at what is at the bottom. If you find broken bits of things (which is common), post pictures of them here, and someone will help ID what they came from.

The skills for rebuilding a transmission are similar as for an engine. The big thing to remember is that the various bearings are put in place with shims in appropriate places. You have to be careful to put these back where they belong.

There are other more experienced transmission rebuilders here who will offer better advice than I can when you get to that point, but I'll offer what I know. This transmission has what looks like two shafts but is really three. The lower is the 'countershaft' and is continuously driven. The input shaft is stubby and goes from the clutch shaft to a constant mesh gear that drives the countershaft. The bearings at this end of the input shaft and the countershaft take a lot of sideways load and after 80 years will show some wear. The output shaft is the back part of the upper shaft and its front end rides inside the input shaft. There's a delicate pilot bearing where the transmission output shaft rides inside the end of the input shaft. With that much water and rust in the transmission that bearing should be looked at, too. If you see final drive damage you'll want a manual as there is a method to removing the bull gears and pinions without damage.

I don't know where you live but if you don't need the tractor for snow, winter is a good time for jobs like this.
Happy wrench turning. Dave

 

[AHudd3042]

Thanks Dave for all that, especially the part #s. I have bee bookmarking all the parts ya'll are giving me.

I live in the Ouchita Mountains of Arkansas where we have a little snow and some bad weather, but plenty of good working days.

I use this tractor in the woods a lot, so I built a heavy duty cage to protect myself from falling limbs and such. I think I can hook my chain hoist on it to pull the top off.

Good thing about these cameras and computers is not having to wait for photos to be developed or the expense. I'll take lots of photos of each step. It makes it a lot easier to put something back together.

I need to replace the clutch pressure plates and rear wheel bearings and seals. I may go ahead and do it all while it is down.

Thanks again,

Alex