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Farming, death, having the talk, and how to proceed forw

T

T-Nason

Member
Going through a rough time after losing grandpa. Things havent been right since in the family. Im kinda caught in the middle of my surviving grandmother and parents. Grandma is renting the farm out, which honestly stung a lot. Ive been on the place since I was born and working it since I was able (25 now). It feels weird, almost like a stranger on your own fields now. Ive tried to approach my grandmother about renting it myself earlier this season or buying it out piece by piece but I was refused on the pretext Im to busy to mess with farming.
My question, how have you gone forward if youve been in a similar situation? I would love to continue this farm as Im the 6th generation. But it doesnt feel like theres a family anymore. I love these people but its just driving me nuts. For what its worth, I was an only child, my mother was an only, and there is no siblings on my grandmothers or grandfathers side with any interest.
 
That's a tough one. I rented my farm out 2 years ago. Last fall I liked watching my renter working my farm. 2 months ago I caught co vid. Since then I get very emotional. I will cry over the slightest thing. So this fall 2 weeks ago when I saw my renter combining I felt angry. Get the hell out of my field. I know my emotions have a different source then yours but you like me have to concentrate on how to overcome them. Concentrate on your day job. Do you have a space where you can plant a large garden next spring and start planning for that. Are there some meadows near by or some nice big hyway ditches that you can get some hay equip. and bale some hay? When one door closes another will open but it won't open by itself. Often times you have to push it open. Good luck.
 
Well, I'm thinking there is alot to your story that got left untold.

I'm under the impression that your grandfather farmed. Your parents are (if not retired) doing something other than farming. And you helped your grandfather out, when he was alive and still farming. Is that the case? If not, you might want to clarify some of those details.

Helping someone out, and doing it entirely on your own is two totally different things. In more ways than one. Not just the work part of it either. From what you wrote, I'm sure your wanting and capable of doing the work part. But there is also a financial part of it too. What your grandfather was doing, and what your wanting to do, is pretty different when it comes to the financial part of it.
Let's just say your grandfather owned his farm, and it was payed for (no longer financed). And if you step in and go from there, you will be paying cash rent or farming on shares (grandmother still owns property). So you will have to turn a bigger profit margin than what your grandfather was doing, to make it work. Especially if you are not farming any other ground of your own.
If your going to farm this with grandfather's equipment, then that's a whole nother aspect. Grandpa may very well of not kept his equipment updated, knowing that his days were coming to an end. It is very expensive to buy new or newer equipment if you have to do any updating.

Anyways, on top of all of that, you'd still have to convince your parents and grandma to let you do it. Let you be the renter. It might not be that they don't want you to do it. It might be that they are seeing all the things that I am throwing out there. And don't think it's feasible for you to try it.

It's tuff to get into farming this day and age. Especially from scratch and starting out with nothing. Some people just fall right into it by inheriting. Unfortunately for you, your parents are in the middle of this happening. Because they will inherit before you do. And that is, if nobody decides to sale out in the mean time.

I don't know enough of your story to give you advice. So I just throwed some things out there for ya to think about.
 
Your grandmother has an established business relationship with her tenant. He probably has a multi-year lease that she can't easily break. And I'll bet he is paying a cash lease that she relies on. Now you come along and ask her to break her lease. You may think you're capable of running the farm and making a profit at it, but can you? How will you acquire the equipment you need? Will you rent for cash or shares? If it's the former, where will you come up with the first rent payment?

As long as your grandmother is alive, you have no claim to rent her property. And when she passes, it's still up to your mom to decide whether or not to rent it to you. Also, note that there may be some factors in your grandmother's decision of which you're unaware. She may not even own the property anymore; she could have sold it with a 'life estate', meaning she gets to live on it until she passes but the farmland is not hers to rent out.
 
I was the youngest of 5 kids, and wanted to farm. My folks didnt want any of us kids to farm, because its a hard way to make a dollar. Dad was the only son, of a oldest son, while my grandfather had to buy out one brothers half, my dad got it all in inheritance. And dad made it clear it was his, not ours and he would do with the farm as he saw fit. He eventually sold one piece to one of my brothers, and when dad passed his will stated the farm was to be sold and money diverted equally among the 5 of us, very fair. I started renting the neighbours farm next door and milking cows when I was 20, Dad was still running some beef cows at his place. I rented several other smaller farms after eventually buying the farm next door to my Dad. My Dad told me when he was 68, that he was going to quit farming and if I wanted I could rent his place, and I did. Knowing full well that I could never buy the old home place, I started looking for a bigger and better farm to move to, and I did just that, when I was 43. Is continued renting dads place, even though I moved 25 miles away. After mom and dad had both passed and the farm sold, the new owner wanted me to continue on renting so I have. The farm was in the family for 103 years, and I have been the tenant farmer now for the past 36 years.
My point in telling you this is, its only real estate, just dirt. What happened there before with family living there for many generations wont put groceries on the table, or shoes on your kids feet. If you want to farm , and your family has different ideas about how to manage your Grandpas farm, go rent some other farm, and prove yourself. Who knows, maybe your mom and dad are looking at the old farm as a pile of cash to fund their retirement, and thats their right, if they in fact dont spend it all looking after Grandma. There is only ever so much value that can be rung out of a farm, maybe Grandma needs top value cash rent just to continue on living.
 


It appears that you are looking at your grandmother's thinking as being negative towards you. It could actually be the opposite. It is very likely that the renter already had a degree of a relationship with her and after your grandfather's passing he came along with a good sweet talk and package to offer her that could enable her to allow the change to just "happen" without her having to worry about a mountain of details. Keep working on a plan with an emphasis on putting yourself in her shoes.
 
I find my family much more tolerable since I moved 2000 miles away. Doing business with family is some of the hardest business to be done.
 
Without reading the replies but based on the probable age I expect quite a number of people to go on the defensive where your grandmother is concerned. Further, even if it is family they are prone to any degree of irrational thought including envy and jealousy. This was a problem in my family as my uncle when living became almost livid when any discussion of me running family land came up. It got back to me that if his mother passed the house that would have been left to him of which I now live in would have been off limits to me. Did I borrow money from him and never pay it back? No. Did I say anything insulting concerning him among strangers in town? No. The man was simply jealous that I had an opportunity that in his mind he felt cheated out of. While it is possible that your grandmother has justified concerns regarding your coming in it is just as likely her decision is purely emotional. She may not be able to stand the thought of anybody else running the farm other than your husband. Don't look for logic where there may not be any.
 
At least your dad was straight with you when you were young. Many boys get the message while young that the place will be theirs at some point only to have that never come to be.
 
Many good comments Mark.
If grandpa wanted a farm to remain in the family, he would have set up an LLC.
 
The bottom line is, it's her farm to do with as she pleases. Years from now you may think differently.

I went through the same thing. In 1978, when my father-in-law was diagnosed with terminal cancer and it was obvious he could no longer farm, I was waiting in the wings assuming I'd have a chance to take over his operation. I didn't. He simply announced one day that he'd leased the farm to a neighbor. To say I was disappointed was an understatement.

Then, along came the financial downturn of the mid 1980's when farmers went under right and left. Being in the early years of my own operation, it's possible I wouldn't have survived.

As I said on another thread, 'life goes on'.
 
Only the OP and his grandmother know the intimate details as to promises made. Yes, she ultimately has the right to do as she pleases as long as she has not gone against her word with the OP. This is not to say that if there is warranted concern as to the OP being able to manage things that it would be wise to rent to somebody else.
 
Many people are poor planners for the future. We don't know what intent was there for the OP by grandpa. Planning for the future is perhaps the most important aspect of farm management and is a reason the topic is addressed in many classes at universities such as Cornell.
 
From living and working on the family farm that has been in the family and worked by family for well over 200 yrs, I noticed another change in atmosphere here when each grandparents passing come to be. Each time it was like the passing of a legendary guard so to speak and the train of thought of the way things should be could waiver slightly. I have seen it before locally where the grandkids really wanted to farm the homeplace, but were denied till way later on after they had bought or rented more land and equipment which proved they were serious about they're desires to tend it. Ultimately they are farming it now. At the time they both had excellent jobs off of the farm and were busy which may have suaded the grandparents to shy away from letting it initially proceed upon 1st discussion of it. This possibly could be a same case situation you have that comes to mind locally. If you are serious about farming, can you buy or rent another tract of land in the meantime to more or less prove yourself that you have the desire and are serious about it ? There are 2 things that will cross up a family farm and that is money and land. In your case you sound like you're dealing with both devils. Working with family on a farm whether it's strictly business or in general labor wise can be tough. I've worked alongside my dad and grandparents on this one since I could walk and I'm 42 now. I wish you luck and maybe after the initial shock of your grandaddy's passing, the idea of you renting or buying the farm will warm up to those who are in charge.
 
> Many good comments Mark. If grandpa wanted a farm to remain in the family, he would have set up an LLC.

Keeping a farm in the family is not an easy thing to do. It requires planning, and probably the assistance of an attorney. If gramma and grandpa didn't do some planning well in advance of his death, there's a good chance the farm won't pass on to their heirs.
 
I don't know what anybody can say to make you feel any better, myself included. I'm sure you needed to vent. Things evolve and change. One of the larger operations around here started with a guy working full time in a factory and farming little scattered odd corners and pieces that nobody else wanted. That operation is in its second generation now and running a lot of big new stuff. You could try that. Find those little places that nobody else will bother with.

Ask straight out how long of a lease the renter has on your grandmother's. Don't drive yourself crazy wondering. If you get started on some other pieces of ground, maybe by the time one or two leases have come and gone, you can get it back. Not making any judgments, but playing off what Flyingbelgian was telling, is it that you really want to farm, or that you just want to farm THAT farm?
 
As an attorney, who although being semi retired, still practices Estate Planning IVE SEEN THESE ISSUES SEVERAL TIMES.

Of course as you already know, it's the land owners decision to do with THEIR property as they so choose like it or not.....PROVIDED he or she is competent and no Guardians, Caretakers or POA's acting as a fiduciary have authority or reason to act otherwise in his or her best interest.....

Kindness and communication may or may not work but its likely your only recourse versus a bunch of feuding and family fights

Best wishes

John T
 
Around here rental acres are paid for up front due to urban encroachment resulting in fierce competition. There are few leases longer than 1 season. One way that might reveal your grandmothers reason for refusal is find out what she is getting now, then offer her that amount as soon as the guys crops are off, or at some point before he has a chance to renew the lease. Perhaps granny thinks you want to pay her when you get a check from the elevator, and privately thinking what if you get weather-struck before harvest... paying her up front will prove to her that you are serious. But ultimately, she really doesnt need a reason to refuse you.
 
She's undoubtedly at the stage of the game where she needs to look out for herself, and not her grandson. She may have a cash lease that her grandson couldn't match.
 
This is why a person should be using crop insurance. If crop insurance does not pencil out then chances are margins are too tight to buy the ground if need be.
 
Its a share crop deal set up. 50% split of the grain. This has just happened this year for next year. I farmed it over the past 5 years when grandpa started getting sick and wasnt able to help much.
 
Usually, when people come on here they are sincere in their story. If the OP is looking for a way to con his grandmother he is not going to find help on boards like this one and knows it. Nobody said that the grandmother has an IMPLIED obligation to help family. My concern is that all parties in this matter have been open as to intentions. It should be said that intentions are not always paramount if somebody cannot fulfill their commitment. Possible that the grandson can't pay what grandmother needs to live on or cannot secure money needed to farm with. Also possible the grandson has been strung along.
 
Does grandma love, tolerate, or hate yer asp?
That is another factor.
Maybe she doesn't desire to see you tied to the land breaking yer asp trying to make a go of it.
Maybe, just maybe, you should sit your asp down and talk to her.

I have a small patch of dirt that is worth more than either kid will probably be ever to afford to buy it.
Maybe she desires to sell it off and split the proceeds. You going to offer to buy out the relatives?

Your looking at the problem from a YOU perspective. Not her's.
 
John, you are the first lawyer to use the phrase provided he or she is competent. I put part of that sentence in quotes but for some reason they don't make it into the post as of late. Anyways, people including myself when having a talk with the lawyer have never heard that statement when it came to the question of competency. Usually, it is they can leave a million dollars to a can of beans held by a hobo in the street. When the inevitable poverty hits then the affected party will qualify for public assistance.
 
Cash rents don't last forever. Use the time to grieve your grandparent properly and allow others in the family to do the same. Worry about farming later. When it's time to talk about it, keep in mind your grandmother may need the income from top-dollar rent.
 
First of all, it is great that you were able to work with your grandfather by helping him farm. It was probably a great time for the both of you. Few people get an opportunity to do something like that today. Those are memories you will keep and enjoy for the rest of your life.

Tell us about your present career situation. Trying to continue farming on the side can limit the time available to work overtime, to travel for work, or to take night classes to improve your skills. Those limits can hinder advancement in some careers. Being stretched too thin for both time and money can also be extremely hard on a marriage.

Have you crunched the numbers to determine if farming will pay you an adequate income or even a adequate wage for your time? Are you interested in diversifying into new crops and new markets to improve the farm income. Talk to your banker about what kind of capital you will need to have on hand to get started. Share crop rents are almost unheard of in the corn belt anymore. $300/acre cash rent and $10,000/acre farmland prices can be difficult to pay off when the weather is poor. Some accounting and finance skills can go a long way in making farming profitable.

Can you get started farming without help from your family so you can build up experience and a nest egg to purchase a farm in the future? Plan that you won't be able to hire unskilled labor and that you will need to pay what seems like top dollar for farm services. Most people are quick to realize that they will never get rich working for a farmer without a skilled trade.

Good luck, have some fun planning your options.
 
The poster's mother and father are the next people in line to inherit the farm and will also be the likely ones to care for the grandmother as she ages. They may have other intentions for for the farm including using it to pay for the grandmother's care. I would talk things over in depth with the parents before approaching the grandmother.
 
Yep its a term used in legal circles where Powers of Attorney or some legal documments are concerned. To execute a Will or POA etc or provide some testimony the person must be COMPETENT to do so and render it legally enforceable

Nice chatting with you

John T BSEE,JD
 
That does kind of change the flavor of things doesn't it. I knew a guy who's own mother did that to him after his dad passed away. They'd been farming together for years. It never ends with peace in the family.
 
The person in question for me as well as the grandmother for the OP is living. I am told at least here in NY competency is defined very broadly. POA coming into play to head off a bad decision financially or legally is extremely difficult to pull off at least here in NY. A person can have POA but yet be forced to let the subject of POA make ruinous decisions. I have POA for my dad but that just amounts to a place the funeral home can look for his final expenses and not much more.
 
I've seen it more than once younger person is lead to believe if they help the father or grandfather then the farming operation will be passed on to them. Then when the time comes it doesn't happen.
 
Im not looking to con my grandmother. Im seeking advice on how to approach these hard conversations from those who have been there before.
 
Just don't do what a guy in a similar situation did here thirty years or so ago. He shot and killed the renter.
 
The lawyers job is to use and consider competency for LEGAL purposes, however, they are not doctors and thats a medical decision if and when it ever becomes necessary. The person who appoints a POA must be competent at the time, but if the POA is DURABLE it survives subsequent incompetency yet is revocable anytime prior. In cases of dispute or if competency is an issue it may require a GUARDIANSHIP instead of a POA. The POA is a fiduciary and must act in best interest NOT self serving. The POA dies when the principal does, in general the POA is not liable for just debts before or after death, thats when estate and probate law kicks in. People all the time come to me when mom dies claiming they were her POA thinking they can do this and that I tell them NOOOOOOOOOO thats over n done and when they go to the bank wanting to do this or that the bank educates them very quickly lol.....In Indiana (subject to how the account was set up) they need to be appointed Personal Representative (Executor) by the Court plus obtain an Estate Tax Number before the bank will let them get anywhere near the decedents funds

Best wishes NUFF SAID

John T Country Lawyer
 
I believe in you. As to how to start the conversation there are as many answers as there are stones in the driveway as my grandmother used to say. There is so much we do not know about your family and I would hate to inadvertently give bad advice. For what it is worth the same grandmother who I mentioned before pertaining to my uncle never wanted to have any conversation if things went in a way that the will did not cover. Also, my family is big on controlling others so she was not going to budge from the will because she thought that was the best way to keep people under her thumb. Long story made short things never worked out that way. She went into a nursing home and her assets were gone in a year. She thought people such as myself were going to go to the home as she needed but failed to realize that employers could care less about family obligations. In the end the stubbornness by my grandmother and uncle did not accomplish a thing. Just generated a lot of talk by people who never liked the family that my family would find a way to screw up holding that ground.
 
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