Ford 860 Hydraulics

[DaveDor]

Suspect have a hydraulic pump in need of overhaul - still working through the troubleshooting tree in the shop manual.

Have no concerns about rebuilding the pump myself, but can't find some of the special tools needed. Any Ideas on where to find them?

Now the item that really puzzles me - the Selector Lever. Everything I read tells me that this control lever is supposed to operate in two positions: 1. horizontal (position control), 2. down - draft control. However on this tractor the two positions are up and horizontal.

As my hydraulics are not working now, I don't know if this is a problem, but is something assembled improperly or ... do I have a mix of tractor parts from another unit?

 

[James Walker]

Call David Essick at: 336-841-5377. He is in High Point, NC. He can tell you what to do.
He fixed my 961 by adjusting & rebuilding the hyd. system under the seat. My pump was OK.

 

[Kurt-NEPA]

I rebuilt the piston pump on my 660 without any special tools. Just get resourceful. I did need a press to press the new bearing on the wobble shaft.

What's your problem with the hydraulics? Maybe we can help you diagnose it. A number of us have been down this road before. Don't starting taking things apart until you have a very good idea of whats wrong.

 

[DaveDor]

When start tractor has no lift. After it runs for 10 - 15 minutes I can get the arms to come up, but it isn"t fast or consistent. Arms when put down are slow and may or may not come back up immediately.
Have changed the oil to that recommended by the local Ford/New Holland dealer.
Pump appears to have a prime, so I need to get a pressure gauge to test pump out put.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 10:02:44 01/03/12) When start tractor has no lift. After it runs for 10 - 15 minutes I can get the arms to come up, but it isn"t fast or consistent. Arms when put down are slow and may or may not come back up immediately.
Have changed the oil to that recommended by the local Ford/New Holland dealer.
Pump appears to have a prime, so I need to get a pressure gauge to test pump out put.

his system is gravity down, therefore it should drop just as fast/slow whether engine is running or not. To lower, all you are doing is opening a valve, with your movement of the touch control lever, in order to dump the oil from the lift cylinder.

 

[Kurt-NEPA]

Sounds a bit like a prime problem to me. You say the prime appears to be OK. How did you check it?.

I'm assuming you have a piston pump. If its a square vane pump post back.

A pump with poor prime will do just what you say. Most likely the cause of poor prime is suction side leak. Either a leaking O-ring on the trans to pump manifold or a leaking seal on the pump shaft. I usually bet on the seal.

A good way to check is to go to the hardware store and get some fittings and some clear vinyl tubing. Come out of the pump priming hole into an ell and then into a ball valve. Adapt to clear tubing and run the tubing back to the hyd sump fill hole. Close the valve. Start the tractor. Then slowly open the valve. Oil will route back to the sump. If you see air bubbles in the oil you have a prime problem. Run it a bit, close the valve, and see if he lift works better

Make sure you have a hose clamp on the tubing to valve adapter.

Its worth a few bucks to check it out. A lot of people have run their tractor for quite a while - at least until they fix the problem. For me, this method got me though winter weather until the spring, when I replace the pump shaft seal.

 

[DaveDor]

Kurt,

Thanks for the info. I had just removed the bleed plug and it squirted oil when I turned over the engine.

Will do the set up you describe and see what happens.

 

[Sean in PA]

I don't know why, but some old Ford tractors have the position/draft control lever the way the book describes with the upper position horizontal and the lower position pointing down, and others have them like yours with the upper position pointing up and the lower position horizontal. As long as it switches properly between position control mode and draft control mode, I wouldn't worry about it. Perhaps a previous owner removed the lever and put it back on improperly.

 

[Kurt-NEPA]

Dave,

My pump was doing what you described. Prime looked good with the plug out, but the lift was erratic. I put the vinyl tube on and you could see the bubbles in it. I ran it a bit until the bubble seemed to clear. Then closed the valve and my lift was much better. Once the tractor sat overnight I was back to the same old problem.

Also, on you position/draft lever. When I got my tractor my lever was up just like yours. I seemed to work fine there or in the horizontal position. When I had the top cover off, I found the problem, it was me. I was not pushing the lever down hard enough to overcome the spring on the linkage. It was much stiffer than I expected. BTW my lever will still go up vertical, but also goes horizontal and down vertical. Up vertical does the same as horizontal. Hope that made sense.

Keep us posted.

 

[Harry C.]

edited for clarity...

Dave, I have the same air problem. I can't help you much, but I remember someone talking about the gasket on the 'Lift Sump Cover plate' of the hydraulic reservoir (the center housing), being a possible problem. It can allow air to be drawn into the fluid, requiring repetitive bleeding.

Needless to say, it's likely that a drip would form around the plate if the air leak were here.

(I appreciate your suggestion Kurt, to get through the winter...)

 

[DaveDor]

Wow. Did the bypass as you suggested and I have a steady stream of bubbles. No chance of possibly bleeding them out. Which seals would you recommend replacing? Guess could do all three, I.E., the manifold to transmission, manifold to pump and the internal pump seal.

You were correct on that draft control, I just needed to get firm with it - it does in fact go down!

 

[Kurt-NEPA]

Just what I thought you might find Dave. Fun watching the bubbles go by isn't it. But a least now you know you have suction side leak. If you let it run for a bit, the bubbles might get down to something usable and let the lift work.

At this point Dave, I think you will find the main pump seal is gone. Usually the shaft is worn too - right where it runs on the seal. You can try the manifold to pump washers first if you like, but I doubt that's going to work. I see a pump rebuild in your future.

Now comes the hard part. What to figure on buying. How far do you want to go? For me, I would do almost a full pump rebuild. Get the rebuild kit, a new wobble shaft, needle bearings and shaft bearing cup and cone. There is a bunch of check balls and springs inside the pump that are cheap to replace and come in the kit. The kit usually has the seal and gaskets. I would leave the ball seats alone unless they are shot. Mine weren't

A rebuild it a bit tricky. Getting the seal out means pulling the shaft bearing cup. You need to get inventive with what you have. Running a weld bead around the cup usually gets it so you can pull it. Now the seal and needle bearing are toast.

Do you have a press? You will need to press the new cup back in the housing and also a new bearing on the wobble shaft.

Fun. The other alternative is to pull the pump and let your dealer do it. Gets pricey.

Email me and I'll send a pump document that shows the process, but with special tools. You can do this without the special tools - I did.

My Email is open on the modern side

Kurt

 

[Kurt-NEPA]

Dave,

Did you get the file I emailed to you? It was a bit large, sometimes they don't get through.

Kurt

 

[DaveDor]

Kurt,

Received file just fine, thanks. Test setup revealed a major air leak, so disassembled the pump and there is a "beautiful"groove worn in the shaft where the seal contacts it. Ordering parts next week for the rebuild and hope to have tractor up in a few weeks.

Dave

 

[Kurt-NEPA]

My pump had a groove in the shaft also. I think the groove is what caused the air leak. Time for a new wobble shaft along with the bearings and rebuild kit.

Have fun. Let me know if I can help.

Kurt

 

[DaveDor]

Update

Took longer than planned, but $115 in parts / $45 in labor at a machine shop to press out the old bearings and seal. The pump is now ready to install. Will try to do that today weather permitting and see if there are any other problems.

 

[Kurt-NEPA]

Thanks for the update Dave, Keep us posted.

Kurt

 

[DaveDor]

My how time gets away!

With the rebuilt pump in place the system now has pressure, in fact I have been using it although the lift isn't working properly.

I've held off pulling the Lift Cover for fear I'd run into bigger problems than just adjustments needed. Well, yesterday I pulled the cover to try adjusting the draft & position controls.

Ran out of threads to do the Draft adjustment, still need another .08" to meet the max setting. Attempted the Position adjustment and found it to be a full .35" too wide. I can adjust it to spec's however the valve will bottom out with the Lift Control Handle half way up.

Me thinks there are bent or very worn parts here. Ouch $$$$

 

[Kurt-NEPA]

What does the cam follower pin look like? If its worn, it will cause some strange adjustment issues. If the pin shows any wear, I would replace it before trying anything else.

 

[DaveDor]

Cam follower pin looks fine

I'm wondering what would have put the Position Control over a 1/4" out of adjustment? Of Course I can't adjust the draft position , so something some where isn't what it should be and I don't believe the position control is working properly with the adjustment I did.

 

[Kurt-NEPA]

Your linkage looks OK in your picture, but its hard to tell if its worn. It seems to me that for the adjustment to be that far off, something has to be broken, bent, or missing.

Zane Sherman sells a nice manual on adjusting the hundred series top cover. He's a wealth of knowledge too. Might be worth contacting him.

Zane's web page
http://pwp.att.net/p/s/community.dll?ep=16&groupid=220626&ck=

 

[DaveDor]

I'll do that

 

[DaveDor]

Haven't taken anything apart yet, but after a closer inspection I discovered the Clevis Pin in the Hydraulic Lift Hand Control Lever Assy is worn approx half way through. This is the pin which the Hydraulic Lift Ram Arm rides against.

Seems that this could put linkage way out of tolerance. Look at center of photo, almost a 1/3 of way up.

 

[DaveDor]

Clevis Pin replaced. Used a 1/4" grade 8 bolt cut to size. Also replaced another badly worn pin in the Draft Control Connecting Link.

Those two repairs brought the system back into specs so I could do the adjustments. Just need to reinstall the lift cover and check operation.

 

[DaveDor]

Cover installed and everything checks so far. Tomorrow will hook up the Three Bottom plow and give it a test.

 

[Kurt-NEPA]

Best of luck with it Dave, Keep us posted. We are all learning.

Kurt

 

[Kurt-NEPA]

Congratulations Dave, Did you notice that your thread just topped 1000 views. I've never seen one that high.

 

[DaveDor]

Wow, I hadn't paid attention. Hope this info helps others.

I read the other day that these older tractors were built with the expectation that repairs would be done on the farm. As you pointed out earlier when you rebuilt your Hydraulic pump - the work really isn't that hard (may need to be creative).
Some times it involves a lot of weight, like ...... I need to inspect/rebuild my brakes! Will need to think through safely handling those rear wheels/tires.

We actually got some rain this AM, so didn't hook up the plow. Will wring out the system tomorrow.

 

[DaveDor]

Hooked up the three bottom this AM and with my [i:f5872d1b29][color=indigo:f5872d1b29]vast experience plowing[/color:f5872d1b29][/i:f5872d1b29] :shock: I think everything is functioning properly.

Now on to minor items like leaking oil pan, new lift & stabilizer bars, brakes and tires!

Kurt and all -Thanks for the help.

 

[Kurt-NEPA]

Great news Dave. I'll bet it feels good to finally get it!

 

[DaveDor]

Very much so! :mrgreen: