Ford 961 No Start

[serieous]

The old Ford is getting tired.
It's a 960 or 961, looks like a 4000,
red paint under the blue, might have
been a selectoshift once, 5 speed now.
Compression 125 to 130. Bit of a bottom end noise.
Carb problems this summer; I removed it
and cleaned it, worked ok for a day or so.
Lately it hasn't wanted to start.
I put new carb, new plugs, wires, coil,
cap, rotor, points, condenser. Kept "throwing
parts at it"; was getting desperate.
Still doesn't want to start. I did get it
going yesterday; and set the timing with a timing
light, and noted that the centrifugal advance works. When it does start; it works pretty good,
it does idle a little irregularly, but it
will idle right down to 475 rpm, seems to have
good power. It is running on all cylinders, pull off each plug wire one by one and you can hear
the miss. But it won't start, cold or hot. Shut it off, and it won't start. It won't even fire.
Sometimes, if I put my hand over the carb to choke
it until it tries to fire, then keep cranking it over, it will eventually catch. Sounds like it's flooded, and will sometimes eventually start. That's the only way it will start. I've tried to check for an intake leak, with a propane cylinder
at the carb and intake manifold connections; but
no difference, doesn't seem to be a leak. I've tried advancing the timing, still no luck. The plugs do get sooty; they have for years, I use a hotter plug, and just clean them every few hours of use. If it had a timing chain I'd check to see if it had jumped a few teeth; but I don't think it has a chain, gears I think? I've tried ether
"Kleen Start", no luck; I even pulled out a couple
of spark plugs and sprayed a little ether directly
into the cylinder, still no luck. There is lots of
battery power, it does crank over quickly.

Any and all suggestions greatly appreciated;
I'm about ready to give up.

Thanks.

 

[old]

ALWAYS trouble shoot then parts or you can add to the problem not fix it.
Check your spark it need to be a blue/white in color and jump a 1/4 inch gap or more at all 4 plugs. Also check the firing order since you replace all that you may have gotten that out of whack. Also when you cleaned that carb did you soak or over night in a good cleaner and then run a wire into all passage ways and blow it out with air and carb cleaner

 

[serieous]

Thanks old.

I've been trying to troubleshoot for a few weeks;
good thing I'm retired, a lot of hours into it.
Old carb was soaked and wired and blown out.
That didn't cure it. Brand new carb on now. That didn't cure it.

Problem did start this time with some water in the air cleaner (tractor lives outside); so I started troubleshooting the carb.

I will check firing order again, thanks.
Spark does seem to be weaker than I expected.
More orange yellow, and I don't think it will
jump 1/4 inch. So I traced all the wires, checked and cleaned all the connections again, and then
put a new coil on, still the same. So I put all new spark plug and coil wires on. Still the same. I've been in the distributor a lot of times, changed condensor several times, and new points, rotor, cap; all new. I'll go back out to the shop in the morning; recheck the firing order, and carefully check the spark, see what colour it is. I've checked voltage at the primary at the coil and dizzy; about 7 volts, tractor is still 6V positive ground.
It does run quite well when it does start, but the plugs do soot up quickly. So, too much fuel, or not enough spark?

Just to note; for many years I've had intermittent ignition problems with this tractor.
Sometimes all works well for weeks or months, sometimes I've been in the distributor several times a summer. And I've always had trouble with the plugs carbonning up.

Thanks, I'll check the firing order, and spark.

 

[old]

You need to check point gap at all 4 lubes of the distributor cam. Make sure you get 0.025 at all 4 or very close. You also might try a hot wire from the battery right to the ignition side of the coil to make sure you do not have a weak ignition switch of bad wires

 

[Sean in PA]

Is it a 6 volt electrical system or has it been converted to 12 volts? Does it have the proper coil and resistor combination (or lack of resistor) for the voltage of the system?

 

[serieous]

Sean,

Still 6V pos ground.
New coil is for 6V Ford (from TSC).
I don't know of a resistor (unless it's
in the coil).

Thanks.

 

[serieous]

Old,

I've only checked point gap at one lobe,
I will check the rest.
I did make up a jumper wire last night
to go directly from battery to coil.
I'll head out to the shop this morning.
(Minus 4 F out there this morning, I've
been dragging my feet.)

Thanks

 

[serieous]

UPDATE

I had tried to start it a lot yesterday afternoon, and had worn the battery down.
This morning I put a 30 amp battery charger on it;
and left it a couple of hours. The same as I've done a lot of other times in the last few weeks.
I just went out now and tried to start it; it started right up. A pull of the choke, a push on the starter, and instant start. I shut it off and tried again. Success. And again. And again.
The only difference I can see to other days I have tried, is it's much colder today, about 5F in the shop right now. I've had the charger on it before, lots of times.

I didn't touch anything else; just hooked up the charger. Negative to battery post, positive to transmission.

I've taken the charger off now, and it still starts right up, and runs well. I'll recheck grounds and connections.

The battery is quite old, but it does turn the engine over vigorously.

 

[old]

Of the battery is old good chance the CCA is way down which means low amps and volts so yep right after or with the charger on can make a difference since that is when the battery will have the max amp and volts. May well be time for a new battery. I would pull it and have it load checked at an auto parts tore so see if it is in fact still a good battery

 

[serieous]

I spent some time going back over connections,
cleaning, sanding, etc. At each connection I started it again. Always started perfectly. I only let it run for a few seconds each time (fumes inside), I didn't charge it again today.
I put the old coil back on. Started fine.
I started it about 20 times today.

I did find something interesting tonight. I stripped the old electrical tape off what I thought was a splice in a power wire under the "dash"; it was actually a rusty old light
socket with a broken bulb, the bulb for the low
amp red dash light. It has never worked in the 10 or so years I've had it, now I know why, there was no bulb. That could have been causing problems for all this time. I'll see if I can clean it up and put a bulb in, or put a new socket and bulb.

Or maybe I can hook an ammeter up to the wires,
instead of the bulb?

I do have the battery out and ready to test in the
morning.

I think I'm making progress.

Thanks

 

[showcrop]

(quoted from post at 19:20:14 12/29/14) You need to check point gap at all 4 lubes of the distributor cam. Make sure you get 0.025 at all 4 or very close. You also might try a hot wire from the battery right to the ignition side of the coil to make sure you do not have a weak ignition switch of bad wires

Old, first time I have heard that. Do the lobes wear unevenly or is it to check for a bent shaft?

 

[showcrop]

What makes it "seem flooded"? I have a 961 and it needs plenty of choke to start when cold. Don't be afraid to take a spark plug reading when it doesn't start so that you can tell if it is getting enough gas or not. Don't suspect flooding unless the plugs are VERY wet. The idle is supposed to be uneven. The owners manual calls it a rolling idle.

 

[serieous]

Showcrop, thanks for the reply.
I don't think fuel is the issue;
it's only flooding because the spark isn't
strong enough.
I've found an issue in the wiring, and am
concentrating on that.
Just in to warm up my fingers, it was 0 F
out in the shop this morning.
Thanks

 

[old]

Distributor bushings where and can cause point gap to change from one lobe to another so you got miss fire and other odd problems

 

[showcrop]

(quoted from post at 08:50:16 12/31/14) Showcrop, thanks for the reply.
I don't think fuel is the issue;
it's only flooding because the spark isn't
strong enough.
I've found an issue in the wiring, and am
concentrating on that.
Just in to warm up my fingers, it was 0 F
out in the shop this morning.
Thanks

What makes it "seem" flooded?

 

[serieous]

UPDATE.

I did go all out and buy a new battery;
I'll keep the old one for my Jubilee that's
coming back home this winter.

I've cleaned and sanded all the wire connections;
regulator, starter, generator, key, ground, coil,
relay, terminal block, everything.

It's starting and running well now.

Thanks for the help.