Ford flathead bearing problem

[Britcheflee]

Well, got my old Mercury running and out and about for a drive - stopped at the transmission guy I know for a chat - his friend was looking in the window of my car whilst it was idling - said - guess your oil pressure gauge does not work? I said it shows low at idle but then goes up when rpm goes up - he said it was way too low then listened to engine - 'hear that knock?' that's the bearing worn out. Gave me info of a guy who works on old flatheads - took it to him - yep, the main bearing is totally worn out. Remove engine, new bearings, valves, bore cylinders and more...total cost MINIMUM $3800. Not sure what to do. Cannot justify that kind of money at the moment - could sell my old bike I have for about that much.
The car has the v8 flathead. 1953 Mercury. Thinking of option to remove engine and take to shop for rebuild - might be cheaper?
I don't think this is something I have equipment or skill to do myself.
Lee

 

[36 Coupe]

Total ripoff.I put bearings in a friends 52 Ford in his driveway a lot of years ago.He had bad pressure loss when the engine warmed up.Put in a new oil pump because the pump felt rough when turned by hand.Did a commpression check before I pulled the pan down.The pre 48 bearings are expensive because they are hard to find.

 

[36 Coupe]

Did a search on a 51 mercury.Engine overhaul kit. 400.00. bearing set 175.00.Looks like 800 bucks for parts. 3 grand for labor.

 

[W_B]

(quoted from post at 12:47:50 05/20/13) Did a search on a 51 mercury.Engine overhaul kit. 400.00. bearing set 175.00.Looks like 800 bucks for parts. 3 grand for labor.

For $3,000 I think I could acquire some skills and tools to do the job!

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 08:02:02 05/20/13)

(quoted from post at 12:47:50 05/20/13) Did a search on a 51 mercury.Engine overhaul kit. 400.00. bearing set 175.00.Looks like 800 bucks for parts. 3 grand for labor.

For $3,000 I think I could acquire some skills and tools to do the job!

If you do the job right it's going to be a lot more than just the $800 for the hard parts. What do you think the drop-off machine shop charges alone are to hot tank, magnaflux, rebore, and grind valves and seats on a flathead V8 block? By the time you include a reground crank you are probably close to a grand if not more.

TOH

 

[Britcheflee]

The engine runs fine, does not smoke and I just drive it occasionally to events and local winery - can the job be done like the ford tractor by removing the lower bearings, plastigauging and putting in new bearing shells? Is that what causes the low oil pressure? What you explain is exactly the problem - med oil pressure at cold, remains up when hot but drops right down to almost zero at idle.

Lee

 

[Britcheflee]

(quoted from post at 07:08:22 05/20/13)

The engine runs fine, does not smoke and I just drive it occasionally to events and local winery - can the job be done like the ford tractor by removing the lower bearings, plastigauging and putting in new bearing shells? Is that what causes the low oil pressure? What you explain is exactly the problem - med oil pressure at cold, remains up when hot but drops right down to almost zero at idle.

Lee

Sorry, remains up at higher rpm when hot

 

[Ken(Ark)]

(quoted from post at 10:08:22 05/20/13)

The engine runs fine, does not smoke and I just drive it occasionally to events and local winery - can the job be done like the ford tractor by removing the lower bearings, plastigauging and putting in new bearing shells? Is that what causes the low oil pressure? What you explain is exactly the problem - med oil pressure at cold, remains up when hot but drops right down to almost zero at idle.

Lee

You won't know what machine work needs to be done until it gets torn apart . Personally I have a problem with getting a blind quote that's high , which means it won't be a penny cheaper if no machine work in necessary .

Taking it to a professional shop is a double edge sword , they will stand behind their work , not take short cuts , and probably do a perfect job , but they have to pay their bills too . You will get what you pay for but in this case it it is more than you want .

I would do a compression check and see what those numbers are . With the situation you have described , a fresh set of rod and main bearings might last you for the remainder of your ownership .

Since you know the history of this motor and it is running smoothly , I can say as a shade tree guru that your heads and block probably don't need milled but the guy at the machine shop would most likely tell you they do .

You might ask your mechanic about a price to do just that . Problem is the math , replace bearings in "X" hours for $500 or rebuild motor in "3X" hours for $2500 . They have to keep the doors open so that means pushing the higher ratio jobs . I have to do that in the welding business or I find myself using my tools and making $10 an hour helping a buddy out .

As I get older I find it is easier for me to pull the motor , put it on a stand so I can rotate it to do lower bearings . While its out I like to hit the freeze plugs and other minor things . My son & I drove an 8N into the shop last Wednesday morning , pulled the motor , rebuilt the oil pump , replaced the rod bearings (mains were OK , I checked them all ) and drove her out about 4 pm . I really had to fight mission creep but I didn't want to tie up the shop for a month , especially since the tractor was running good other wise .

 

[Britcheflee]

hmmmm very tempting - I will need to rent an engine hoist and stand - problem is I don't have a good location to do the work.

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 10:09:13 05/20/13)

(quoted from post at 07:08:22 05/20/13)

The engine runs fine, does not smoke and I just drive it occasionally to events and local winery - can the job be done like the ford tractor by removing the lower bearings, plastigauging and putting in new bearing shells? Is that what causes the low oil pressure? What you explain is exactly the problem - med oil pressure at cold, remains up when hot but drops right down to almost zero at idle.

Lee

Sorry, remains up at higher rpm when hot

I'm assuming the $3800 was a turnkey job - you give them the car, they R&R the engine and do a complete rebuild with all new fluids, belts, filters, points, plugs etc., and you get the car back ready to drive. If done right you wind up with a remanufactured engine in good tune ready for another 100K.

Extremely low oil pressure (near zero) probably means more than one bearing needs to be replaced. You can certainly drop the pan and replace the main and rod bearings without any other work. That presumes the crankshaft, camshaft, and camshaft bearings haven't suffered enough wear or damage to negate the tighter clearances from the new bearings.

In other words a quick and dirty main/rod bearing replacement may or may not get you sufficient oil pressure and the life span of that gain will certainly be less than a fully reconditioned short block. You pays your money and takes your chances.

TOH

 

[Bob]

For the amount you drive it, try some 15-40 oil.

 

[Duner Wi]

There is some stuff in the archives on this 9N board.Here is a sample. If it were mine I might shim it if new bearing don't bring it into spec.
I have shimmed new bearings and mixed standards and .001 and .002s. If you don't want to spend money and have time it works.

http://search.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=nboard&th=790976

 

[Dell (WA)]

Lee........change yer OIL to 50wt detergent. (racing oil). 5-qts is CHEAP verse $3500 overhaul. Iff'n this was yer daily driver, might be different advice. ........oily Dell

 

[Britcheflee]

You know Dell, I just might do that - bet I have only driven it 100 miles in the past year or so - you can hear the knock if you listen for it....does not sound horrible by any means. Eventually will get it done but for now just cannot justify dumping the money into it.

lee

 

[Spooke]

$3800 sounds like a good place to strart to me. I would also tell you to have 6K plus in your pocket when you come to pick it up I would not want your to come up short.

I work on a 37 ford with a 51 flathead it does not have OP at idle and has a very low deep knock at idle, The OP does pick up with slight throttle. Its worn out a set of bearings is not going to fix it, all they do is drive it 30 miles a year are less. They can afford another engine when it blows.

 

[Spooke]

(reply to post at 11:10:24 05/20/13)

Why notgo for the kill 70wt. If 50's good then 70 wt has got to be better..... Right.

 

[Welding man]

We always used STP when they started knocking. Put 2 cans in.

 

[36 Coupe]

Still aint 4 grand..

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 20:30:02 05/20/13) Still aint 4 grand..

This ain't 1940 Coupe.

Engine parts, plugs, belts, fluids, etc. - $1000
Machine shop charges - $1000
Labor to R&R the engine, strip it down, ship it off to the machine shop, and reassemble it after machine work - 20 hours @ $75.00/hour shop rate - $1500

I can easily see a $3800 price for a complete professional engine rebuild. Five years ago a simple R&R and rebuild of the New Process transfer case on my 96 Dodge pickup cost me $3000 and that didn't require any machine shop work. That was the low bid of four....

 

[36 Coupe]

I would check the cylinder bores for taper and grind the valves by hand just the way we did it when we worked for 40 bucks a week.In any case the oil pump is suspect.

 

[36 Coupe]

Stp will bring oil pressure up 5/10 pounds.I drive a well worn 96 F150, wear overalls, dont shave every day,dont give a R/A what people think of me.Old cars,trucks and tractors should be enjoyed, not clean your wallet.

 

[36 Coupe]

Professional crook,thats what going on now.

 

[Spooke]

(reply to post at 17:46:03 05/20/13)

And I bet your thought you were doing very well at $40 a week.

Things have changed.

A good wrench makes 50 to 100K but he's not going to do it rebuilding old worn out flat-heads. It may take a good hand job when it was 6 years old but at 60 its going to take more than rubbing on it and shinning it up.

It would be worth his time to trailer it over to your place what will you do it for a quote not a estimate. Lets take away your mail box money and what ever benefits you are now getting from your entitlements you have to live on what you make off this job. Figure in a mortgage and sending a few kids to collage. I would like it to have a nice warranty and my worn out Ford insured while its at your place..

I will let you off the hook give a professional warranted insured quote are a normal guru estimate.

This all for the fun of it

 

[Ken(Ark)]

(quoted from post at 20:56:59 05/20/13) Professional crook,thats what going on now.

I got an entry level inside job for $12 an hour , enjoy the air conditioning , don' get my hands dirty , heath / vision / dental insurance really cheap , free life / disability insurance , 200 hrs paid time off a year , matched 401K contributions , work three 12hr days with a four day weekend , and I don't have to keep up with the book keeping .

I let the last of my employees go at the end of '08 . My Workman's comp was $1500 yr per employee . I had my overhead cut to the bone and still had to produce $5K a week in sales to break even . My employees moved on but I still have a monthly payment on back taxes . I did not have any bad debts from customers , major equipment failure , major warranty work , or other disaster , and overall I barely broke even in the long run (10 yrs )

So who would want to take the risk of running a shop to make basic wages after all of the bills are paid ? How much is his time worth doing the tasks other than bending a wrench ?



10 years ago I paid $1500 to get my 4X4 700R4 R&R'd and 8 months later they did it again for free .

$1500 labor for a complete PROFESSIONAL rebuild is cheap , especially since nobody is forcing you to have it done .

 

[Spooke]

(reply to post at 18:50:38 05/20/13)

As you know you have to take the good with the bad, someone has to pay for the bad that someone is everyone that makes a contribution to the cause.

Case in point. Its 10 hr just to Remove the trans I came out of retirement and rebuilt a trans in a 2005 Chrysler that had a bad torque converter. Their was nothing wrong the the trans it was a kill the TC was bad. 5 mounts later it was back with the same problem the TC was bad so I gave him credit for the kill and brought a Chrysler re-man maybe I meet my match The Chrysler re-man had the same issue as the original and the one I rebuilt :shock:. In the end a PCM fixed it before it took out the Chrysler re-man. I have 60hr. in it when all in and done. I don't think I made $40.

Theirs so much these days you don't have control of even on a worn out flat-head.

 

[ZANE]

I've got a 1951 Ford flat head four door sedan I've had since 1956.

The original engine cracked the block between the valve and cylinder on one cylinder. I welded it. Weld and valve didn't like each other and it skipped the rest of it's life with me. Oil pressure at idle was non existant for at least 20 years in that old engine. When I got the Sear's rebuilt engine and replaced it in the car I put the skipping engine in a 51 F 2 and drove it for years. The flat head rod bearings are a different animal than any other engine. The rods turn on both the bearings OD and the bearing turns on the cranshaft. Only two shells for two rods that run together. There are no keeper tabs to hold the bearing shells. They float between the rods and the crank journals.

I wouldn's worry about that low oil pressure.

Run it!

Tell that rip off shop to go to you know where!

Zane

 

[Ken(Ark)]

As you know you have to take the good with the bad, someone has to pay for the bad that someone is everyone that makes a contribution to the cause.

Case in point. Its 10 hr just to Remove the trans I came out of retirement and rebuilt a trans in a 2005 Chrysler that had a bad torque converter. Their was nothing wrong the the trans it was a kill the TC was bad. 5 mounts later it was back with the same problem the TC was bad so I gave him credit for the kill and brought a Chrysler re-man maybe I meet my match The Chrysler re-man had the same issue as the original and the one I rebuilt :shock:. In the end a PCM fixed it before it took out the Chrysler re-man. I have 60hr. in it when all in and done. I don't think I made $40.

Theirs so much these days you don't have control of even on a worn out flat-head.[/quote]

You are guaranteed to make a profit if you have a guru badge . :wink: The rest of us have to warranty all of the bearings in the motor , not just the front one .

 

[L.B,]

Some heavy weight oil and Molybdenum, you can chase the facts and use of it with a Google search.

 

[Jock(OR)]

Lee, if you don't drive the car very much, you
have more options. Here is a story that is
enlightening: I have a friend that 40 years ago
had a 40-horse Kahrman Ghia that had a rod knock.
He was a pilot and decided that AeroShell oil was
good for air cooled airplanes, so it must be good
for air cooled automobiles. He put AeroShell 60
in it (60 airplane oil is about equal to 30W
automobile oil)and that quieted the knock. A
couple of years of daily driving later he tore
down the engine and found a spun rod bearing! The
aviation oil had kept the bearing from spinning
any more.

Lesson: high quality oil makes a big difference.

 

[36 Coupe]

That tells me the oil pump is worn.Worn bearings lose oil pressure when the oil heats up.Your engine is not doing that.

 

[36 Coupe]

Zane,Ford stopped using the floating bearings in 1949.Some say the 8ba engine was used in some 48 trucks.

 

[Spooke]

I don't need a badge I did not earn it only goes to your head. Its a make-believe tag that everyone that did not earn it should be ashamed of. If I ever get their I will cash it in and start over.
I can understand if you never earned anywhere else you would hold on tight to your badge (like a rent a cop).

 

[36 Coupe]

My brother in law shimmed bearings in a Plymouth while he was going to collage.Worked 10 weeks and went to collage 10 weeks.He used aluminum foil.He just retired at 75.Worked for the same co all those years.

 

[Spooke]

(reply to post at 19:26:08 05/20/13)

Guess what I did not know that never been past the head gaskets on a V8 flathead. My uncle who is the best wrench I have ever know did tell me when I asked him to look at the 37 he said those never did have OP at idle. He's one who never would tell you why you had to figure it out on your own.

 

[Spooke]

(reply to post at 04:50:53 05/21/13)

I did that one time and it stayed together till they could come up with enough money to rebuild it right. It was a late 80's (guess) Pontiac trans-am 5.0 are 5.7 v8.

 

[36 Coupe]

I am thinking many posters never had hard times.I was never that lucky.I had enough money to replace just the main bearings in a flat head Ford.That brought the oil pressure back from zero.

 

[36 Coupe]

Dont pull the engine.Change the oil pump.

 

[Spooke]

(quoted from post at 16:21:47 05/21/13) I am thinking many posters never had hard times.I was never that lucky.I had enough money to replace just the main bearings in a flat head Ford.That brought the oil pressure back from zero.

That's understandable if you do the work yourself. I think you would find it hard to find someone who does this for a living this day and time to take it on.

Their was a post a week are so ago were a guru dropped the pan and looked at one bearing and declared the rest good to go. I am glad he's not in my time zone. As for your suggestion replace the pump. It sounds like a wild guess to me from a man that's tight with his money when the pump can be diagnosed good are worn out. Even if the pump is worn out it will not overcome a worn crank. I have seen quite a few engines were all the bearings looked good as new except one crank journal that slung a rod thru the side of the block. I have seen engines that had a deep down knock and all the bearings and oil pump looked good ( they did not suffer from low OP tho. I have replaced the mains in Toyota V6's with 200K on them that had a main bearing knock I don't remember if it was the uppers are lowers but one are the other the bearings looked like they had never touched the crank
:shock: The fix was to go up one size on the bearings that's it just replace the mains one size up :shock: :shock:...

I can ramble on all day about what I have seen it drives some gurus mad as $ll tho :lol: I have made my share of mistakes and pass along what I have actually experenced not what I have read BTDT. Theirs no reason to guess at it are recommend something you have never done (not talking about you) are hack it up just to make you look good to the uneducated .

 

[36 Coupe]

To sum up.If customers cant afford your inflated prices the car or truck will be junked.Car dealers love high repair prices because it sells new cars.My son in law just bought a used Chevy truck for 14 grand.They wouldnt take his truck on a trade in because the rocker panels were rusted.I took a close look at the old truck.Chassis is very good,all other body parts are ok.Truck has 144k on the speedometer.Tires are about half worn.Tubular cross menmbers are full of salt and sand.I told him 3 years ago to flush them out with a garden hose.My 96 Ford F150 was in bad shape on the chassis and spring hangers at 190k.I took the box off and plated the chassis.Made a new cross member, replaced two gas tanks..Now the wonderful low milage truck he just bought lost a front wheel bearing.All GM owners know this is a common problem.Usually happens at 100k.He was away.I looked at the old hub.Crusty rust says the new truck has been over the stated 46k.The high quote he got on the rocker panels spooked him into buying another truck. New rockers cost 80 bucks each. I would be interested in buying his old truck if it had an 8 foot box.I haul 16 foot lumber so a 6 foot box is worthless to me.I have noticed that the increased price of lumber is cutting my picnic table sales.I know it cost money to run a shop.Had a TV shop since 1968 here.TV business went to China along with most high paying jobs.

 

[Ken(Ark)]

Dont pull the engine.Change the oil pump.

There's good oil pressure at higher rpm , so your advise it to just blindly change the oil pump ? I know I should not question a Guru , sorry .


I would recommend taking it in stages ,

1 - change the oil with a thicker blend and see if that helps since the OP only drives a few miles locally .

2 - If that still isn't working , find an honest use car lot mechanic that can work it in during the slow time . They are masters of the 12 month patch ( which is what you are really looking for )

3 - Get a Professional , pay a fair price , and drive out your equity (5K miles plus a year )

 

[Spooke]

Their are plenty of folks willing to pay its a supply and demand thing. As you know its manual labor your pay is based on production (I know that's a forgotten word)

It would not make me mad if a old classic car never came in my door again I don't need the glory anymore.

 

[36 Coupe]

My Indian motorcycle used 50 wt oil.Oil was in a tank above the engine.

 

[MIDennis]

1953 was the last year Ford made a good engine! FYI, if it were me, I would enroll in a continuing education class on engine repair. You must provide your own engine and parts. This gives you access to all the right equipment and expertise to rebuild it yourself. Just remember to use aftermarket adjustable valve lifters and have harden seats put in the block. You get to learn and have fun at the same time.