Ford forklift problem again

Charlie M

Well-known Member
I'm back to working on our Ford forklift based on a Ford 4000 gas tractor, 4 cylinder we have at the rail road depo where I volunteer.. Had it running last spring after having to replace points and condenser and having to remove some cork gasket caught inside the carb. Left it running for our normal mechanic guy to fix timing and adjust carb and haven't heard it run since. Problem this time is no spark. Problem is our normal mechanic guy can't figure it out and is a "throw parts at it" kind of guy so he finally gave up and was asked if I could take a look at it. Found the reasons for no spark (3 issues) and now have a good spark but still won't start. During all the confusion with different people working on it the distributor had been turned all over the place and has been actually out of the tractor. It may have got put back wrong and the tractor had been cranked so I'm thinking that is where the problem is but I'm looking for a bit of help on that problem. Assuming the distributor was out and the tractor cranked how does it get put back on correctly. I've had the #1 cylinder on top dead center on the compression stroke as needed as part of trying to get the distributor in the correct position. Any advice on how to know its installed correctly? I don't think this is a fuel problem since it was running last spring and nothing has changed with fuel. I do get some smoke and occasional pop when cranking.
 
I know you said it pretty clear, but TDC on compression means you turned it until it pushed pressure out of the spark plug hole and then you lined up the timing marks to TDC, do you agree with that? Then just get the rotor pointing to where number one plug wire terminal is in the cap. The orientation of the distributor can be wherever the plugs wires feel most at home when you hold the cap in the air with all the wires plugged in it. Or if you remember where the terminal that passes through the distributor was when you put the points in put it back the same spot. Then when you get the distributor in and the rotor lined up and the wire back on the coil from the points, turn the distributor housing until with the key on a test light on the wire out of the distributor just lights. Or you can use a piece of paper between the points and turn it until it just pulls out, key on not needed for the last method. With either method snug down the distributor at this point. That should do it. Sorry the structure of some of those sentences isn’t the greatest.
 
You like my paper idea , lol. And to note , when doing the paper thing u should retard it a bit meaning turn the dist the same way the rotor turns. Then as u are advancing it by turning it the opposite way u stop right as soon as the light lights or the paper will pull out. You are now timed just as good as a timing light will show you. You need no special tools to time an engine.
 
I'm back to working on our Ford forklift based on a Ford 4000 gas tractor, 4 cylinder we have at the rail road depo where I volunteer.. Had it running last spring after having to replace points and condenser and having to remove some cork gasket caught inside the carb. Left it running for our normal mechanic guy to fix timing and adjust carb and haven't heard it run since. Problem this time is no spark. Problem is our normal mechanic guy can't figure it out and is a "throw parts at it" kind of guy so he finally gave up and was asked if I could take a look at it. Found the reasons for no spark (3 issues) and now have a good spark but still won't start. During all the confusion with different people working on it the distributor had been turned all over the place and has been actually out of the tractor. It may have got put back wrong and the tractor had been cranked so I'm thinking that is where the problem is but I'm looking for a bit of help on that problem. Assuming the distributor was out and the tractor cranked how does it get put back on correctly. I've had the #1 cylinder on top dead center on the compression stroke as needed as part of trying to get the distributor in the correct position. Any advice on how to know its installed correctly? I don't think this is a fuel problem since it was running last spring and nothing has changed with fuel. I do get some smoke and occasional pop when cranking.
Here's the procedure per the Ford Service Manual.
20241008_215029.jpg
 
If I'm reading correctly what you guys are saying then I think I have accomplished that. To be clear on the top dead center thing I had someone nudged the key with my finger over the #1 hole until air blowed out. Its 12 volts so can't stop quick as I'd like but once the air blew out I backed up the engine until the timing marks were correct. At that point I saw where the rotor was in relationship to the cap and that is how I put the spark plug wires back for #1 plug. I then static timed the unit by removing the plug from #1 hole and watched for spark as I turned the cap. Seems like that should get me close enough to get the tractor to run where I could then fine tune it with a timing light. I have firing order 1-2-4-3 going clockwise around the cap. Seems like something I'm missing here.
 
If I'm reading correctly what you guys are saying then I think I have accomplished that. To be clear on the top dead center thing I had someone nudged the key with my finger over the #1 hole until air blowed out. Its 12 volts so can't stop quick as I'd like but once the air blew out I backed up the engine until the timing marks were correct. At that point I saw where the rotor was in relationship to the cap and that is how I put the spark plug wires back for #1 plug. I then static timed the unit by removing the plug from #1 hole and watched for spark as I turned the cap. Seems like that should get me close enough to get the tractor to run where I could then fine tune it with a timing light. I have firing order 1-2-4-3 going clockwise around the cap. Seems like something I'm missing here.
That sounds right, where are you checking for spark? Try checking by pulling # 1 spark plug, grounding the body with a jumper, and looking for spark at the gap when cranking the engine with the ignition on. Do you have the little spring clip that goes on top of the distributor shaft and under the rotor installed? If you remove the carb intake tube and spray some starter fluid into the carb intake then crank does it fire?
 
I checked the spark as you are saying except I haven't done it by cranking the tractor, just setting it turning the cap with the #1 piston and timing marks in the correct position.. As for the clip under the rotor, I didn't know such a thing existed until I was watching a you tube video last night. If that is missing how does it affect the distributor function. I don't recall seeing the rotor having a sloppy fit on the shaft. My experience is all with Farmall tractors and this Ford has several differences that I've had to learn as I go along. Maybe this is why I only own one brand of tractor. LOL
 
checked the spark as you are saying except I haven't done it by cranking the tractor, just setting it turning the cap with the #1 piston and timing marks in the correct position.. As for the clip under the rotor, I didn't know such a thing existed until I was watching a you tube video last night. If that is missing how does it affect the distributor function. I don't recall seeing the rotor having a sloppy fit on the shaft. My experience is all with Farmall tractors and this Ford has several differences that I've had to learn as I go along. Maybe this is why I only own one brand of tractor. LOL
Yes it needs the clip or rotor will be sloppy and timing imprecise. Classic part number is 8N12213, link below to YT offering. Internet search says in a pinch add padding - paper, foil, or tape until you can get the proper part.
YT 8N12213
 
That sounds right, where are you checking for spark? Try checking by pulling # 1 spark plug, grounding the body with a jumper, and looking for spark at the gap when cranking the engine with the ignition on. Do you have the little spring clip that goes on top of the distributor shaft and under the rotor installed? If you remove the carb intake tube and spray some starter fluid into the carb intake then crank does it fire?
Take this one step farther and hold your thumb or finger over the #1 plug hole. When cranking the compression push and the spark should be happening together. I am kind of betting that as much as you don’t want to you’ll be going back into the carb again. Does it have a sediment bowl on it? If so is the screen in the top of it?
 
A sloppy rotor will not affect timing!
I am going to respectfully disagree. A missing clip can affect timing if the rotor sticks one way or the other on the shaft. The rotor has to point at the cap contact at the correct time it passes, or it will not be in time. Without the clip keeping the rotor location fixed on the shaft it can throw the timing off. If the clip doesn't affect the timing, why is it needed? why did you include the bit about padding paper or such as a patch until the correct clip is installed? Replacing a missing clip has led to some engines starting.
 
I am going to respectfully disagree. A missing clip can affect timing if the rotor sticks one way or the other on the shaft. The rotor has to point at the cap contact at the correct time it passes, or it will not be in time. Without the clip keeping the rotor location fixed on the shaft it can throw the timing off. If the clip doesn't affect the timing, why is it needed? why did you include the bit about padding paper or such as a patch until the correct clip is installed? Replacing a missing clip has led to some engines starting.
I agree Jim, I was at the Oxford County fair a few years ago and they couldn't get their 8N running to use on the race track. They had just installed new points. I went to look at it and the first thing I noticed was the clip being missing. After checking the points to make sure they were gapped properly I used a piece of a match book cover in place of the clip. The tractor started right up and they were able to get through the day with it.
 
I agree Jim, I was at the Oxford County fair a few years ago and they couldn't get their 8N running to use on the race track. They had just installed new points. I went to look at it and the first thing I noticed was the clip being missing. After checking the points to make sure they were gapped properly I used a piece of a match book cover in place of the clip. The tractor started right up and they were able to get through the day with it.
Thank you. I have experienced the same with a couple Ford distributors missing the clip, that's why I say a sloppy rotor will affect timing.
 
What mhb is saying is what seems to be happening. We've had the rotor off a 100 times so its entirely possible. Next work day is next Tuesday down there so that will be the first thing I check. I'll get back to you guys if that is what the problem is.
 
It's not actually the timing that is affected as the points still fire when they should but the rotor is not in the proper place to transfer the spark through the cap to the plugs.
True it does not affect the timing of the points; I agree with that. I look at the rotor being out of the designed location due to a missing clip, in relation to the points, as effecting the timing of when the rotor passes by the distributor cap posts, to the point the spark is delivered in the wrong location (not in line with the cap posts) as being out of time. Poor wording on my part.
 
How many degrees does the rotor turn without the clip? Does the end move more than 3/4 inch? I think if it has a good hot spark it will jump that gap & fire the plug.
 
How many degrees does the rotor turn without the clip? Does the end move more than 3/4 inch? I think if it has a good hot spark it will jump that gap & fire the plug.
I never figured out the degrees the rotor can move on the shaft if the clip is missing, but I have experienced the no start with missing clips a few times (thrown out with the old rotor by people that didn't understand their purpose). The engines started right up after installing a clip, or temporarily shimming the rotor as Mark described. Perhaps voltage being pulled down during cranking caused a weaker spark, but apparently the spark didn't jump the gap when the rotor was out of place in those cases.
 
I'm back to working on our Ford forklift based on a Ford 4000 gas tractor, 4 cylinder we have at the rail road depo where I volunteer.. Had it running last spring after having to replace points and condenser and having to remove some cork gasket caught inside the carb. Left it running for our normal mechanic guy to fix timing and adjust carb and haven't heard it run since. Problem this time is no spark. Problem is our normal mechanic guy can't figure it out and is a "throw parts at it" kind of guy so he finally gave up and was asked if I could take a look at it. Found the reasons for no spark (3 issues) and now have a good spark but still won't start. During all the confusion with different people working on it the distributor had been turned all over the place and has been actually out of the tractor. It may have got put back wrong and the tractor had been cranked so I'm thinking that is where the problem is but I'm looking for a bit of help on that problem. Assuming the distributor was out and the tractor cranked how does it get put back on correctly. I've had the #1 cylinder on top dead center on the compression stroke as needed as part of trying to get the distributor in the correct position. Any advice on how to know its installed correctly? I don't think this is a fuel problem since it was running last spring and nothing has changed with fuel. I do get some smoke and occasional pop when cranking.
Define Good Spark ? it must be proved beyond a doubt. It takes 5 thinks for an engine to run Yes 5 there are no givens and all must be proved beyond a doubt.

  • Fuel
  • Air its not a given
  • Spark
  • Compression
  • Exhaust

Why I jumped on Good spark it’s the easiest thing to check and the most misunderstood. What most call good spark is misleading until its proven beyond a doubt its suspect #1. I’ve had seasoned mechanics look at me like a deer staring into a headlight when I questioned them about spark. I’ve been bit by questionable good spark. It’s easy to prove beyond a doubt and until its proven beyoud a doubt I will not fall into the trap.
 

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